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[Vulpe]

 We all know that lyrium is the physical manifestation of magic in Thedas. The more common, blue type, can boost the powers of mages and it can be used by trained nonmages aka templars to disrupt the spells of a mage. It causes dependance and some nasty drowbacks.

But what about its red relative ? What do we know about it ? 

Observations :

1) We know that a mage can syphon energy  from The Fade or by the use of a processed  blue lyrium potion. Those are the conventional ways of doing it. There is also another well know and controversial way - by the use of blood. Blood is considered a source of huge power in the lore , making a mage able to cast far more than his/hers trainig permits. By that it's safe to say that blood is a source of magical power,  even a more potent sorce of energy than lyrium.

2) Red lyrium is self replicating. Beside Meredith's case, we can also see it in here and here . Notice how in the first image the Behemoth has a helmet that looks similar to the templar armor from DA2 ( it also seems to have a thorned cloth robe as the one wore by them ). In the second image, if you look close at the Behemoth chest, you will see the burning sword symbol found on the templar armor and shields. From that we can come to the conclusion that those Behemoths were templars transformed by red lyrium. ( that would also explain why the Red Templars don't need the Chantry to supply them with lyrium - they just ingest / use a shard pendant from the bodies of their former,transformed comrades)

3) While blue lyrium enhances the abily of a mage to cast or makes a templar able to disrupt magic, thereby beeing a magic of the mind and spirit, red lyrium seems to have a greater effect on the physical capabilities of an individual( Meredith ) and thus beeing more a magic of the body. It also seems to be more potent.

4) Red lyrium seems to has a maddening effect on its users, making them paranoid, violent and more likely to use even more to enhance their powers.

5) Red lyrium has a similar effect on dwarves. Blue lyrium can make a dwarf suffer from mental drawback, but only if he's exposed directly to it, while it's red conterpart can affect them only by its presents.


Conclusions:

Red lyriums taps in the body of its users and syphons the energy located in their blood to sustain and replicate itself while letting them use some of its own.The maddening effect has the purpose of making the user more prone to use more and more of the red lyrium's energy, permiting it to further tap in the blood of him/her and transform him/her into a Behemoth or lyrium statue. With each victim, the red lyrium batch becomes more potent by consuming the power that resides in the blood ( that is much more powerful than the one located in blue lyrium ), reason why it can't truly be consumed before it consumes his victim.

This creation process would explain its rarity. Without any sentient organic life form there would be no way in obtaining the energy necessary for replicating itself, so it was restricted only to The Primeval Thaig.

It can also explain why it affects the dwarves in such a way. While their connection to the Fade is severed/blocked and thus they have a resistance towards the blue type, the red one doesn't tap in the Fade. It directs its energy toward their blood and attracts them like flies.

Now all this brings forth a rather scary and unsettling question : Is this parasitic lyrium type somehow sentient ? 




[EDIT]

In the final fight, Meredith animated the statues in The Gallows to help her in battle. Now that brings up the question : Who actually controled them ? Was it she or was it the lyrium ? That also brings us back to my final question : could red lyrium be sentient ? 

[/EDIT]

Discuss

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 26 mars 2014 - 12:03 .

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

 We all know that lyrium is the physical manifestation of magic in Thedas. The more common, blue type, can boost the powers of mages and it can be used by trained nonmages aka templars to disrupt the spells of a mage. It causes dependance and some nasty drowbacks.

But what about its red relative ? What do we know about it ? 

Observations :

1) We know that a mage can syphon energy  from The Fade or by the use of processed  blue lyrium potion. Those are the conventional ways of doing it. There is also another well know and controversial way - by the use of blood. Blood is considered a source of huge power in the lore , making a mage able to cast far more than his/hers trainig permits. By that it's safe to say that blood is a source of magical power,  even a more potent sorce of energy than lyrium.

2) Red lyrium is self replicating. Beside Meredith's case, we can also see it in here and here . Notice how in the first image the Behemoth has a helmet that looks similar to the templar armor from DA2 ( it also seems to have a thorned cloth robe as the one wore by them ). In the second image, if you look close at the Behemoth chest, you will see the burning sword symbol found on the templar armor and shields. From that we can come to the conclusion that those Behemoths were templars transformed by red lyrium. ( that would also explain why the Red Templars don't need the Chantry to supply them with lyrium - they just ingest / use a shard pendant from the bodies of their former,transformed comrades)

3) While blue lyrium enhances the abily of a mage to cast or makes a templar able to disrupt magic, thereby beeing a magic of the mind and spirit, red lyrium seems to have a greater effect on the physical capabilities of an individual( Meredith ) and thus beeing more a magic of the body. It also seems to be more potent.

4) Red lyrium seems to has a maddening effect on its users, making them paranoid, violent and more likely to use even more to enhance their powers.

5) Red lyrium has a similar effect on dwarves. Blue lyrium can make a dwarf suffer from mental drawback, but only if he's exposed directly to it, while it's red conterpart can affect them only by its presents.


Conclusions:

Red lyriums taps in the body of its users and syphons the energy located in their blood to sustain and replicate itself while letting them use some of its own.The maddening effect has the purpose of making the user more prone to use more and more of the red lyrium's energy, permiting it to further tap in the blood of him/her and transform him/her into a Behemoth or lyrium statue. With each victim, the red lyrium batch becomes more potent by consuming the power that resides in the blood ( that is much more powerful than the one located in blue lyrium ), reason why it can't truly be consumed before it consumes his victim.

This creation process would explain its rarity. Without any sentient organic life form there would be no way in obtaining the energy necessary for replicating itself, so it was restricted only to The Primeval Thaig.

It can also explain why it affects the dwarves in such a way. While their connection to the Fade is severed/blocked and thus they have a resistance towards the blue type, the red one doesn't tap in the Fade. It directs its energy toward their blood and attracts them like flies.

Now all this brings forth a rather scary and unsettling question : Is this parasitic lyrium type somehow sentient ? 


Discuss

First of all, how do we know that is self replicating?

[iOnlySignIn]

Nice theory. Except

(1) I don't see a fundamental difference from other kinds of Lyrium, such as Blue Lyrium. Presumably most Templars use Blue Lyrium and yet they all suffer from withdrawal symptoms, even if those symptoms are mild in comparison.

(2) All crystals are self-replicating. It's called crystallization.

[Reznore57]

That sounds pretty good!
Would explain how suddenly , a group of templars are forging weapon with it...when the only known source was the Primeval Thaig...and last information was the Warden were looking into it.
What did the Chantry do with Meredith statue and the sword.?

I doubt it's sentient (actually it's just that the idea gives me the creeps)
Probably another case of Magic gone bad in the past , let's forget about that ...And generations later , a dumb innocent find the stuff and think "Yes ,I'm going to be rich!" ...and that's the beginning of the end..
Varric is going to have a huge guilt trip.

[iOnlySignIn]

I think the difference between Red and Blue Lyrium may be similar to that between Heroin and Morphine. Namely, their effects and methods of action are principally the same and only differing in extent, and one (Red Lyrium/Heroin) is a derivative of the other (Blue Lyrium/Morphine).

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

First of all, how do we know that is self replicating?

By transforming its users in lyrium statues ( Meredith ) or lyrium giants ( the Behemoths ). I think I explained it quite well at point 2). If you have any more unclarities feel free to ask.

[Vulpe]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Nice theory. Except

(1) I don't see a fundamental difference from other kinds of Lyrium, such as Blue Lyrium. Presumably most Templars use Blue Lyrium and yet they all suffer from withdrawal symptoms, even if those symptoms are mild in comparison.

(2) All crystals are self-replicating. It's called crystallization.

Well, lyrium is not like salt. Its kind of the materialization of magic in the physical world.And it's strange that they don't find more red lyrium (prior to the Red Templars ), like the blue one .

I do think that they are related, but they seem to have their differences. Maybe the red one is the corrupted version of the normal one.

[The Xand]

I'm going to go right ahead and accept this theory, mind body and soul, until proved otherwise. It sounds so plausible and grounded and very likely to be proven true. Love it, and well done for thinking it through so thoroughly. Nice to have some idea of what those Lyrium giants are now!

[iOnlySignIn]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Well, lyrium is not like salt. Its kind of the materialization of magic in the physical world.And it's strange that they don't find more red lyrium (prior to the Red Templars ), like the blue one .

It's clearly a crystal. And that does not contradict with anything you said. If Magic (independently from its users) has any physical but ethereal existence (i.e. a gas) it's more condensed and palpable (i.e. crystallized) form would be Lyrium.

I do think that they are related, but they seem to have their differences. Maybe the red one is the corrupted version of the normal one.

Indeed. Like how Heroin is a modified version of Morphine.

There's also this thing called "Corrupted Lyrium" though. Whether that is the same as Red Lyrium or not needs to be clarified.

[Vulpe]

 

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It's clearly a crystal. And that does not contradict with anything you said. If Magic (independently from its users) has any physical but ethereal existence (i.e. a gas) it's more condensed and palpable (i.e. crystallized) form would be Lyrium.

Now I understand what you where trying to say. I thought that you where rejecting it's magical nature and possible connection to the Fade and other magical energies. Yes, if you take it as that, lyrium is a pretty badass spinoff of meth.

[Dayze]

Here's something else to throw out there; the "Taint" makes things organic, even weapons and stone can be affected.

In the circle when the demon possessions were running rampant weird organic stuff was growing on walls etc.....

But Red Lyrium does the opposite, instead of making things organic it makes organic things.....well non-organic or crystalline.

[Vulpe]

Dayze wrote...

Here's something else to throw out there; the "Taint" makes things organic, even weapons and stone can be affected.

In the circle when the demon possessions were running rampant weird organic stuff was growing on walls etc.....

But Red Lyrium does the opposite, instead of making things organic it makes organic things.....well non-organic or crystalline.

A very good observation, I might say. 

[Xilizhra]

So... this would logically mean that all templars who had left the Chantry's lyrium pipeline turned to red lyrium to feed their addictions, due to its self-replicating properties...

Most, most intriguing.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...

So... this would logically mean that all templars who had left the Chantry's lyrium pipeline turned to red lyrium to feed their addictions, due to its self-replicating properties...

Most, most intriguing.

I find it weird to be honest.  The super-rare, newly-discovered red lyrium is more easily found than the regular kind?  This is probably just the mage equivalent to crazy blood-mages (who we're almost certainly going to have) who felt they needed more power and was a way to give us enemies similar to the faction without it going into too much detail about why we're fighting mages or templars.  I'm more curious about why it's only templars as well since I would think plenty of factions would want to try some measure of it out.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 05 novembre 2013 - 09:39 .

[Xilizhra]

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So... this would logically mean that all templars who had left the Chantry's lyrium pipeline turned to red lyrium to feed their addictions, due to its self-replicating properties...

Most, most intriguing.

I find it weird to be honest.  The super-rare, newly-discovered red lyrium is more easily found than the regular kind?  This is probably just the mage equivalent to crazy blood-mages (who we're almost certainly going to have) who felt they needed more power and was a way to give us enemies similar to the faction without it going into too much detail about why we're fighting mages or templars.

If it's self-replicating that quickly, it doesn't matter how rare it is; it'll spread in a way that lets it be easily used. Especially if it's more potent than blue lyrium. The templars definitely salvaged Meredith; they could break pieces off of her and use them sparingly for a while until some others started to transform into rock people.

[HiroVoid]

Oh right. Self-replicating. Sweet. I want to go in a red-lyrium forest in the next game then.

[Xilizhra]

HiroVoid wrote...

Oh right. Self-replicating. Sweet. I want to go in a red-lyrium forest in the next game then.

So do I; it sounds like an amazing environment.

[UC SIM]

JulianWellpit wrote...


Now all this brings forth a rather scary and unsettling question : Is this parasitic lyrium type somehow sentient 

I Believe the Red Lyrium may once have been worshiped as a god by the Dwarfs of old.
My reasonings.

Modern dwarves do not worship a god instead they honour ancestors expecially those elivated to paragon.
However they do hold a certain reverie for the 'stone'.
Is it possible that dwarfs of old once worshiped a sentient rock? - The Red Lyrium?
I believe they may have. While in the Primeval Thaig we meet a new demon, rock wraiths otherwise know as Profane.

The Primeval Thaig isn't recorded in the Shaperate, Its older than the first blight(and the earliest recorded dwarven thaig) and suspected to be older than that. The Profane who inhabit the area were once dwarfs who done something so bad that they were rejected by the stone and reborn as Rock Wraiths.

'A disturbing poem found scrawled on the walls of Revann Thaig in the Exalted Age implies that when trapped or abandoned aeons ago, the profane "feasted upon the gods." ' 

So we may have had Dwarfs worshipping a sentient rock as a god. However something happened. Some bad which resulted in these dwarfs 'feasting'/ussing the Red Lyrium. I suspect if the Red Lyrium was sentient when the dwarfs started to consume the red lyrium they were cursed and transformed into the Profane(rock wraiths) by the red lyrium.

Becouse of these actions the Red Lyrium is now twisted and seething with hatred for mortals which has sustained throughout the aeons. Its only a fragmant of what it once was and as such has lost much of its power.
It wants to destroy all living creatures it incounters. We see this happen with Bartand and Meredith.

Modifié par UC SIM, 05 novembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Dayze]

Well; Archdemons look like Dragons, cultists worship dragons....Lyrium is supposed to be the blood of the gods/dragons isn't it?

Also; is it just me but do the eggs of dragons look kind of crystalline and pale blue? kind of like lyrium?

It could be that "feasting on the gods" could simply have been using lyrium; something the dwarves from the past found to be offensive?

That and its similiar to the darkspawn/magisters; seek power of the gods and cursed to be something else corrupted and dangerous because of it.

Though we might see whatever is connected to the Red Lyrium/stone in Inquisition when the stone awakes beneath Orlais or whatever.

[UC SIM]

Dayze wrote...

Well; Archdemons look like Dragons, cultists worship dragons....Lyrium is supposed to be the blood of the gods/dragons isn't it?

Also; is it just me but do the eggs of dragons look kind of crystalline and pale blue? kind of like lyrium?

It could be that "feasting on the gods" could simply have been using lyrium; something the dwarves from the past found to be offensive?

That and its similiar to the darkspawn/magisters; seek power of the gods and cursed to be something else corrupted and dangerous because of it.

Though we might see whatever is connected to the Red Lyrium/stone in Inquisition when the stone awakes beneath Orlais or whatever.

1. I get the point your making but Lyrium isn't the blood of dragons I can't find any information to support that. 

2. Wikia is being a dick and not loading so can't get any info on dragon eggs

An addiditonal Point to support my theory "A red idol was worshipped by the dwarves of an ancient thaig thousands of years ago. Even before the rise of the darkspawncontact with the thaig was somehow lost, and it could not be resumed because of the arrival of the darkspawn."

3. Well thats why I put the word 'ussing' sadly there is not alot of information available so everything is speculation.

[Vulpe]

Dayze wrote...

Well; Archdemons look like Dragons, cultists worship dragons....Lyrium is supposed to be the blood of the gods/dragons isn't it?

The blue lyrium seems to be the "spirit" to the world do to its connection to the Fade while the red one is "the blood/flesh" of it due to its organic life form dependancy ( if my theory is correct ) .

[Xilizhra]

One thing: I don't think red lyrium is connected to darkspawn. Everything that is seems to carry the taint, whereas the darkspawn actually avoided the primeval thaig, and it's not tainted at all.

[Vulpe]

UC SIM wrote...


1. I get the point your making but Lyrium isn't the blood of dragons I can't find any information to support that. 

Think of the whole "blood of the gods" in a metaphorical way. Lyrium is magic - it might be residual magic from some magical entities. That way it makes sense.

[Estelindis]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Red lyriums taps in the body of its users and syphons the energy located in their blood to sustain and replicate itself while letting them use some of its own.The maddening effect has the purpose of making the user more prone to use more and more of the red lyrium's energy, permiting it to further tap in the blood of him/her and transform him/her into a Behemoth or lyrium statue. With each victim, the red lyrium batch becomes more potent by consuming the power that resides in the blood ( that is much more powerful than the one located in blue lyrium ), reason why it can't truly be consumed before it consumes his victim.

Very interesting and scary speculation!  I tend to think that this could have at least a grain of truth.  If this is how red lyrium works, it would turn templars using it into blood mages (of a sort), the very enemy they're trying to fight.  It would be show that hatred can turn you into what you hate.

[Vulpe]

@Estelindis : Becoming like blood mages - no. They wouldn't end up possesed ( at least not like a mage ) . Transforming them in paranoid,violent warriors and ultimately, in the final stages ( Behemonth ), in beasts - yes. While a mages action are controlled by an intelligent demon (more or less), a Red Templar would slowly become a beast.

But I understand what are you trying to say. They will become a destructive force that would destroy everything they should protect.

PS: I'm not saying that every blood mage is evil or that a templar couldn't resist the temptation.Just that most blood mages end up that way, and from what we've seen, so does the Red Templars.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 05 novembre 2013 - 10:51 .