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[Br3admax]

I would just like to point out that underlining and italicizing your words does not make them right.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You mean by serving to slap us in the face with the self-rightious religious stuff? Hell, I don't normally agree with either @Ryzaki, @Xilizhara, or @Barquil on things (like the geth vs quarian debates), but I do agree with them that Ashley wasn't all that easy to get on with with the self-rightious "black and white" view of everything.

I don't know how you get "self-rightious religious stuff" from Ash. She directly asks Shepard whether her religious beliefs are problematic for him/her, and the most logical answer is "I'm your commanding officer, not a moral compass". I don't get why a totally innocent stuff is lambasted by some. 

"Hello? How can you look out there and not believe in something?"
".....because I believe not to believe in any deities?"
You listen to her say that, acting like there's no way you can be out here without having to believe in something? And how she blamed turians for a personal disgrace, and not out of mistrust for the safety of Alliance secrets?

[RatThing]

silverexile17s wrote...

RatThing wrote...

iakus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

so much this!

So much not this, because those things have absolutly nothing to do with why they dislike Ash. It has to do with the fact that after everything that happened, she's too inflexible a person to admit that she was wrong about Shepard. Kaidan will acknowledge that he was wrong about Shepard. She won't. Her views are inflexible in general -- that;s regardless of her racial views,  or her views on squadmates.

I don't know why you quote me here because I don't give a rats ass about whether you like Ash or not. For all I care you can write a whole book about how you dislike her since you already wrote walls of text about that here.
I liked her in ME1 and I wanted the old Ash back no matter whether she'd be popular or not. That's why I agreed with Iakus.

[silverexile17s]

Br3ad wrote...

I would just like to point out that underlining and italicizing your words does not make them right.

I'm highlighting a point. And the fact that I provide sources from the games tends to make that assumption of yours fall through.
Seriously, if you aren't going to add anything, leave.

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

RatThing wrote...

iakus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

so much this!

So much not this, because those things have absolutly nothing to do with why they dislike Ash. It has to do with the fact that after everything that happened, she's too inflexible a person to admit that she was wrong about Shepard. Kaidan will acknowledge that he was wrong about Shepard. She won't. Her views are inflexible in general -- that;s regardless of her racial views,  or her views on squadmates.

I don't know why you quote me here because I don't give a rats ass about whether you like Ash or not. For all I care you can write a whole book about how you dislike her since you already wrote walls of text about that here.
I liked her in ME1 and I wanted the old Ash back no matter whether she'd be popular or not. That's why I agreed with Iakus.

The old Ash is the same one in ME3. And I disagreed because it doesn't have anything to do with why Ashley's character was being debated on.

[Br3admax]

J. Reezy wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I would just like to point out that underlining and italicizing your words does not make them right.

You sure about that?

Only hoes like Reese's. 

[RatThing]

silverexile17s wrote...


The old Ash is the same one in ME3.

Not even remotely.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

pablodomi wrote...

Ash didn't oppose fighting the Collectors, Ash disapproved the business partners Shepard had associated with in ME 2. If Ashley had joined Shepard in ME 2 she would have had to defect and break her oath to the Alliance to join an extremist group, just because Shepard asked her to? I, for one, like the fact that some characters are in the military and sometimes, they act like it. It makes the story believable (which is different from realistic). There's a variety of characters, they have their own agendas, that's why some of them join you in ME2 and some can't or prefer not to.

Exactly. I like the logic of some posters in this thread - Ashley Williams is a racist, xenophobe who hates their precious asari or quarians or whatever. But they also blame her for not joining a racist, xenophobic organization who wants human supremacy in the Galaxy. Charming.

Ashley joining Cerberus would be too much out of character, she's loyal to Alliance and she's also would be extremely negative towards joining terrorists with her family history. "A [Williams has to be better than the best" and all that.
 

But there is a piece of logic that you tend to forget, like the fact that no one was asking Ashley to join Cerberus to begin with. Dr. Chakwas and Joker explain this -- " I wasn't working for Cerberus, I was working for you."  The same can be said for Jack - who hates Cerberus with a burning passion that rivals a star going supernova - yet still works with Shepard. Because working for Shepard isn't working for Cerberus. They're funding him/her, but as Shepard says on Horizon "that doesn't mean I answer to them." What applies to Jack applies as to Kasumi and Zaeed, as well as every other non-human on the Normandy SR-2. Shepard was asking Ashley to join him/her on the Normandy, and just like Garrus, Tali, Legion, Mordin, Zaeed, Kasumi, Samara, Grunt, Thane, and Jack, she could have done so without joining Cerberus. No one was asking her to quit the Alliance and start wearing Miranda-style Cerberus jumpsuits -- hell, Admiral Hackett can come aboard the Normandy and didn't have to quit the Alliance to do so.

No one was ever asking Ashley to quit the Alliance and join Cerberus. They were asking her to join Shepard. Hell, 10 out of 12 members of your squad joined you without becoming members of Cerberus. Why couldn't Ashley? Hell, Kaidan at least admits that he was wrong about you and should have realized that you must have had good reasons for working with them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


The old Ash is the same one in ME3.

Not even remotely.

How so? She's still stubborn, she's still devotely religious, she's still hard-lined "the world is black and white" opinionated. The only thing different is her casual dress and her hairstyle - and she still tends to wear armor on missions.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[silverexile17s]

Br3ad wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I would just like to point out that underlining and italicizing your words does not make them right.

You sure about that?

Only hoes like Reese's. 

Once again, if all you're going to do is try to derail the topic just to prove a point, you can kindly leave.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Br3admax]

What topic? This is just a bash thread. Once the word b*tch was put into the OP, all bets were off. Two, all you are doing is trying to force your assessments onto others and trying to say that "one thinks this way so everyone should." And finally, aren't you the one that mopes around the MP forum complaining about just about everything. Hardly someone who should command respect or authority.

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
True but my Shep doesn't have time to be worried about someone's doubts and if he proves them right or wrong he's having little boy nightmares, trying to avoid being Reaper chow and so on. Don't have no time for that.

Your Shepard doesn't have time to do her job? Because it's not your subordinates job to make you feel special, empowered and respected. It's your job to inspire confidence in your decisions and actions that will lead to you having their respect.

But Shepard has time to run errants for random people and fix her crew's daddy issues just fine. Recruiting an unstable murderer for her lore-breaking, special biotics and fixing her with the glorious powers of friendship, recruiting a dying assassin with family issues for no apparent reason, babysitting an AI exploring her humanity (so Joker can get laid) and so on ... oh, and of course there's always lots of time for fraternization while the galaxy is burning.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I'm dissappointed that you think Ash's views on alians had anything to do with this when it doesn't. It's about her being too inflexible with her personal views to admit when she's wrong. That's regardless of how she feels about aliens. And BTW, the fact that she distrusts turians because of how the Alliance scapegoated her grandfather doesn't entail "biased" to you?

If you think that, you didn't play ME1. She's stubborn, brash, and more then a bit reckless. She has a very "black and white" view of life. And her "bear and the dog" analogy, she fails to realize applies to everyone -- ideals like hers are why no one trusts each-other in the galaxy. They're all afraid of being backstabbed, so they do it first. And again, as pointed out by the guards in the CIC, that's a hypocricy to blame the Council for not helping Earth, because if they were attacked and Earth wasn't, the Alliance would have done the same thing -- refused to help for fear of weakening their defense of Earth. She fails to realize that her assessment applies to the Alliance being dicks as well. And once again, only if you order her, not because she wants to or agrees with it -- you need someone that's not going to second-guess orders in a crisis.

I don't know why you have an agenda against Ashley and frankly not interested. Bear in mind that you don't have to like an order to follow it in the army. Yes, Ash is human and have reasons to distrust aliens, including turians. It's because the Alliance fought turians. A lot of turians also doesn't like or even hate humans. Pressley didn't trust aliens too, military officer and NCO not trusting foreigners on their military vessel, it's shocking, right? Right?

Yeah, Ashley states that every civilization pursues it's own goals and thinks about self-preservation. I don't get why she's hated for that (correct) views.
 

Most wars don't entail the fate of life as we know it. And FYI, Ash admits that her reasons for hating turians are personal, because of what happened to her grandfather. Shepard even calles her out on this by saying she's wrong to blame the turians when the Alliance were the ones that scapegoated him. Ash then has a short monologue about being "damned if you do, damned if you don't" regarding her enlistment in the Alliance.
How exactally do you get this misinterperted justification from her over that? And reading the logs on the wreck of the Normandy SR-1, you find Pressley's datapad where he states that he feels like an absolute fool for how he felt about the aliens, a view that changed largely because of talks with Tali. So even Pressley was able to admit he was being bigoted. "It's shocking, right? Right?"

And it's because Ash's views are why everyone in the galaxy can't get along. She failes to understand that the "Bear and the Dog" mentality applies to how the Council and everyone else views the Alliance. You also seem to fail at grasping the fact that how Ashley sees the Council, is how the Council sees humans in general -- they think that if humans were in charge, they would sick the other races on the bear and run. Something that does happen if the Council is left to die. In the Renagade ending, we end up being guilty of what the Council (both old and new) do in ME3, and we become guilty of it first. The same can be said for every other race regarding each-other. Views like her's don't breed cooperation and understanding -- there's a difference between caution and paranoia.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[silverexile17s]

Br3ad wrote...

What topic? This is just a bash thread. Once the word b*tch was put into the OP, all bets were off. Two, all you are doing is trying to force your assessments onto others and trying to say that "one thinks this way so everyone should." And finally, aren't you the one that mopes around the MP forum complaining about just about everything. Hardly someone who should command respect or authority.

Wrong again. People have been debating on Ashley's character. And I've seen OP's with worse discriptions then this that do more. Haven't you ever heard the term "don't judge a book by it's cover?"
And I only debate what happens in the game, not speculation about it but the actual in-game events. If you don't like it, why are you even on the BSN to begin with? Delete your account and wash your hands of it entirely if you dislike the fourms so much -- you're just trolling here, and you yourself have done nothing but complain and not even post anything regarding to the topic, so you have a long way to go before you can lecture anyone about respect or athority, pal.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
Kaidan still acknowlegded that he was wromg to mistrust Shepard -- that he should have known that Shepard had reasons to do what he/she did. Ashley doesn't even try to resolve it.

And? That doesn't absolve the series of dumb writing.

How should Kaidan have known?

If anything a lot more people should have been suspicious or Shepard should have actually had to work to earn their trust. And by work I don't mean "go to point X as you were told, gun down waves of mooks, make weird decision way above your paygrade, everyone thinks it's the awesomest decision ever because your just so special".

I really don't understand why you take this so seriously. ME is at its core just stupid. It's not worth getting riled up about.
It's like Ashley has insulted you by not going with the flow.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:22 .

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
True but my Shep doesn't have time to be worried about someone's doubts and if he proves them right or wrong he's having little boy nightmares, trying to avoid being Reaper chow and so on. Don't have no time for that.

Your Shepard doesn't have time to do her job? Because it's not your subordinates job to make you feel special, empowered and respected. It's your job to inspire confidence in your decisions and actions that will lead to you having their respect.

But Shepard has time to run errants for random people and fix her crew's daddy issues just fine. Recruiting an unstable murderer and fixing her with the glorious powers of friendship, a dying assassin with family issues for no apparent reason, babysit an AI exploring her humanity (so Joker can get laid) and so on ... oh, and of course there's lots of time for fraternization while the galaxy is burning.

And if said person doesn't hold those feelings and never acknowleges how she made the wrong choice in not trusting you, what does that say? It's not about feeling "special, empowered and respected." It's about having zero doubt that this person has your back in this war for life as we know it. It's pretty important to have people you can 100% trust at your side, and not just following you because you're "a good solider."

The fact that Jack followed Shepard in spite of the Cerberus ties didn't tell you anything? They trusted Shepard because Shepard opened up to them, helped them resolve their doubts. Hell, Kaidan does this at the hospital. Ash never does this until well after all that, and even then, never actually, openly admits that she was ever at fault for not trusting you at Horizon.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
And if said person doesn't hold those feelings and never acknowleges how she made the wrong choice in not trusting you, what does that say?

That in this universe somehow "trusting Shepard" is a universal rule and not following this rule is an offense?

Shepard never acknowledges that working with Cerberus was a waste of time and made everything worse. That's something that really pisses me off sometimes. Ashley not bowing down is not. Ashley has other problems in ME3 but this is not one of them.

silverexile17s wrote...
The fact that Jack followed Shepard in spite of the Cerberus ties didn't tell you anything?

Yes, it tells me the writing is sub par. Jack followed Shepard because the authors wanted a badass **** on Shepard's Dirty Dozen. That's why.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[Xilizhra]

It's worth keeping in mind that in the famous dog analogy, it's actually humanity that's being compared to the dog. The point is that just as we'll never have equal regard for the interests of our dogs as ourselves, alien states will never regard humanity's interests as being as important as their own. As far as her comments about religion, I don't remember the exact context, but I would resist the idea that "Having strong opinions that disagree with the PC's" = bad writing.

Yes, I know what it intended to do. I'm also saying that if they didn't intend her to be a flashpoint of controversy, it was bad or at least rather thoughtless writing, and it's not at all surprising that she got a rather hot reception.

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Kaidan still acknowlegded that he was wromg to mistrust Shepard -- that he should have known that Shepard had reasons to do what he/she did. Ashley doesn't even try to resolve it.

And? That doesn't absolve the series of dumb writing.

How should Kaidan have known?

If anything a lot more people should have been suspicious or Shepard should have actually had to work to earn their trust. And by work I don't mean "go to point X as you were told, gun down waves of mooks, make weird decision way above your paygrade, everyone thinks it's the awesomest decision ever because your just so special".

I really don't understand why you take this so seriously. ME is at its core just stupid. It's not worth getting riled up about.
It's like Ashley has insulted you by not going with the flow.

Kaidan was able to admit that he should have realized that Shepard wouldn't do this without good reasons. Garrus joined Shepard without knowing. So did Tali. Wrex greated Shepard without debate. And Liara was the one that gave Shepard to Cerberus in the first place. Everyone in the old squad took that risk, because even though they didn't know the reasons, they knew Shepard, and knew that Shepard would only do this for good reasons. And upon reflection, Kaidan was able to admit and accept this too. The only one that doesn't is Ashley. That doesn't tell you something?

No, they wouldn't -- Garrus, Tali, Liara, and Wrex all knew Shepard from the fight with Sovergien. Hell, they helped the Commander steal the Normandy from the Citadel. They know Shepard doesn't do bad things without good reasons. Like "end of the galaxy" reasons.  They already followed the Commander to hell and back. They figure Shepard earned their trust long ago. Kaidan realizes this too in the Hospital when reflecting on the events of Horizon. Ash is the only one that doesn't.

That's what the problem is. It's not "going with the flow," it's having trust in the person that saved your ass a dozen times over.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
Kaidan was able to admit that he should have realized that Shepard wouldn't do this without good reasons. Garrus joined Shepard without knowing. So did Tali. Wrex greated Shepard without debate. And Liara was the one that gave Shepard to Cerberus in the first place. Everyone in the old squad took that risk, because even though they didn't know the reasons, they knew Shepard, and knew that Shepard would only do this for good reasons. And upon reflection, Kaidan was able to admit and accept this too. The only one that doesn't is Ashley. That doesn't tell you something?

It tells me that these are characters in a shallow story who act nothing like real people would.

Shepard actually did all this without good reasons. It's why I find ME2 so painful to play through.
And the handwave "I knew you for a few weeks 2 years ago and just know you are infallible and awesome" doesn't fly with me.

[Ryzaki]

? Didn't ME1 take course over the time of months?

[Obadiah]

@silverexile17s
I didn't say you were a Kaiden fanboy, I said you liked him more than Ashley, and you just described why. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions - on a whole range of issues.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[Ryzaki]

klarabella wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
True but my Shep doesn't have time to be worried about someone's doubts and if he proves them right or wrong he's having little boy nightmares, trying to avoid being Reaper chow and so on. Don't have no time for that.

Your Shepard doesn't have time to do her job? Because it's not your subordinates job to make you feel special, empowered and respected. It's your job to inspire confidence in your decisions and actions that will lead to you having their respect.

But Shepard has time to run errants for random people and fix her crew's daddy issues just fine. Recruiting an unstable murderer for her lore-breaking, special biotics and fixing her with the glorious powers of friendship, recruiting a dying assassin with family issues for no apparent reason, babysitting an AI exploring her humanity (so Joker can get laid) and so on ... oh, and of course there's always lots of time for fraternization while the galaxy is burning.

Sad to say no my Shep's job wasn't to be worried about Ashley's doubts when billions of people were dying every day and he was trying to get the resources to complete the crucible done in time. As for the second bit...um...my Shep did that just fine without having Ashley's approval. He sure in hell wasn't going to slow the train so he could cater to her. She could hop on or get left in the dust. She chose the latter. No f***s were given. Kaidan chose the former.

Nope. My shep's job was to get the Catalyst so billions of beings galaxy wide weren't being changed into Reaper fodder. Not hold Ashley's hand and tell him "yes I'm doing everything I do for the right reasons." The damn right reason is currently slaughtering people wholesale. There was no time for that garbage.

Also that was in ME2. Not to mention nice assuming everyone did what you did (I always discourage the EDI Joker romance btw). in ME2 my Shep needed people focused so he could stop the Reapers. He needed to go get that assassin because that assassin was one more body he had against the collectors. Not to mention Ashley's ass sat on the side lines and did diddly squat except have him save her ass and yell at him (I mean ****. Where was the "thanks Shep I would've been a goner back there if not for you?") He couldn't afford to just kick them to the curb or forester them on someone else (which *drumroll* he could in ME3!). ME2 casualties were in the hundreds of thousands. Shep doesn't have time for that "NO I DON'T TRUST YOU YOU HAZ TO EARNZ MY TRUST!" garbage with Ashley in ME3. It's already bad enough he's running around trying to get the Quarians and Geth from killing each other, helping the Krogan so THEY'LL help so he can get some damn help. And getting Ashley's trust has him waste time for what? So she can smile at him? She can go on to Hackett and he can spend his time on someone that isn't so damn high maintence or actually gives him something worth a damn for said high mainteance.

So yeah no my Shep didn't have time for that ****.

As for fraternization yes ther eis time for that. People aren't machines that run on auto all the time. That fraternization provides my Shep with mental health benefits. Plus low maintence. It's not a whole bunch of aggravation and annoyance for little reward. Not to mention most of the bolded happens in ME2. Yes there was time for that in ME2.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:54 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
I didn't say you were a Kaiden fanboy, I said you liked him more than Ashley, and you just described why. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions - on a whole range of issues.

Once again, you're discribing yourself, since you again misinterperted my words -- once again, not once in that entire post did I say I liked him. I said I trusted him, more then Ashley. I didn't like Samara for her black and white views, yet I trusted her due to her character traits of being a generally honest (if not blunt) person. It's never once about "like," it's about TRUST. Perhaps you shoud reconsider your conclusions - "on a whole range of issues."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:54 .