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Who's opposed to Dragon Age Multiplayer?


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#126
Jorina Leto

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Schneidend wrote...



Baldur's Gate, Icewinde Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and their sequels all have multiplayer.


In what way? If it's a mutual campaign like Baldur's Gate, the SP/MP would not need to be any different, except in multiplayer your friends are also sharing the experience.

In this style of multiplayer they cannot potions, weapons and armor for bioware points. This style of multiplayer won't return. So please stop using this argument.

Schneidend wrote...

No, actually, that doesn't need to happen at all. The Infinity Engine games and Neverwinter Nights didn't do it.


That was before the AWESOME button target audience.

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:34 .


#127
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

You mean the resource division that industry outsiders aren't privy to, have no experience with, and are basing almost purely on speculation? 

______________

Anyone who has attempted to create two different end products in at the same time - will know about resource division and the resource allocation agonies they can engender.
It comes down to how different the SP vs MP end products will be.
I would argue that if Bioware starts hybridizing - there's gonna be ESPECIALLY ALOT of unhappy SP fans.
SP and MP must remain two separate products in terms of mechanics and gameplay focus.

#128
Fast Jimmy

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I think multiplayer can be dangerous in SP games because it might push the game design to be compatible with MP (to recycle assets, etc.). No company is going to design two games and sell them for the price of one - that's a terrible business idea. So from the design stage, there will be pressure to change the SP mechanics so that it lends itself to MP.



Wouldn't ME3's success be sufficient to allay any fears that even in such a case, the combat gameplay itself was still essentially fun and fine? * I think it's hardly possible that it was the combat design that somehow siphoned away from the story construction aspects, considering they are separate groups (cinematic designers vs combat designers).

 

I'd say ME3 wouldn't be proof, simply because ME was a completely different game philosophy than DA, even though the two look and play similar.

ME focused on player skill (you aim your gun as the prime mechanic), rather than DA, which is driven by character skill (your character's Hit% is the determiner if they attack an enemy or not). Similarly, Shephard is the only character you directly control in ME, while in DA, you take direct control of your companions and can play the game as them, from their perspective. Arguably, you could play DA:O or DA2 and never fight once as the PC.

The ME3 MP leveraged these mechanics to make the MP portion of the game similar to the SP, minus the ability to pause or to issue squad orders. So I think it is proof of nothing as far as how successful a DA MP mechanic would be, nor do I think it, in any way, mitigated the risk that introducing MP into DA would have on the SP mechanics and gameplay. It still has the very real risk of turning DA into a WoW-clone, where single character control (instead of party management) is the focus, and where action elements trump strategy.

After all, controlling a single character in DA would often be pretty boring, where you just watch auto-attack animations until your skills cooldown. 

#129
Volus Warlord

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A poll I made some time ago on the topic..

.. and I fully support a Dragon Age: Inquisition Multiplayer. A strong single player experience does not require the lack of a strong (or at least decent) multiplayer experience. I don't know where you pulled this fallacy from, but you SP isolationists cling to it as if it descended from the heavens and was given to you atop Mount Sinai.

I want an MP in DA:I, as it will maximize the amount of time and enjoyment I get out of the game. It certainly did that with ME3 and GTAV and Starcraft II and numerous others. The MP will not damage or destroy SP, or vice versa. The primary selling point of the SP is the writing, and MP doesn't soak up a whole lot of that at all. Here, write tooltips for these weapons. Sounds so labor intensive that the SP will be inherently half-baked. The secondary selling point is the gameplay, which will be 90% identical to SP if ME3 is any precedent.

MP is what sold me on getting ME3 and sold me on keeping it after the "disappointments." I loved running around Krogan charging and Volus tactics. Likewise, I do not see why I wouldn't love running around as a Dwarven Beserker with some BSNers or even the pubs of damnation. As long as it isn't half-baked, too greedy, or come across as a blatant rehash, it will be enjoyable.

More good gameplay experience= better game. Adding MP gives us more gameplay experience. We are still going to get all the writing with SP. With MP, we gain a lot and lose NOTHING. Why is that so hard to understand?

#130
Volus Warlord

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You mean the resource division that industry outsiders aren't privy to, have no experience with, and are basing almost purely on speculation? 

______________

Anyone who has attempted to create two different end products in at the same time - will know about resource division and the resource allocation agonies they can engender.
It comes down to how different the SP vs MP end products will be.
I would argue that if Bioware starts hybridizing - there's gonna be ESPECIALLY ALOT of unhappy SP fans.
SP and MP must remain two separate products in terms of mechanics and gameplay focus.


Why are you begging to be charged twice when we could be charged once for the exact same thing? :blink:

#131
zMataxa

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Schneidend wrote...

"Get bored"? As far as I'm concerned, watching my friends do dialogue during multiplayer is a FEATURE.

____________

I'm curious.
Tell me, how often did you use this "feature" in MP?  and how often did you skip forward?

#132
Seboist

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I support MP 100%, as both an addition to the core campaign with drop in/drop out co-op where one's buddies play as the companions and as separate mode ala ME3 MP.

#133
Fast Jimmy

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More good gameplay experience= better game. Adding MP gives us more gameplay experience. We are still going to get all the writing with SP. With MP, we gain a lot and lose NOTHING. Why is that so hard to understand?


Because story is not the only element of a SP campaign worth preserving. DA is a series rooted in party management and tactics. MP would either need to be about managing a party directly (nearly impossible - imagine the sever overload and UI nightmare of having each player control four party members on one screen at once) or it will be about managing one character, which means the mechanics are very much in jeopardy of being ramped up to be "AWESOME BUTTON" on steroids.

That does not, in the least, sound appealing to me.

#134
Naughty Bear

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No multiplayer thank you.

#135
zMataxa

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Volus Warlord wrote...
Why are you begging to be charged twice when we could be charged once for the exact same thing? :blink:

__________________

I can see why you might think that.
In fact - what's happening is like what happens in any large factory producing a product.
It's called economies of scale.
A car manaufacturer doesn't just make compact cars, or trucks or luxury high end vehicles.
It monetizes everything by using it's "base tools and identity" to make several product lines that APPEAL to different consumers.

I want SERIOUSLY  in depth complex SP with romances and lots of character conversations and lore exploration.
Next  fans wants  some SP and MP.
Another loves more MP.

So, Just like with autos, we are each looking for different features.
Given the huge cost to build immersive worlds like DA, it makes sense to start building different "vehicles" for gaming as well.

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:49 .


#136
Really Sad Panther

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It depends on how they work it into the game. If it has no effect on the story of the Inquisitor then why not.
I admit I was against MP in ME3, but after 528 hours of playing it I kind of changed my mind.

#137
Volus Warlord

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

More good gameplay experience= better game. Adding MP gives us more gameplay experience. We are still going to get all the writing with SP. With MP, we gain a lot and lose NOTHING. Why is that so hard to understand?


Because story is not the only element of a SP campaign worth preserving. DA is a series rooted in party management and tactics. MP would either need to be about managing a party directly (nearly impossible - imagine the sever overload and UI nightmare of having each player control four party members on one screen at once) or it will be about managing one character, which means the mechanics are very much in jeopardy of being ramped up to be "AWESOME BUTTON" on steroids.

That does not, in the least, sound appealing to me.


And I had no idea how ME would be adapted to MP prior to ME3's release and I liked it just fine. I'm not worried about it.

#138
Iakus

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Schneidend wrote...

Imanol de Tafalla wrote...

Even though I highly enjoy ME3's MP and hope it returns in the next ME title, I don't believe that a MP mode fits in DA's genre. To me, they are better off focusing on the SP.


Baldur's Gate, Icewinde Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and their sequels all have multiplayer.


They're also highly moddable.  Heck Neverwinter Nights was designed with player-made dungeons in mind.

So, sure, if DAI has as massive a story as Baldur's Gate, and is as moddable as NWN, while maintaining the depth of characters that Bioware has become famous for (with their single player games) I'll withdraw any objections to MP.

Until that is demonstrated, it's a deal-breaker for me.  

#139
hoorayforicecream

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You mean the resource division that industry outsiders aren't privy to, have no experience with, and are basing almost purely on speculation? 

______________

Anyone who has attempted to create two different end products in at the same time - will know about resource division and the resource allocation agonies they can engender.
It comes down to how different the SP vs MP end products will be.
I would argue that if Bioware starts hybridizing - there's gonna be ESPECIALLY ALOT of unhappy SP fans.
SP and MP must remain two separate products in terms of mechanics and gameplay focus.


I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

#140
MichaelStuart

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I don't support competitive multiplayer

#141
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:47 .


#142
hoorayforicecream

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

After all, controlling a single character in DA would often be pretty boring, where you just watch auto-attack animations until your skills cooldown. 


I think you are wrong. SWTOR is an example of a Bioware game where literally millions of players do even less than that - they don't even get an autoattack. You might think it is boring, but it clearly works for a good number of people.

Edit -

zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?


Why are you assuming that there would be conversations in MP at all?

Assuming they are necessary (which they are not), there is always the SWTOR method.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:49 .


#143
Fast Jimmy

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Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

More good gameplay experience= better game. Adding MP gives us more gameplay experience. We are still going to get all the writing with SP. With MP, we gain a lot and lose NOTHING. Why is that so hard to understand?


Because story is not the only element of a SP campaign worth preserving. DA is a series rooted in party management and tactics. MP would either need to be about managing a party directly (nearly impossible - imagine the sever overload and UI nightmare of having each player control four party members on one screen at once) or it will be about managing one character, which means the mechanics are very much in jeopardy of being ramped up to be "AWESOME BUTTON" on steroids. 

That does not, in the least, sound appealing to me.


And I had no idea how ME would be adapted to MP prior to ME3's release and I liked it just fine. I'm not worried about it.

Okay...? You also have no idea how DA:I's MP would be implemented. And you may hate it. 

ME was a shooter that focused on single-character control. DA is an RPG focused on party management. One is easy to put into a MP feature, the other is not. 

#144
Schneidend

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zMataxa wrote...

I'm curious.
Tell me, how often did you use this "feature" in MP?  and how often did you skip forward?


Kids these days. You can't skip dialogue in the games I mentioned, unless you hit an answer really fast.

But, as I said, I enjoy watching people play these sorts of games, so fighting alongside them makes it even better.

#145
Volus Warlord

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zMataxa wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
Why are you begging to be charged twice when we could be charged once for the exact same thing? :blink:

__________________

I can see why you might think that.
In fact - what's happening is like what happens in any large factory producing a product.
It's called economies of scale.
A car manaufacturer doesn't just make compact cars, or trucks or luxury high end vehicles.
It monetizes everything by using it's "base tools and identity" to make several product lines that APPEAL to different consumers.

I want in depth SP.
Next  fans wants  some SP and MP.
Another loves more MP.

So, Just like with autos, we are each looking for different features.
Given the huge cost to build immersive worlds like DA, it makes sense to start building different "vehicles" for gaming as well.


And /facepalm..

Well, seeing what we got before, it'd be more along the lines of chopping the car in half and then charging you for either side. 

#146
Wulfram

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SWTOR has a lot shorter cooldowns, with lots of little bits and pieces to keep the player busy.

Further MMOisation of DA gameplay is one reason for me to be concerned about multiplayer, i think.

#147
hoorayforicecream

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME was a shooter that focused on single-character control. DA is an RPG focused on party management. One is easy to put into a MP feature, the other is not. 


Secret of Mana solved this problem in 1993. I disagree with your conclusion.

#148
Volus Warlord

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

More good gameplay experience= better game. Adding MP gives us more gameplay experience. We are still going to get all the writing with SP. With MP, we gain a lot and lose NOTHING. Why is that so hard to understand?


Because story is not the only element of a SP campaign worth preserving. DA is a series rooted in party management and tactics. MP would either need to be about managing a party directly (nearly impossible - imagine the sever overload and UI nightmare of having each player control four party members on one screen at once) or it will be about managing one character, which means the mechanics are very much in jeopardy of being ramped up to be "AWESOME BUTTON" on steroids. 

That does not, in the least, sound appealing to me.


And I had no idea how ME would be adapted to MP prior to ME3's release and I liked it just fine. I'm not worried about it.

Okay...? You also have no idea how DA:I's MP would be implemented. And you may hate it. 

ME was a shooter that focused on single-character control. DA is an RPG focused on party management. One is easy to put into a MP feature, the other is not. 


I may hate its SP too.  

Is the little AI editor really going to make or break the game? 

#149
Schneidend

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hoorayforicecream wrote...


zMataxa wrote...
_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?


Why are you assuming that there would be conversations in MP at all?

Assuming they are necessary (which they are not), there is always the SWTOR method.


I'd rather the other players simply don't get to make dialogue decisions, personally.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Okay...? You also have no idea how DA:I's MP would be implemented. And you may hate it. 

ME was a shooter that focused on single-character control. DA is an RPG focused on party management. One is easy to put into a MP feature, the other is not. 


Actually, it's really easy. Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale handle it quite seamlessly.

Modifié par Schneidend, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:53 .


#150
Jaulen

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

People are a little too quick to point to games like Spec Ops: The Line as an example of the horrors that MP can inflict. To be honest most games, especially highly rated and well-received AAA games today, have multiplayer modes included. Uncharted, GTA, Diablo, Portal, Assassin's Creed, Borderlands, Tomb Raider, etc. all come with MP and are still highly rated and well-received. Spec Ops is an outlier, not the rule, and it greatly depends on when the decision to add multiplayer to the scope and schedule of the project is made that determines how it will affect the other elements, not the fact that it is added.



Disingenious to bring in Diablo. It's an action game.....could wear the rpg banner losely. So yes, MP there or drop-in/out co-op works for that kind of game. But a much more story based interactive game like DA.....nah. Don't see it working very well.

In addition, I would hate to play with my friend in their rpg game as a non-created character. Boring to me. With no ability to interact other than leveling up, exploring and buying things. Meh.