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Who's opposed to Dragon Age Multiplayer?


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#151
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?


Why are you assuming that there would be conversations in MP at all?

Assuming they are necessary (which they are not), there is always the SWTOR method.

__________________

Seriously?  No conversations?

SP fans want conversations - And Lots of them - to explore the wolrd and RPG properly.
So if MP doesn't have them - then we are INDEED making two different product sets.
Devs would then start cutting conversations, because they want to put more time into MP which don't have any conversations, and this would lead to less convos in SP.

So, that goes back to the concerns over Resource Division and "watering-down" the SP experience.
Your comments about "in-game conversations" prove that concerns over adding MP are well founded in terms of what the final SP product looks like.

#152
Jaulen

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zMataxa wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

"Get bored"? As far as I'm concerned, watching my friends do dialogue during multiplayer is a FEATURE.

____________

I'm curious.
Tell me, how often did you use this "feature" in MP?  and how often did you skip forward?



Yeah.....boring. Or frustrating.....when you're watching thinking "Pick Option B!! Option B! Nooooo.....Not A....."


The MP/SP was done decently well in SWToR....but....then having how other people influenced the conversation in a different direction than what 'I' would have done was highly annoying since it affected the SP storyline....(I play SWToR pretty much in SP mode except when necessary to have a team with)

Modifié par Jaulen, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:03 .


#153
hoorayforicecream

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Jaulen wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People are a little too quick to point to games like Spec Ops: The Line as an example of the horrors that MP can inflict. To be honest most games, especially highly rated and well-received AAA games today, have multiplayer modes included. Uncharted, GTA, Diablo, Portal, Assassin's Creed, Borderlands, Tomb Raider, etc. all come with MP and are still highly rated and well-received. Spec Ops is an outlier, not the rule, and it greatly depends on when the decision to add multiplayer to the scope and schedule of the project is made that determines how it will affect the other elements, not the fact that it is added.



Disingenious to bring in Diablo. It's an action game.....could wear the rpg banner losely. So yes, MP there or drop-in/out co-op works for that kind of game. But a much more story based interactive game like DA.....nah. Don't see it working very well.


What makes you think that multiplayer would necessarily involve co-op campaign story mode? 

In addition, I would hate to play with my friend in their rpg game as a non-created character. Boring to me. With no ability to interact other than leveling up, exploring and buying things. Meh.


What makes you think that this would be the case, and not a stand-alone scenario objective-based multiplayer experience instead, where you import your own character like with ME3's MP?

#154
Fast Jimmy

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME was a shooter that focused on single-character control. DA is an RPG focused on party management. One is easy to put into a MP feature, the other is not. 


Secret of Mana solved this problem in 1993. I disagree with your conclusion.


Co-op is the only version of MP this has been compatible with. And even then, you control less characters (instead of three in Secret of Mana, you are limited to the two your friend was playing with). So still MP, yes, but nothing ME3 did proves DA is anymore viable for MP than it was back when it was first conceived and released. 

#155
Jaulen

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People are a little too quick to point to games like Spec Ops: The Line as an example of the horrors that MP can inflict. To be honest most games, especially highly rated and well-received AAA games today, have multiplayer modes included. Uncharted, GTA, Diablo, Portal, Assassin's Creed, Borderlands, Tomb Raider, etc. all come with MP and are still highly rated and well-received. Spec Ops is an outlier, not the rule, and it greatly depends on when the decision to add multiplayer to the scope and schedule of the project is made that determines how it will affect the other elements, not the fact that it is added.



Disingenious to bring in Diablo. It's an action game.....could wear the rpg banner losely. So yes, MP there or drop-in/out co-op works for that kind of game. But a much more story based interactive game like DA.....nah. Don't see it working very well.


What makes you think that multiplayer would necessarily involve co-op campaign story mode? 

In addition, I would hate to play with my friend in their rpg game as a non-created character. Boring to me. With no ability to interact other than leveling up, exploring and buying things. Meh.


What makes you think that this would be the case, and not a stand-alone scenario objective-based multiplayer experience instead, where you import your own character like with ME3's MP?



Horde mode? 

No thanks.

#156
MerinTB

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I am opposed to MP in Dragon Age. Especially if it has ANY impact on the single player campaign.

If, somehow, BioWare was making this single player game and had a set budget for it, and then EA or whatever came along and gave them a separate, supplemental budget ONLY for multiplayer - and we ALL pretended that funds are not fungible - AND the multiplayer part had no bearing/impact on the single player game AT ALL, AND the team that worked on multiplayer was a separate team from the single player game, AND FINALLY the single player game would be released when done and not held up for release due to the multiplayer portion....

then I'd be okay with there being multiplayer added. In the fantasy world where all those conditions were met.

So, in the land of reality, no, I don't want it at all.

#157
AutumnWitch

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I am one of those people who are not "gamers" but I play DA due to some odd circumstances. If I was required to have MP or a full-time internet connection I simply wouldn't buy the game. I'm sure BW really doesn't care about losing me as I am sure my demographic is not that common but never-the-less I would spend my gaming dollars somewhere else...if I was inclined to even buy another game. Plus it kinda does against what DA is all about. I'll pass if they did it for sure.

#158
zMataxa

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Schneidend wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

I'm curious.
Tell me, how often did you use this "feature" in MP?  and how often did you skip forward?

Kids these days.
You can't skip dialogue in the games I mentioned, unless you hit an answer really fast.

______________

Did you wake up on the condescending side of the bed today?
Not cool.
You didn't get the jist of where I was going, so see below.

Schneidend wrote...

But, as I said, I enjoy watching people play these sorts of games, so fighting alongside them makes it even better.

____________

Sure I can understand that.

Let me rephrase the question away from those games then.
IF, the SP experience consists of many levels of deep conversations and romance options - are you gonna sit through that in MP mode?

#159
hoorayforicecream

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?


Why are you assuming that there would be conversations in MP at all?

Assuming they are necessary (which they are not), there is always the SWTOR method.

__________________

Seriously?  No conversations?

SP fans want conversations - And Lots of them - to explore the wolrd and RPG properly.
So if MP doesn't have them - then we are INDEED making two different product sets.
Devs would then start cutting conversations, because they want to put more time into MP which don't have any conversations, and this would lead to less convos in SP.


Here we go with the baseless speculation on resource division again. :?

You're wrong on this one, because you're making the assumption that all of the devs work on all of the things. 

The majority of any hybridization that occurs happens with the core combat systems. The goal is usually to create a robust combat design that can work and be scalable for both single player and multiplayer, and then make game mode adjustments based on numerical values for easy tunability in each case (difficulty level, number of players, character level, etc.). One that is fun to play alone, and works for groups of players as well. Bioware's already got experience in this field - just take a look at SWTOR. Maybe the Inquisitor and his or her companions get access to more spells in the single player campaign, while the multiplayer characters get a more limited selection. Maybe there's a more limited selection of items, or maybe the weapons or skills work a little differently (numerically) in MP than they do in SP. Nonetheless, it's still the same core functionality across both game types. That is the sort of hybridization that has to be done for efficiency's sake.

The other major hybridization would be the reuse of world and level geometry. Creating a new area is expensive and time-consuming. It needs texture art, level geometry creation, props created, lighting done, all sorts of things. Being able to reuse certain areas, or designing areas that can be used in both MP and SP content is the sort of hybridization that you can expect.

The conversations, story, and cinematics work is done by a separate group (cinematics and writing), with their own allocations and budgets. They have a scope, a budget, and a production schedule for all the things that need to be done for single player, and that's separate from multiplayer's schedule, budget, and scope. Your assumption is that somehow, the writers or cinematics designers or animators whatever would somehow be drawn in to work on MP-related content instead. While the possibility is there, it's usually a misallocation of resources. You typically wouldn't put a cinematics designer to work tuning multiplayer combat numbers, you'd have a multiplayer designer for that.

So, that goes back to the concerns over Resource Division and "watering-down" the SP experience.
Your comments about "in-game conversations" prove that concerns over adding MP are well founded in terms of what the final SP product looks like.


You're using baseless speculation as evidence for another baseless speculation. I've actually shipped four console titles with online MP for XB360, PS3, one about to launch on XB1 and PS4, and worked on a commercial MMOG in my career. You're wrong on this one.

#160
zMataxa

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Volus Warlord wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
Why are you begging to be charged twice when we could be charged once for the exact same thing? :blink:

__________________

I can see why you might think that.
In fact - what's happening is like what happens in any large factory producing a product.
It's called economies of scale.
A car manaufacturer doesn't just make compact cars, or trucks or luxury high end vehicles.
It monetizes everything by using it's "base tools and identity" to make several product lines that APPEAL to different consumers.

I want in depth SP.
Next  fans wants  some SP and MP.
Another loves more MP.

So, Just like with autos, we are each looking for different features.
Given the huge cost to build immersive worlds like DA, it makes sense to start building different "vehicles" for gaming as well.


And /facepalm..

Well, seeing what we got before, it'd be more along the lines of chopping the car in half and then charging you for either side. 

______________

Facepalm?  Anyone can do that.
I need a reason, or I will consider it just a "graceful" way of leaving the conversation.

Seeing what we got before and what DAI promises to be are two different things.
Fact is companies and end products are evolving all the time.
DAI could be awesome.
I think you should look ahead and see what challenges the gaming industry faces as immersion levels demand more and more inputs and how to make that economically feasible.
Separate product streams is a precdent in other industries.
Just because that isn't the perspective now - doesn't mean it won't be.

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:18 .


#161
Iakus

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zMataxa wrote...

Seriously?  No conversations?

SP fans want conversations - And Lots of them - to explore the wolrd and RPG properly.
So if MP doesn't have them - then we are INDEED making two different product sets.
Devs would then start cutting conversations, because they want to put more time into MP which don't have any conversations, and this would lead to less convos in SP.

So, that goes back to the concerns over Resource Division and "watering-down" the SP experience.
Your comments about "in-game conversations" prove that concerns over adding MP are well founded in terms of what the final SP product looks like.


this
This
This!
THIS!
THIS!!!

#162
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

You're wrong on this one, because you're making the assumption that all of the devs work on all of the things.

_______________

That assumption is NOT part of my argument. 
My assumption is quite different in a very critical way.

My  "assumption"  (I'm gonna call it a fact)  is there are only so many dollars to allocate to one project.
It may seem related to number of devs, and it is, but at the end of the day, it comes down to how many dollars to make this (these) main product line (or lines) and how many people are gonna buy it.

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:27 .


#163
EmperorSahlertz

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. I think you misunderstand what the effects of hybridizing are, or what sort of scope such changes would entail. Hybridizing the gameplay is necessary for efficiency's sake, sure. However, the scope of what that entails is most likely not what you seem to think it is, and the results of which you are vastly overestimating.

In other words, you're still doing the same thing - making a value call based on assumptions you have that aren't necessarily grounded in reality. 

_________________

Well allright.
Let's talk about "conversations" in the game.

How in depth do you think SP vs MP could be?


Why are you assuming that there would be conversations in MP at all?

Assuming they are necessary (which they are not), there is always the SWTOR method.

__________________

Seriously?  No conversations?

SP fans want conversations - And Lots of them - to explore the wolrd and RPG properly.
So if MP doesn't have them - then we are INDEED making two different product sets.
Devs would then start cutting conversations, because they want to put more time into MP which don't have any conversations, and this would lead to less convos in SP.

So, that goes back to the concerns over Resource Division and "watering-down" the SP experience.
Your comments about "in-game conversations" prove that concerns over adding MP are well founded in terms of what the final SP product looks like.

Development teams doesn't work like that. Chacnes are that if there were to be no Multiplayer at all, then the overall budget of DA:I would be smaller. So if the team were not to focus on multipalyer at all, would not free up more resources for the SP part. It would more likely just result in the development having fewer resources overall.

#164
hoorayforicecream

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You're wrong on this one, because you're making the assumption that all of the devs work on all of the things.

_______________

That assumption is NOT part of my argument. 
My assumption is quite different in a very critical way.

My  "assumption"  (I'm gonna call it a fact)  is there are only so many dollars to allocate to one project.
It may seem related to number of devs, and it is, but at the end of the day, it comes down to how many dollars to make these main product line or lines and how many people are gonna buy it.


Your assumption is that they both pull from the same pile of zots. That is incorrect.

The myth:

Publisher: Here are a hundred zots. Make a game from this.
Developer: I will make a single player game out of all one hundred zots!
Publisher: No, I want multiplayer too.
Developer: I will have to spend 20 of the zots on the multiplayer game that I would have spent on single player game instead. :(

The reality:

Publisher: How many zots would it cost to make a single player game and a multiplayer game?
Developer: We think it would cost 80 zots for single player, and 20 zots for multiplayer.
Publisher: We will give you 80 zots for single player and 20 zots for multiplayer.
Developer: Actually, we've thought about it and we don't want to do multiplayer for reason X.
Publisher: Oh, ok. Then just won't give you the 20 zots we would have, and ship the game as single player only. We'll give those zots to another developer.


The developer and the publisher make the allocation during the initial planning stage. Multiplayer's budget wouldn't just get added to single player if the multiplayer is removed. The developer would just never get that budget to begin with.

#165
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

The majority of any hybridization that occurs happens with the core combat systems.

______________

Can't you see how this affects all the focus and output down the line?

Well perhaps, I'll try this way.
Maybe, you prefer games that mix sp/mp elements well.
I don't.  I want tons more detail and depth - even more than Bioware has done in the past.
I prefer SP.
But if they go MP - then all that deatil has to be toned down - because it simply doesn't work well in the MP playthrough.
One fan lingers on a small side story detail and the next goes "are we done yet".

So is it possible that you're a sp/mp fan with some levels of detail?
And that I want lots more detail and so I'm a sp fan?

#166
Iakus

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Development teams doesn't work like that. Chacnes are that if there were to be no Multiplayer at all, then the overall budget of DA:I would be smaller. So if the team were not to focus on multipalyer at all, would not free up more resources for the SP part. It would more likely just result in the development having fewer resources overall.



Money's not the only resource. But time as well.

Bioware has three teams:

Dragon Age
Mass Effect
The mysterious "Third IP"

ME3's MP was developed by the Montreal team, who is now working on MENext. 

So...
 
If DAI has MP who is going to work on it?  All the teams are accounted for working on their own project.  Therefore DA team will have to do both the SP and MP components.  Ergo, less time to make SP the awesome experience it should be.  Fewer man hours=more cut content.  Less time to implement content.  Less time for bug fixing.  Less time for polish.

I swear if DAI got an extra year just to MP can get shoehorned in, I'm gonna me mad... 

#167
zMataxa

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Development teams doesn't work like that. Chacnes are that if there were to be no Multiplayer at all, then the overall budget of DA:I would be smaller. So if the team were not to focus on multipalyer at all, would not free up more resources for the SP part. It would more likely just result in the development having fewer resources overall.

___________________

I agree.  The MP adds more dollars available to the pool.
That was what my "whole vehicle factory production" reference was about.
But that still leaves the question - HOW many more dollars are being added.
Many fans would RIGHTfully be concerned that they'd steal from the SP experience to make the MP better, as OPPOSED To making two different quality product lines.

Do you get where I'm going with this?

#168
hoorayforicecream

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zMataxa wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The majority of any hybridization that occurs happens with the core combat systems.

______________

Can't you see how this affects all the focus and output down the line?

Well perhaps, I'll try this way.
Maybe, you prefer games that mix sp/mp elements well.
I don't.  I want tons more detail and depth - even more than Bioware has done in the past.
I prefer SP.
But if they go MP - then all that deatil has to be toned down - because it simply doesn't work well in the MP playthrough.
One fan lingers on a small side story detail and the next goes "are we done yet".

So is it possible that you're a sp/mp fan with some levels of detail?
And that I want lots more detail and so I'm a sp fan?


You're still using baseless speculation to try to justify your other baseless speculation. I don't understand what you mean by "tons more detail", or how MP would affect it.

Do you mean that having MP would mean less overall single player content? No, that's not how it works. How big MP is does not generally affect how much single player content there is. The single-player campaign budget determines how much single player content there is. They have a budget, and that's what they use to determine how much detail there is.

The publisher decides what the budget is by looking at their sales forecast data and saying "We expect this game to sell this many copies." Then, based on that data, they will calculate how much revenue they think they can generate from it, and work backwards to come up with an overall operating budget to allow for the amount of content to create and a reasonable profit to please the shareholders. So what they have to do is look at the marginal cost of additional content, compared to the estimated sales numbers. If adding more in content budget will increase the forecasted sales enough, they'll do it. If it doesn't, they won't. That is how the amount of content and features that go into a game is decided.

Edit - 

iakus wrote...
Money's not the only resource. But time as well.
Bioware has three teams: 
Dragon AgeMass EffectThe mysterious "Third IP"
ME3's MP was developed by the Montreal team, who is now working on MENext.  
So... If DAI has MP who is going to work on it?  All the teams are accounted for working on their own project.  Therefore DA team will have to do both the SP and MP components.  Ergo, less time to make SP the awesome experience it should be.  Fewer man hours=more cut content.  Less time to implement content.  Less time for bug fixing.  Less time for polish.
I swear if DAI got an extra year just to MP can get shoehorned in, I'm gonna me mad... 

You're wrong. If given a multiplayer budget allocation, the DAI team will then hire more developers to fill needed roles in the multiplayer group. Multiplayer programmers, multiplayer designers, etc. They would likely also transition a few other established team members to the group in order to provide leadership and cohesion (this is typically a great way for people to get promotions), and then look to hire to fill the roles vacated by those members on the team as well.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:48 .


#169
EmperorSahlertz

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zMataxa wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Development teams doesn't work like that. Chacnes are that if there were to be no Multiplayer at all, then the overall budget of DA:I would be smaller. So if the team were not to focus on multipalyer at all, would not free up more resources for the SP part. It would more likely just result in the development having fewer resources overall.

___________________

I agree.  The MP adds more dollars available to the pool.
That was what my "whole vehicle factory production" reference was about.
But that still leaves the question - HOW many more dollars are being added.
Many fans would RIGHTfully be concerned that they'd steal from the SP experience to make the MP better, as OPPOSED To making two different quality product lines.

Do you get where I'm going with this?

You misunderstand. Look to hoorayforicecreams explanation of it. The addition of multipalyer most likely in no way, shape, or form subtracts funding or time allocation form the SP.

#170
Afro_Explosion

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Me im not opposed,just cautious, and if they can make it as good as me3 without detracting from the story why not

#171
zMataxa

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Your assumption is that they both pull from the same pile of zots. That is incorrect.

The myth:

Publisher: Here are a hundred zots. Make a game from this.
Developer: I will make a single player game out of all one hundred zots!
Publisher: No, I want multiplayer too.
Developer: I will have to spend 20 of the zots on the multiplayer game that I would have spent on single player game instead. :(

The reality:

Publisher: How many zots would it cost to make a single player game and a multiplayer game?
Developer: We think it would cost 80 zots for single player, and 20 zots for multiplayer.
Publisher: We will give you 80 zots for single player and 20 zots for multiplayer.
Developer: Actually, we've thought about it and we don't want to do multiplayer for reason X.
Publisher: Oh, ok. Then just won't give you the 20 zots we would have, and ship the game as single player only. We'll give those zots to another developer.


The developer and the publisher make the allocation during the initial planning stage. Multiplayer's budget wouldn't just get added to single player if the multiplayer is removed. The developer would just never get that budget to begin with.

________________

I would be fine with that analogy for Skyrim and any game like it with more shiny objects.
I am not fine with that analogy for "seriously in depth" story game beginning.
The mechanics are so different.

That said, it is a good example for getting the allocation discussion going.
Up to now DA fans are used to 100 zots for SP.
Given that MP is now a reality - where do the zots for that come from.
Are they given 160 zots, or is it 100 zots now re-distributed?

Again, I refer you to my vehicle factory analogy for underlying rationale.
Bioware DA base world - 60 zots.
+SP - 50 zots
+MP 50 Zots
----- Total 160 zots for a bigger game.
Anyway, that's how i see the Future of gaming for stories that are epic and in depth, and ambitious on a skyrim level.
If it comes to be - well that is another guess.

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 novembre 2013 - 11:00 .


#172
Darji

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First of all they need to show that they can make a great SP game again before I ever want to hear about MP in Dragon Age. After that we surely can talk about it^^

#173
zMataxa

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@ hoorayforicecream

I'll have to resume later. Duty calls elsewhere.
I suspect we are having a "preference leading to perspective" impasse here.
Be back later.

#174
Schneidend

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zMataxa wrote...
____________

Sure I can understand that.

Let me rephrase the question away from those games then.
IF, the SP experience consists of many levels of deep conversations and romance options - are you gonna sit through that in MP mode?


Yes. Emphatically, yes. That's what I've been saying this whole time. That's what I've said in every thread about Mass Effect and Dragon Age multiplayer, before ME2 and DA2 even came out. 

I like to watch people play these games, dialogue and all. So, why would I not want to watch it AND play as Grunt or Cassandra and also assist in combat and exploration? That would be the ultimate for me.

#175
Afro_Explosion

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Darji wrote...

First of all they need to show that they can make a great SP game again before I ever want to hear about MP in Dragon Age. After that we surely can talk about it^^

They have always made great games, great but also flawed