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[ChowMan]

Hey Everyone,

I was thinking about the characters of Mass Effect and I thought about Ashley randomly. Does she really have a bad personality?

For Mass Effect 1, people say she is really racist towards other aliens. I am trying to keep an open mind about it, and I realize that she can't help but be a little cautious towards other species. Her whole family line was affected by the First contact war and she recieved nothing but "bad views" from the higher up. To me, that sort of explains her being cautious towards Garrus and Wrex. 

For Mass Effect 2, I dont' really blame her for her beliefs in Cerberus. What they have done, especially what you saw in ME1, it's pretty obvious that they are a bad group, more so in ME3. So for your lover/friend to suddenly side with them, it's pretty hard to swallow. So although it really sucked that she ditched you on Horizon.... She had her reasons... and people lose their tempers. To me, perhaps she just really lost her temper because she is a really hot headed woman. Afterall, if she was your lover, she DID end up sending you that e-mail to apologize and still showed that she was "interested"

For Mass Effect 3, she was still a little "iffy" about Shepard so  she kept questioning Shepard. Plus, Cerberus was attacking you near the beginning of the game. Yes, she should have taken your word for it.. but perhaps she's just a very cautious girl whos thinks that she needs to be. Trust is a hard thing for her to give, except for her family. 

That's my take on it. Keep an open mind, and let me know what you all think  .

Cheers.

[MrMrPendragon]

I wouldn't say the B-word is the right word to describe Ashley. She's not a bad person really.

I just believe that she's a product of her upbringing. And even then she manages to compromise everything she was brought up to believe and cooperate with her alien team members.

All the characters sort of have changed for the better. Jack, Miranda, and Garrus have shown obvious development.

It's all about character development and writing. You can't grow your character's personality if he/she was perfect from the start.

[ChowMan]

Yeah, I would like to think that she definitely changed her views for the better. And a small part in the series, but like Navigator Pressly, she probably changed her views on Aliens. Maybe not entirely due to what she said in Horizon, but probably better than before?

[KaiserShep]

I don't think that she is. She seems hard set on her beliefs in ME1, but she does progress beyond that. It's just too bad that she doesn't get much to say in ME3, and has some moments that are not exactly graceful.

[Made Nightwing]

Let me just give you some quotes really quick.

'I hope this mission helps change people's minds about the quarians, Tali.'
'Tali's like a sister to me.' 'How could you kill the quarians, Shepard?'

'Ashley, would you have really shot me on Virmire?'
'If you hadn't stood down, sure.'
'I respect you for that.'

The dog and bear quote seems to get people riled up, but that's because people are thick as wood, and don't get that Ashley's actually talking about the Council abandoning humanity if the threat is big enough ( ME2 and start of ME3 is a perfect example, asari don't even join in till the end), and so humanity needs to be strong enough to fight for its own survival.

The Garrus and Wrex thing? Keep in mind that she's advocating classified areas of the ship be kept out of access to the two members of the ship who have absolutely no reason to be in there other than to look at things they shouldn't. Note, she doesn't advocating restricting Tali's or Liara's access, because they have to work in those areas. Ship security is an NCO's responsibility in the Navy, believe it or not.

She's not personally racist, as seen by her rather relaxed treatment of Tali. She's professionally cautious around new arrivals on the ship, much the same as I would be if a member of the Chinese Army was invited onto my base to have a look around. Sure, we're friends and all that, but he doesn't need to see everything we've got.

Someone once left me a charming message, telling me, and I quote: 'The reason I dislike Ashley is because she seems like the type of 'good ol' girl' that likes to sit around, sipping corn liquor and talking about how great humanity is.' An opinion that I have to say leaves me entirely confused. Is drinking alcohol a reason to dislike someone? Is loving the place that you live a bad thing? I have American friends who love where they live, and love being Americans. I love where I live, and I love being an Aussie. In fact, I think my spot in the Blue Mountains is just about the best place on Earth. Does that make me a racist?

At the end of the day, the ones making the claim are the ones who have to provide the proof, and there is absolutely no proof that Ashley considers aliens to be inherently evil, immoral, prone to crime, or somehow inherently inferior to humanity by dint of being aliens. And as I keep having to explain to people, patriotism isn't racism.

As for 2&3? I absolutely agree that she had a right to be dismissive of terrorists like Cerberus, and mistrustful of Shepard for working for them, under their banner. Writing wasn't very good though. Damn you Jay, again.

[Iakus]

Made Nightwing wrote...


The dog and bear quote seems to get people riled up, but that's because people are thick as wood, and don't get that Ashley's actually talking about the Council abandoning humanity if the threat is big enough ( ME2 and start of ME3 is a perfect example, asari don't even join in till the end), and so humanity needs to be strong enough to fight for its own survival.

Not to mention the lolworthy "She's calling aliens dogs!" When in that analogy, humanity is the dog  

And whoever gave that "good 'ol girl desciption" clearly never took her to the Terra Firma rally in ME1

[Obadiah]

Ashley doesn't really just fall in line attitude-wise, even if she follows the player's direction. I didn't think that made her a bad character or anything.

[Edit] Gonna class up the front page a bit with a pic.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 novembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[RZIBARA]

No shes not.

Also, what Nightwing said

[Steelcan]

I sensed a disturbance in the force

[Mcfly616]

Obviously, it's subjective. But if you're asking me if she's a ****....I'd say No. She's a nag.


Miranda fills the "****" role of the series.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Everyone seems to accept the "handwavium" of "I got better" from being dead almost two years of which was in a Cerberus lab without hardly a question.

How did she recover from being dead? How does Ashley know that isn't some sophisticated VI that looks like Shepard. How does Shepard know that she isn't just some sophisticated VI or AI who thinks she's Shepard?

I'll have to take Ashley to a Terra Firma rally.

[Cobalt2113]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How did she recover from being dead? How does Ashley know that isn't some sophisticated VI that looks like Shepard. How does Shepard know that she isn't just some sophisticated VI or AI who thinks she's Shepard?

I'll have to take Ashley to a Terra Firma rally.

Gee those are actually some rational questions. Pity she made absolutely no effort to find out the answers and instead just stormed off in a huff.

[Mcfly616]

What does a human supremacy group have to do with a character asking a logical question about another characters resurrection by a completely separate human supremacy group?



Other than the fact that she's obviously against said groups....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Made Nightwing]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How did she recover from being dead? How does Ashley know that isn't some sophisticated VI that looks like Shepard. How does Shepard know that she isn't just some sophisticated VI or AI who thinks she's Shepard?

I'll have to take Ashley to a Terra Firma rally.

Gee those are actually some rational questions. Pity she made absolutely no effort to find out the answers and instead just stormed off in a huff.

I think 'wasted opportunities' and 'bad writing' should be the tagline for Horizon. And for ME3? Once more, with feeling, damn you Jay.

[Made Nightwing]

Steelcan wrote...

I sensed a disturbance in the force

Calm yourself, Steelcan. We have a common enemy.

[P. Domi]

Actually, Ashley Williams is very dismissive of the Terra Firma guy you meet on the Citadel. The quest name is "UNC: Our Own Worst Enemy". She doesn't share their opinions with them at all. It's game content available on youtube or on the Mass Effect Wiki, should someone want to check it out.

Although some good points have already been made, I'd like to add my two cents to counter some of the criticism this character receives.

-Chris L'Étoile himself said the dog and bear analogy is a reference to a novel (I'll try to find the quote and edit this post), he didn't intend it to be taken as calling anyone a dog. The misundertsanding of this quote is quite surprising, I got it the first time I heard it in the game.
She's a realist, not a racist: the other Council races will worry about their own, and put their necessities above anyone else's... Williams adds "it's a very human thing to do", that is, she's saying we'd do the same when left with no choice.

-As for her mistrust of the turians, it'd be interesting to poll the opinions of people who lived the Cold War tensions between the USA and the Soviet Union first-hand. Chances are, people older than 60 probably hold some kind of grudge or negative opinion towards the other block. I've personally met plenty of well educated people in the USA who hold grudges against the Russians, even if there never was a direct conflict between the USA and the URSS (only 'proxy wars') and the world has changed considerably ever since..

The war between turians and humans is fresh in the minds of many characters in the trilogy: Ashley, Anderson, Pressly Primarch Victus, Nihlus... they all comment on it at one point for different reasons. This also emphasises the notion that these civilisations have not always lived in peace, the Rachni wars and the Krogan rebellions are more examples of this. First diplomatic contact with alien species is not supposed to be an easy thing to accomplish. Look at the yahg... 

- Gunnery Chief Williams is right to remind Shepard of regulations as to the wisdom of letting non-Alliance personnel free roaming aboard the vessel (they all happen to be alien, but it'd apply to human civilians too). It doesn't mean she wants them in the brig.

Rear Admiral Mikhailovich complains about it too. It's early in the game and you've just recruited a character like Wrex (who seems to be a violent mercenary with no clearly defined loyalties), a turian you know very little about and a mysterious quarian engineer who spends all her time checking the Normandy's systems with her omnitool. I love all these characters and I didn't think they were out to betray Shepard, don't misundertand me, but it's logical that someone onboard would ask Shepard about it. The Normandy is a military ship, it's not the Ebon Hawk or the Millenium Falcon.

Edit: the dog and the bear is an indirect quote of "The Killing Star", by Pellegrino and Zebrowski (Source: the writer posting as Stormwaltz in a f13.net)

Modifié par pablodomi, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[NeonFlux117]

Yeah, she's a super B!tch in ME3. She's so jealous of Shepard it's pathetic. And if you romance her from ME1.... Wow, could she be anymore of a debie downer. Also, she doesn't trust you.


Cause you know-

Saving her on virmire. Liberating the citadel from Saren and the Geth. And defeated the collectors and saving galaxy-Again. Isn't enough for her to trust you.

B!tch.

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Everyone seems to accept the "handwavium" of "I got better" from being dead almost two years of which was in a Cerberus lab without hardly a question.

How did she recover from being dead? How does Ashley know that isn't some sophisticated VI that looks like Shepard. How does Shepard know that she isn't just some sophisticated VI or AI who thinks she's Shepard?

I'll have to take Ashley to a Terra Firma rally.

[Xilizhra]

The dog and bear quote seems to get people riled up, but that's because people are thick as wood, and don't get that Ashley's actually talking about the Council abandoning humanity if the threat is big enough ( ME2 and start of ME3 is a perfect example, asari don't even join in till the end), and so humanity needs to be strong enough to fight for its own survival.

Why does this keep getting repeated? The asari join right after the coup, which is by no means the end. They also contribute among the most of any single race.

There's also, of course, the fact that of the various races, only the leader of humanity tried to actually shoot the dog. Just throwing it out there.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 novembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

The dog and bear quote seems to get people riled up, but that's because people are thick as wood, and don't get that Ashley's actually talking about the Council abandoning humanity if the threat is big enough ( ME2 and start of ME3 is a perfect example, asari don't even join in till the end), and so humanity needs to be strong enough to fight for its own survival.

Why does this keep getting repeated? The asari join right after the coup, which is by no means the end. They also contribute among the most of any single race.

There's also, of course, the fact that of the various races, only the leader of humanity tried to actually shoot the dog. Just throwing it out there.

I have to say that you and I agree for once -- I mean, Shepard's track record (nuking Virmire, talking with the rachni, messing with the genophage, blwoing a mass relay, allying with a geth, working with Cerberus) isn't really going to make many leaders jump to join with him without some reassurance that they aren't going to get screwed over.

And the thing that some people don't get is that Ashley's monolouge about the bear and the dog applies to everyone in the galaxy -- every single race believes the same thing about each-other. They all believe that, given teh oppertunity, they'd be stabbed in the back when they ask for help.  They all share that exact same mindset -- we have to put ourselves first. If Thessia was the one attacked first, would our first instinct be to divert defensive forces away from Earth?
Ideas like Ashley's are basically why this "bear and the dog" situation exists in the first place -- people are so paranoid about getting screwed over that they screw others over first to keep that from happening to themselves. They put themselves first because they don't trust anyone else to do so.

Although, I'm willing to admit some of this may be biased since I always preferred Kaiden Alenko over Ashley Williams.
To me, Kaiden represented what the Alliance strvies to be - he seemed more down-to-earth and passive, and more willing to take things in moderation. He was open to new ideas, and if he was ever wrong, or ever screwed up or overreacted, he'd admit it and own up to his mistakes. Ashley on the other hand, seemed to represent what the Alliance currently is, and I found her overbearing and brash, and a bit inflexible with her ideals -- she seemed rather closed to new perspectives, and was very stubborn and prideful, rarely - if ever - admitting to having been wrong in her judgements.
Given this, my judgement may not be the most balanced, since I may be speaking out of the fact that I generally preferred Kaiden's more malible persona over Ashley's more steadfast one.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 novembre 2013 - 08:58 .

[RatThing]

The first ME game was about humanity's place in the galactic community. In this context the two Alliance squadmates serve an important role. They provide you with two different perspectives. Kaidan stands for a rather relaxed relationship with Aliens ("they are like us"). Ash stands for a rather cautious approach. Both points of view are somehow reasonable and schould be taken into consideration.
Also I think that a lot of people disliked her because she's the one who shoots Wrex, but they forget that Wrex had Shepard at gunpoint.  (May I add however, that it is an odd decision to put this scene right before you decide about her own life?)


 

[Omega Torsk]

No, she really isn't. She's a headstrong woman with opinions and is one of the more realistic characters in the game.

People just hate cause haters be hatin'.

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 09 novembre 2013 - 09:05 .

[silverexile17s]

Omega Torsk wrote...

No, she really isn't. She's a headstrong woman with opinions and is one of the more realistic characters in the game.

People just hate cause haters be hatin'.

No, that really isn't true. They hate her because she's generally stubborn and inflexible. She distrusts people and has a rather "black and white" view of life.

Perhaps try to look at it from the other person's view -- something Ashley didn't usually try. I won't hide the fact that I wasn't found of her, but I believe there are validifiable reasons for it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 novembre 2013 - 09:10 .

[Omega Torsk]

silverexile17s wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

No, she really isn't. She's a headstrong woman with opinions and is one of the more realistic characters in the game.

People just hate cause haters be hatin'.

No, that really isn't true. They hate her because she's generally stubborn and inflexible. She distrusts people and has a rather "black and white" view of life.

Perhaps try to look at it from the other person's view -- something Ashley didn't usually try. I won't hide the fact that I wasn't found of her, but I believe there are validifiable reasons for it.

Round and round we go. Ash changes (she can even change her views as early as the middle of ME1!). I'm sorry, but the constant "because she's a racist, holier-than-thou xenophobe" comments tend to wear on my ability to see things from a different point of view.

[Sir DeLoria]

Well, she loves Tali like a sister and hats the Geth, so I do agree with her on certain things.

But at the end of the day I still like Kaidan more, so bye, bye butterfly!