21 réponses à ce sujet

[metalcraze33]

Why do people feel sorry for Jowan?
He lied to your character about being a blood mage, risked your life and got his nasty chantry lover sent to Aeonar.
You could have been murdered by templars for him and he lied to you.
Then he tries to murder an arl instead of facing up to his actions.
And people still feel bad for him why?

[Icy Magebane]

I never liked him and I've never heard a good case in his favor.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Why do people feel sorry for Jowan?
He lied to your character about being a blood mage, risked your life and got his nasty chantry lover sent to Aeonar.
You could have been murdered by templars for him and he lied to you.
Then he tries to murder an arl instead of facing up to his actions.
And people still feel bad for him why?

Essentially, I think its because he has normal, human weaknesses, which are pretty much the worst thing a mage can have given their environment and the costs of their powers. His failings aren't bad enough to make him a bad person, or at least they wouldn't be if he wasn't in an environment where he can't afford them.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I didn't think anyone liked him.  That said, I don't hate him.  I screw up as much as he does, but he at the same time, he does seem like quite the fool.

[Ferretinabun]

Jowan has always seemed to me a not-very-bright guy who just makes terrible choices rather than being a bad person.

First off he gets wind that he will be made tranquil rather than be initiated as a circle mage. So he turns to blood magic and tries to run away with his lover. Yes it's a bad choice, yes it's selfish, but it's kinda understandable.

Then, caught by the templars, he is offered his freedom by Loghain if only he co-operates with his underhand scheme. Again, it's arguably not a clever move, but understandable.

He certainly causes bad things to happen. But he doesn't mean for them to happen. They're just the result of his rather unwise actions. He is foolish rather than vindictive. I think that's why he invokes pity rather than scorn - in me at least.

[dainbramage]

Not a fan of him, he tends to die during my playthroughs.

EDIT: @ferret, he's a blood mage before he learns he's going to be made tranquil.

Modifié par dainbramage, 09 novembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[Ferretinabun]

Hmm, you might be right there. But even so, blood magic isn't automatically evil (despite DA2). I think even then we can still chalk it up to another foolish decision rather than any real desire to harm others.

[sylvanaerie]

If you (as a mage) tell Teagan you'd like to execute Jowan yourself (in the cutscene after Connor's issue is resolved) you can go speak to Jowan where he will tell you the reason he chose blood magic was because he was jealous of you, not because of the whole tranquility thing.  He was already a blood mage (just as they had accused him of). He thought Blood magic would make him a great mage.

Jowan is a bad case of handing a 2 year old a loaded pistol. A gun isn't inherently evil either, it's just an object. Nor for that matter neither is a 2 year old evil, but they lack the maturity to handle a gun responsibly. Jowan is kind of like that to me.

That he accepts what he's done and wants to face his actions is admirable, and that at least makes me hate him a little less.

But yea, selfish and childish is where I'd categorize him, not evil.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 novembre 2013 - 11:54 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I wish they gave you the option to send him to prison.  He wanted to redeem himself, so I didn't feel right executing him.  Being made tranquil would have been a fate worse than death (in my opinion).  And I can't just let him go, because this is attempted murder we're talking about, with treason as well.  So yeah, prison would have been the best middle ground for me.

[Icy Magebane]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Hmm, you might be right there. But even so, blood magic isn't automatically evil (despite DA2). I think even then we can still chalk it up to another foolish decision rather than any real desire to harm others.

The problem is that even though blood magic isn't evil in and of itself, it is illegal.  Attempting to learn and utilize it within the confines of what is pretty much a prison is just foolish.  Trying to drag the PC into his escape attempt, while repeatedly lying about being a blood mage is why I don't like him.  And at one point, doesn't he say that he did it because he felt inferior to the Warden?  Give me a break!  That's a terrible reason to learn blood magic.

Knowing Jowan, he would have failed the Harrowing anyway.  He seemed gullible enough to believe that a demon might be able to help him stay with Lily...   Oh well.

[Ferretinabun]

Maybe I'm hazy on this, but we don't actually know Jowan's fate if we send him back to the Circle, do we? I mean Tranquility may be implied (it's what he was facing before he ran away) but maybe there were other options? Maybe he earned himself a different fate by 1) running away and/or 2) working to undo the damage he caused?

Icy - Don't get me wrong, I'm not Jowan's biggest fan or anything. He definitely made some stupid decisions. But I do think he's more to be pitied that hated. Especially as he seems willing to redeem himself given the chance, late as it may be.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:29 .

[Icy Magebane]

@Ferretinabun - I was going to suggest that as an alternative for Neverwinter_Knight77, but as I was writing it, it dawned on me that they probably would make him Tranquil. I don't see them allowing a known blood mage to just hang out there... They might just kill him once he's in their custody.

And yeah, I agree about pitying Jowan.  I was really just pointing out how flawed his reasoning was... and my own resentment for being dragged into it.  Like the OP said, this could have easily gotten all 3 of us killed.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[Ferretinabun]

In fairness I do have one MAJOR problem with Jowan - his timeline is screwed up the wazoo. :-p

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I wish they gave you the option to send him to prison.  He wanted to redeem himself, so I didn't feel right executing him.  Being made tranquil would have been a fate worse than death (in my opinion).  And I can't just let him go, because this is attempted murder we're talking about, with treason as well.  So yeah, prison would have been the best middle ground for me.

We have from Gaider that the poison wasn't supposed to be lethal, and I think Jowan outright states that's what he was told. As for treason, don't forget that in following the regent, Jowan is legally on the right side.

[Ferretinabun]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As for treason, don't forget that in following the regent, Jowan is legally on the right side.

That is an interesting point for many of Loghain's minions.

But in this particular case it is doubtful that Loghain was regent when he ordered Eamon poisoned. You meet a knight on the quest for the Ashes in Lothering, so Loghain must have sent out Jowan before leaving for Ostagar. However, as I said, the timeline here is screwy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As for treason, don't forget that in following the regent, Jowan is legally on the right side.

That is an interesting point for many of Loghain's minions.

But in this particular case it is doubtful that Loghain was regent when he ordered Eamon poisoned. You meet a knight on the quest for the Ashes in Lothering, so Loghain must have sent out Jowan before leaving for Ostagar. However, as I said, the timeline here is screwy.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

As for the timeline being screwy, Gaider's explanation was that Loghain wasn't at Ostagar during the entire Origin, and managed to get Jowan, send him to Eamon, and get back before Duncan got there. Which kind of lowers my respect for Duncan. Slow bastard...

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 novembre 2013 - 10:35 .

[Bardox9]

I never felt sorry for Jowan. My first play through I went to Irving. Not because I didn't like Jowan, because I did. I told Irving because the plan completely screws over my Warden. Jowan destroys his phylactery and runs off with his girl friend and I (the Warden) am felt holding the bag and running for the rest of my life? That's the plan?? Really??? You gotta be f^^king kidding me. Oh hell no!

I don't care that he was a blood mage, almost all of my mages in DA:O ended up as blood mages. It's the fact he and his girl friend didn't seem to care what would happen to me. Why exactly should I care what happens to them? I did help him on my second play through just to see what the differences would be, but I felt like an a^s knowing he was lying to my face.

He does not deserve pity, he deserves a lightening bolt to his face!

Modifié par Bardox9, 10 novembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[metalcraze33]

Well,I played a male human mage and he thought Jowan was an idiot for hooking up with someone from the chantry [he hated the chantry.] and was sick of Jowan whining at him all the time,because he hates weaklings.
But he was very into mage rights and was disgusted by anyone being made tranquil.
So he helps Jowan and straight up asks if he's a blood mage and he lies.
He basically betrays his friend who risks everything for him and runs off without even a second thought the moment he is caught.
Leaving his friend to be killed.
He is a coward and to me there is no redeeming quality to him at all.
I am not against blood magic at all but I am against using it in a place where you being discovered is going to be a huge mess for everyone.
The templars wouldn't just blame him they would think others were involved and circle life would be even worse.
He could have gotten so many innocent mages killed or hurt he is a selfish piece of waste.
So In my mind after my mage used him to save Connor he said he should be executed.
Because he didn't want to be a tranquil and his actions hurt so many people.
After all if he hadn't poisoned the arl, Connor would have had no reason to deal with the demon and those villagers would still be alive the deaths are his fault.

Modifié par metalcraze33, 10 novembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Sure, I'd go apostate to avoid becoming tranquil.  Don't know if I'd choose blood magic, considering its association with demons and abominations, but he did make it out of the tower.

[lonelyloner]

Bah I hated the Mage Origins story. I was in with Jowan totally, and I was determined to escape the tower too. (my PC hates the Circle with extreme passion, this place's a fxxxin prison! )
So Jowan created an opening by blasting Irving and the templars with his Blood Magic, and yet my PC... doesn't escape? She just stuck around helping Irving up?
--

With that out of way, I shared similar opinions with ones above: I don't hate Jowan, I actually can relate to him. He's such a failure it's funny to see. He's like a weak man who struggles anyway, trying to defy his destiny (as in escaping being made Tranquil). But he blunders here and there.
To me that's a mighty brave thing to do. Even if he's a fail, at least he tried, he gambled and lost. Stupid, but I approve.

[MJones]

Jowan's a toad. My Warden started out agreeing to the whole thing, even going so far as to clear out a cave full of spiders in order to get the approval for the fire rod, but as was doing so, she had time to think about it. She had a bright, promising future as a circle mage, and Jowan's plan is suicidal. She's not surprised when he performs blood magic to escape (only, perhaps, that he managed to pull it off instead of shank himself). She allows him to leave because she thinks being made tranquil really does suck, and because Irving never asked her to go to the wall to stop him -- only to trick him so they could implicate Lily.