1324 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

(observes)

Dat Johansson 

Modifié par AresKeith, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:26 .

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmmm. So would this person still generally like people for who they are and what they can be, just not want to interact terribly much with them on a day-to-day level, but still want what's best for them?

I think one of the most difficult lessons a hero must learn is that other people are not like him and cannot be made to be like him. That what he sees as the most obvious thing in the world is incomprehensible to others. Of course, this lesson is generally learned long before the story begins.

So...I suppose the answer must ultimately be 'no.' He gets along with people well enough on the surface, but has to accept that people are what they are, and he is what is is.

I confess that this doesn't seem terribly useful in the long run. While it's true that heroes stand apart, one cannot stand for moral concepts in isolation, for a concept unapplied is worthless. The hero cannot put the value of principle ahead of the value of life, for what is principle but service to life?

[eyezonlyii]

David7204 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmmm. So would this person still generally like people for who they are and what they can be, just not want to interact terribly much with them on a day-to-day level, but still want what's best for them?

I think one of the most difficult lessons a hero must learn is that other people are not like him and cannot be made to be like him. That what he sees as the most obvious thing in the world is incomprehensible to others. Of course, this lesson is generally learned long before the story begins.

So...I suppose the answer must ultimately be 'no.' He gets along with people well enough on the surface, but has to accept that people are what they are, and he is what is is.

good thing everyone has their own perceptions and definitions of heroes, because there is no way I could stand a person like that. 

[Jorji Costava]

wolfhowwl wrote...

That was revealed to be meddling by someone high up on the Mass Effect team. They thought it would be "cool."

I read the same thing, in that interview with Chris L'Etoile that circulated around here a couple months back. Either way, I wish it hadn't been done. It set up some of what I regard as mis-steps on Rannoch.

David7204 wrote...

The core of the hero is competence.

For real competence to exist, (the kind of competence necessary for the hero to succeed in his adventures) it must be based on love, and on respect. The hero has great, great love for the tools he posseses, and the tools he eventually sees with future companions. Tools such as strength, as courage, as intelligence, and as honor. The hero thus embodies such traits. They're allowed to flourish within him because of his immense love and respect, whereas they wilt in others. 

The 'normal' world around the hero is dishonest and corrupt. Not overwhelmingly corrupt, but enough that it's as if the hero is crooked. In fact, he's perfectly straight. The world around him is crooked.

So when the hero looks around the normal world, and what he sees is imitations and subtitutions of that which he has overwhelmingly love and respect for. And his reaction is contempt. Or at best, innocent indifference. You cannot feel such love for the real thing and accept the imitation.

It's not a world he accepts. So he makes a choice. He seperates himself from the world. And he suffers for that choice. And thus, he's lonely. He's unsuccessful in romance. He's generally reletively poor. He could have everything the normal world has to offer him, but chooses not to take it. Because he has something far more valuble within himself.

It's the exact same choice that Shepard made. That Garrus made. That Liara made. That Thane, that Miranda, that Samara made.

Sounds pretty much like Plato's Allegory of the Cave to me. It's a fine story, but I'm not quite sure why any story must fit into that basic template to be considered properly 'heroic,' or why it should matter to our judgment of a story's quality that it does fit within such a template.

[David7204]

Xilizhra wrote...

I confess that this doesn't seem terribly useful in the long run. While it's true that heroes stand apart, one cannot stand for moral concepts in isolation, for a concept unapplied is worthless. The hero cannot put the value of principle ahead of the value of life, for what is principle but service to life?

He can and he does.

That's exactly why the hero is generally unsuccessful, and honestly, wasting his life at the beginning of the story. He stands for a principle despite gaining utterly nothing from it. It was never a question of benefit.

Modifié par David7204, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Deverz]

*sigh*

Another thread railroaded by David into a pointless argument of semantics.

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I confess that this doesn't seem terribly useful in the long run. While it's true that heroes stand apart, one cannot stand for moral concepts in isolation, for a concept unapplied is worthless. The hero cannot put the value of principle ahead of the value of life, for what is principle but service to life?

He can and he does.

That's exactly why the hero is generally unsuccessful, and honestly, wasting his life at the beginning of the story. He stands for a principle despite gaining utterly nothing from it. It was never a question of benefit.

But... standing for a principle without helping anyone else is an utter betrayal of the concept of principle to begin with. All it amounts to is standing in a corner with your superior beliefs without applying them in any way. Surely the hero would learn to better actually apply this over the course of the story... otherwise, there wouldn't be much of a story to begin with, if the hero never left their shell.

[Mr.House]

Deverz wrote...

*sigh*

Another thread railroaded by David into a pointless argument of semantics.

Every thread must be about heroism!

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

I go can through the reasoning, if you would like. Why such a path exists. It's several steps, but not that complicated.

The mere fact that it's Superman kissing the bride and not Clark Kent supports me.

Clark Kent had the Kents. Not alone, in fact they've been universally attributed as the very reason for his heroic and moral character. Ever read an AU were Superman was adopted by someone else? Drastically different character.

[Clayless]

Hmm even though I've never given it a moment of thought before now, it is kinda weird that Liara is a 106 year old virgin. This thread convinced me that they should have removed that aspect from her.

[David7204]

If the hero was able to apply the principles, he would in an instant.

But he can't. There's nothing he can do or say to make people like him. Nothing he can do or say to make them recognize him. There's a line between him and the rest of the world that can't be crossed. It's something he cannot compromise. He seeks the ideal, and nothing less.

And yes. That means a tragic, tragic waste. An unbelievable loss to the world. Like I said, one of the most difficult lessons to learn is that people are not like him.

Sometimes heroes are self-aware enough to recognize what they are and 'come out of their shell,' so to speak. But that's immensely rare and difficult, even for heroes. So you're right. Usually it takes something else. Something to kick-start things. A mentor. An event.

But yes, without Shepard, Liara would have likely remained a quiet archeologist, 'standing in a corner' so to speak for the rest of her life. Garrus would have likely remained an unsatisfied cop. Certainly tragic, but no betrayal.

Modifié par David7204, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I wonder how I fit into David's heroism book.

My guess:

You personally: a bystander.
Your Shepard: Dead at his feet.

Me personally?

Hmm...

OEF Veteran, Combat Veteran 1st Battalion 173rd Airborne in the Korangal Valley of Afghanistan (I was there for 7 months from September 2007 to April 2008), Airborne certified with 6 combat jumps, Air Assault qualified with 42 theater insertions, 1st Lieutenant in the United States Army, Military Intelligence Officer 113th Support Battalion 76th Brigade Combat Team, Gradutate of the United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center, Expert Marksman qualified on the M-16A2 Rifle and M-4 Carbine, Graduate in Bronze with the German Military Proficiency Badge... And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:53 .

[Xilizhra]

If the hero was able to apply the principles, he would in an instant.

But he can't. There's nothing he can do or say to make people like him. Nothing he can do or say to make them recognize him. There's a line between him and the rest of the world that can't be crossed. It's something he cannot compromise. He seeks the ideal, and nothing less.

And yes. That means a tragic, tragic waste. An unbelievable loss to the world. Like I said, one of the most difficult lessons to learn is that people are not like him.

Sometimes heroes are self-aware enough to recognize what they are and 'come out of their shell,' so to speak. But that's immensely rare and difficult, even for heroes. So you're right. Usually it takes something else. Something to kick-start things. A mentor. An event.

But yes, without Shepard, Liara would have likely remained a quiet archeologist, 'standing in a corner' so to speak for the rest of her life. Garrus would have likely remained an unsatisfied cop. Certainly tragic, but no betrayal.

Which principles do you speak of, that cannot be applied?

Also, what about seeking something closer to the ideal, so that the ideal may ultimately be reached in steps?

Me personally?

Hmm...

OEF Veteran, Combat Veteran 1st Battalion 173rd Airborne in the Korangal Valley of Afghanistan, Airborne certified with 6 combat jumps, Air Assault qualified with 42 theater insertions, 1st Lieutenant in the United States Army, Military Intelligence Officer 113th Support Battalion, Gradutate of the United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center, Expert Marksman qualified on the M-16A2 Rifle and M-4 Carbine, Graduate in Bronze with the German Military Proficiency Badge... And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

Very well, I promote you to mook. Perhaps in the midlevel range.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:49 .

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

But he can't. There's nothing he can do or say to make people like him. Nothing he can do or say to make them recognize him.

There are many things any person can do to become recongized, **** even the energy you extend from yourself can get you to encourage people David.  

It's only a tragic waste if he or she chooses not to do something about it.  

[rekn2]

heroism is all based on perspective. like good and evil. there is no right or wrong. 1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Garrus would have likely remained an unsatisfied cop. 

Here's what Garrus does if you don't recruit him in ME1.

[rekn2]

Xilizhra wrote...

mook

what a joke

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I wonder how I fit into David's heroism book.

My guess:

You personally: a bystander.
Your Shepard: Dead at his feet.

Me personally?

Hmm...

OEF Veteran, Combat Veteran 1st Battalion 173rd Airborne in the Korangal Valley of Afghanistan, Airborne certified with 6 combat jumps, Air Assault qualified with 42 theater insertions, 1st Lieutenant in the United States Army, Military Intelligence Officer 113th Support Battalion, Gradutate of the United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center, Expert Marksman qualified on the M-16A2 Rifle and M-4 Carbine, Graduate in Bronze with the German Military Proficiency Badge... And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

I edged my lawn during my lunch break today.  So, there.

[eyezonlyii]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Me personally?

Hmm...

OEF Veteran, Combat Veteran 1st Battalion 173rd Airborne in the Korangal Valley of Afghanistan, Airborne certified with 6 combat jumps, Air Assault qualified with 42 theater insertions, 1st Lieutenant in the United States Army, Military Intelligence Officer 113th Support Battalion, Gradutate of the United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center, Expert Marksman qualified on the M-16A2 Rifle and M-4 Carbine, Graduate in Bronze with the German Military Proficiency Badge... And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

Were you lonely with an isolated childhood? Do you constantly feel unloved and not a part of the world at large? if not, then my good sir (or madam) you are no hero.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David, John F. Kennedy seemed to be pretty popular with the girls.

[Xilizhra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, John F. Kennedy seemed to be pretty popular with the girls.

Bay of Pigs, among much else. I don't know if he's really a hero. I think very few politicians qualify.

[Deverz]

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, John F. Kennedy seemed to be pretty popular with the girls.

Bay of Pigs, among much else. I don't know if he's really a hero. I think very few politicians qualify.

Hey, anyone who got to get it on with Marilyn Monroe is a hero of mine 

[David7204]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which principles do you speak of, that cannot be applied?

All of them. Doing things in the world requires help. Requires people. Requires assets as simple as money. On the most basic level, doing things requires training. Requires expertise, and people aren't born with it. A person in the Mass Effect universe couldn't just wake up and decide to be like Shepard. Garrus decides that being a vilgilante is better than being a cop, but it's not until after his experiences with Shepard that he has the skills necessary to do so.

It may not be completely and utterly impossible to start with nothing but yourself, but would be difficult and require luck to the degree of being unimagineable.  Even Howard Roark had a mentor.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Xilizhra wrote...
Bay of Pigs, among much else. I don't know if he's really a hero. I think very few politicians qualify.

He had a military career before being a politician you know:

"For extremely heroic conduct as Commanding Officer of Motor Torpedo Boat 109 following the collision and sinking of that vessel in the Pacific War Theater on August 1–2, 1943. Unmindful of personal danger,
Lieutenant (then Lieutenant, Junior Grade) Kennedy unhesitatingly braved the difficulties and hazards of darkness
to direct rescue operations, swimming many hours to secure aid and food after he had succeeded in getting his crew ashore. His outstanding courage, endurance and leadership contributed to the saving of several
lives and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2013 - 01:01 .

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which principles do you speak of, that cannot be applied?

All of them. Doing things in the world requires help. Requires people. Requires assets as simple as money. On the most basic level, doing things requires training. Requires expertise, and people aren't born with it. A person in the Mass Effect universe couldn't just wake up and decide to be like Shepard. Garrus decides that being a vilgilante is better than being a cop, but it's not until after his experiences with Shepard that he has the skills necessary to do so.

It may not be completely and utterly impossible to start with nothing but yourself, but would be difficult and require luck to the degree of being unimagineable.  Even Howard Roark had a mentor.

Garrus actually becomes a vigilante even after having never met Shepard, if you skip recruiting him in ME1.

But let me try to clarify something. You can apply principles once you have the resources to, which is presumably when the game starts, yes?