1121 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Sad to say no my Shep's job wasn't to be worried about Ashley's doubts when billions of people were dying every day and he was trying to get the resources to complete the crucible done in time.

You really take that plot seriously, do you?

Also that was in ME2. Not to mention nice assuming everyone did what you did (I always discourage the EDI Joker romance btw).

What I did? It doesn't matter what anyone's Shepard did since it doesn't change the univere's perception of Shepard.

in ME2 my Shep needed people focused so he could stop the Reapers.

In ME2 my Shepard needed strong allies and a galaxy preparing.

Instead she got a pointless death, TIM and Cerberus who ruined her reputation and standing by leaking information and made sure all ties were cut, then insisted defeating the collectors was the most important thing ever because the patterns are there for everyone who wants to see(!?) and told her to recruit a bunch of infantrymen because that's totally what you need when going against the Reapers or their minions: guys with guns.

If anyone has to apologize for ME2 it's Shepard.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Kaidan was able to admit that he should have realized that Shepard wouldn't do this without good reasons. Garrus joined Shepard without knowing. So did Tali. Wrex greated Shepard without debate. And Liara was the one that gave Shepard to Cerberus in the first place. Everyone in the old squad took that risk, because even though they didn't know the reasons, they knew Shepard, and knew that Shepard would only do this for good reasons. And upon reflection, Kaidan was able to admit and accept this too. The only one that doesn't is Ashley. That doesn't tell you something?

It tells me that these are characters in a shallow story who act nothing like real people would.

Shepard actually did all this without good reasons. It's why I find ME2 so painful to play through.
And the handwave "I knew you for a few weeks 2 years ago and just know you are infallible and awesome" doesn't fly with me.

Wrong. This is a war where, again, all life as we know it is at risk. There isn't time for this bull -- you either trust your friends and comrads, or you don't. You either admit your mistakes and resolve them now, or forever hold your peace, since you probably won't get any second chances here.

The Collectors took four colonies by the time Shepard went to Freedom's Progress. Then there were three more taken -- Ferris Fields, New Canton, and Horizon. Alltogether, at least seven colonies - a millon humans in total - were taken by the Collectors. You can look at that number and say "nope, you didn't have a good reason"?! Wow doesn't even cover that.

Oh, it was enough to warrent stealing the Normandy from the Citadel and infiltrating the Terminus Systems to follow Saren and Sovergien, but not enough to warrent follwoing Shepard against giant bugs that she saw herself, and was nearly killed by? How the hell does that make any sense what-so-ever? Even Kaidan, when looking back on it, realizes that he Should have trusted that Shepard must have had good reasons and that he should have trusted his/her judgement.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:03 .

[Ryzaki]

klarabella wrote...
You really take that plot seriously, do you?

Considering that's the plot of the game...yeah.

(Thank god BW didn't do a timer system though. I got enough of that with MOTB. Screw timers)

What I did? It doesn't matter what anyone's Shepard did since it doesn't change the univere's perception of Shepard.

...What does the universe's perception of Shepard have to do with your "well Shep clearly has the time to waste on getting JokerxEDI together CLEARLY he/she should have the time to waste getting Ashley's trust" when...both scenarios for certain Sheps aren't true? 

In ME2 my Shepard needed strong allies and a galaxy preparing.

Instead she got a pointless death, TIM and Cerberus who ruined her reputation and standing by leaking information and made sure all ties were cut, then insisted defeating the collectors was the most important thing ever because the patterns are there for everyone who wants to see(!?) and told her to recruit a bunch of infantrymen because that's totally what you need when going against the Reapers or their minions: guys with guns.

If anyone has to apologize for ME2 it's Shepard.

Too bad she died and the alliance swept everything under the rug.

That was the Collectors fault (Shep's death). TIM and Cerberus did ruin his reputation that is true not that the alliance would've been able to do anything about the Collectors attack on their own. I mean...really did ME1 teach you nothing? The council would've sat on it's ass until it was too late (same with alliance. Only reason Shep is even where he is in ME3 is because of Anderson and Hackett pushing as well). Add to the fact that the alliance simply didn't have the resources to stop the Collectors and the game would've ended before it began.

you funny. I suppose my Shep *should've* let the Reapers roll right in and the collectors collect people at will. At least ME3 would've been over with a critical mission failure far sooner.

Ah well you can play your game and apologize for saving the galaxy and I can play mine and kick Ashley's ass to the curb.  (and best of all suffer no ill effects for doing so! )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
I didn't say you were a Kaiden fanboy, I said you liked him more than Ashley, and you just described why. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions - on a whole range of issues.

Once again, you're discribing yourself, since you again misinterperted my words -- once again, not once in that entire post did I say I liked him. I said I trusted him, more then Ashley. I didn't like Samara for her black and white views, yet I trusted her due to her character traits of being a generally honest (if not blunt) person. It's never once about "like," it's about TRUST. Perhaps you shoud reconsider your conclusions - "on a whole range of issues."

You don't have to say that you "like" Kaiden for it to be obvious that you "like him more" than Ashley.  "Liked him more" is a comparative statement between two people, in this case Ashley and Kaiden. This is different to "liked" which is an absolute statement on something. There is a difference.

Would you rather I said that you "dislike Kaiden less"? Because it is the same thing.

So, no, I'm pretty much describing you who for no good reason is now denying something that is obvious, and is then trying to use my last sentence in a failed attempt to appear witty.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
I didn't say you were a Kaiden fanboy, I said you liked him more than Ashley, and you just described why. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions - on a whole range of issues.

Once again, you're discribing yourself, since you again misinterperted my words -- once again, not once in that entire post did I say I liked him. I said I trusted him, more then Ashley. I didn't like Samara for her black and white views, yet I trusted her due to her character traits of being a generally honest (if not blunt) person. It's never once about "like," it's about TRUST. Perhaps you shoud reconsider your conclusions - "on a whole range of issues."

You don't have to say that you "like" Kaiden for it to be obvious that you "like him more" than Ashley.  "Liked him more" is a comparative statement between two things, in this case Ashley and Kaiden. This is different to "liked" which is an absolute statement on something. There is a difference.

Would you rather I said that you "dislike Kaiden less"? Because it is the same thing.

So, no, I'm pretty much describing you who for no good reason is now denying something that is obviously, then trying to use my last sentence in a failed attempt to appear witty.

NO - that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying (actually impressive that you misinterpert me that much). I dislilke him just as much as Ashley. It's like picking the best of the worse between them. There is no "like" in this period. Just the simple facts about which one is better watching your back, and comparing the two, Kaidan is the more mature and trustworthy one. None of this is based on "like" -- It's based on their respectove personalities side-to-side. Maybe your choices are based on which one you "like" more, but mine aren't -- it's simple statistics I'm argueing. Nothing more, nothing less. You have the wrong difference in mind.

I would rather you not bring it in at all, since personal opinion doesn't count in this at all.

So, NO you aren't. You're "prety much discribing" yourself.. This is about simple statistics -- which one is more trustworthy. Which one is more willing to move past their mistakes and clear the air. The answer is Kaidan.

[Obadiah]

@silverexile17s
I see. So, you dislike them both equally, and this whole 5 or 6 pages where you've been going on and on about the qualities of trust and reliability that Kaiden has more than Ashley, this doesn't cause you to like Kaiden just a little bit more.

I stand corrected.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
I see. So, you dislike them both equally, and this whole 5 or 6 pages where you've been going on and on about the qualities of trust and reliability that Kaiden has more than Ashley, this doesn't cause you to like Kaiden just a little bit more.

I stand corrected.

I'm simply stating Character traits -- I may not like Kaidan anymore then I do Ashley, but I can see that compared to Ashley, I'm better off having my back watched by the person who actually does trust me fully.  You seem to misinterpert me talking about their character traits as being personal interpertation -- it isn't. I'm listing off the character traits that they have. Traits and conversations that take place regardless of how you play the game.  Kaidan is more willing to clear the air and talk it out with Ashley -- thats a fact, as shown when you compare the two scenes together. Kaidan openly admits that he was wrong about Shepard and should have known he/she had reasons for what he/she did. Ashley never does.
Between the two of them, the choice of which is better to have watch your back isn't all that complicated. It's not about "liking" them, it's about which one is the bigger person. More trustworthy one. The one that doesn't have to have me spell out for them "I did what I had to without choice" -- and that is Kaidan, for better or worse. It's as simple as that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:40 .

[Star fury]

silverexile17s wrote...

"Hello? How can you look out there and not believe in something?"
".....because I believe not to believe in any deities?" 

It was totally innocent. Ash wasn't preaching, she wasn't telling anybody that they would burn in hell, if they didn't believe.

silverexile17s wrote...

How so? She's still stubborn

Not a problem.

silverexile17s wrote...

she's still devotely religious

Not a problem. Since then having religious beliefs is a flaw?

silverexile17s wrote...

she's still hard-lined "the world is black and white" opinionated. 

It's only your opinion & it's not a problem.

silverexile17s wrote...

The only thing different is her casual dress and her hairstyle - and she still tends to wear armor on missions.

Which is a bad thing?

Modifié par Star fury, 12 novembre 2013 - 10:07 .

[Star fury]

silverexile17s wrote...

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Kaidan was able to admit that he should have realized that Shepard wouldn't do this without good reasons. Garrus joined Shepard without knowing. So did Tali. Wrex greated Shepard without debate. And Liara was the one that gave Shepard to Cerberus in the first place. Everyone in the old squad took that risk, because even though they didn't know the reasons, they knew Shepard, and knew that Shepard would only do this for good reasons. And upon reflection, Kaidan was able to admit and accept this too. The only one that doesn't is Ashley. That doesn't tell you something?

It tells me that these are characters in a shallow story who act nothing like real people would.

Shepard actually did all this without good reasons. It's why I find ME2 so painful to play through.
And the handwave "I knew you for a few weeks 2 years ago and just know you are infallible and awesome" doesn't fly with me.

Wrong. This is a war where, again, all life as we know it is at risk. There isn't time for this bull -- you either trust your friends and comrads, or you don't. You either admit your mistakes and resolve them now, or forever hold your peace, since you probably won't get any second chances here.

The Collectors took four colonies by the time Shepard went to Freedom's Progress. Then there were three more taken -- Ferris Fields, New Canton, and Horizon. Alltogether, at least seven colonies - a millon humans in total - were taken by the Collectors. You can look at that number and say "nope, you didn't have a good reason"?! Wow doesn't even cover that.

Oh, it was enough to warrent stealing the Normandy from the Citadel and infiltrating the Terminus Systems to follow Saren and Sovergien, but not enough to warrent follwoing Shepard against giant bugs that she saw herself, and was nearly killed by? How the hell does that make any sense what-so-ever? Even Kaidan, when looking back on it, realizes that he Should have trusted that Shepard must have had good reasons and that he should have trusted his/her judgement.

My eyes are bleeding! 

Modifié par Star fury, 12 novembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Too bad she died and the alliance swept everything under the rug.

Too bad this contrived setup was introduced for ME2 only because wouldn't it be cool if Shepard was forced to work with Cerberus and could spent most of the game recruiting a bunch of diverse but stereotypical superhero characters for reasons? But does this even fit the context? I don't care, it sounds cool so add it!

That was the Collectors fault (Shep's death). TIM and Cerberus did ruin his reputation that is true not that the alliance would've been able to do anything about the Collectors attack on their own. I mean...really did ME1 teach you nothing? The council would've sat on it's ass until it was too late (same with alliance. Only reason Shep is even where he is in ME3 is because of Anderson and Hackett pushing as well). Add to the fact that the alliance simply didn't have the resources to stop the Collectors and the game would've ended before it began.

The Alliance didn't have the ressources to do what? Defeat a proxy enemy with no more than three cruisers that were ultimately defeated by one frigate and a bunch of soldiers? Seriously?

you funny. I suppose my Shep *should've* let the Reapers roll right in and the collectors collect people at will. At least ME3 would've been over with a critical mission failure far sooner.

Taking a step back and realizing that the plot doesn't deserve to be taken seriously would be my suggestion. 

One the other hand there must be an audience for juvenile power fantasies that really buy into that sort of stuff.

[Xilizhra]

It was totally innocent. Ash wasn't preaching, she wasn't telling anybody that they would burn in hell, if they didn't believe.

But was effectively saying that nonbelief was stupid, somehow.

[Sir DeLoria]

silverexile17s wrote...

Intelectual capacity is LIFE. The only requirement living beings need is the abilaty to think. To make their own concious choices. Killing them is the same as killing a living being. Sure, lots of people don't know this -- hell, the quarians attacked Rannoch because they didn't know the geth weren't remote-controled Reaper-drones.
But playing from Shepard's POV, you do know, via Legion, that the geth are living beings.

And if all you're going to do is talk about the geth, go to a fourm where they're talking about the geth. Don't clutter a completely unrelated topic with this.

What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

I'm clutteirng the topic? Well now, that's ironic.

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...
But was effectively saying that nonbelief was stupid, somehow.

Nope, she wasn't. 

[Xilizhra]

What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

The biological definition is irrelevant fluff when sapient synthetics can be built.

Nope, she wasn't.

She was. If not in words, then in tone and usage.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:51 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

The biological definition is irrelevant fluff when sapient synthetics can be built.

Ah yes, because our unquestionable human judgement far surpasses the laws of nature. Synthetics are dead constructs of dead material, they are tools, no different from any ordenary computer. They're just better programmed. 

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

The biological definition is irrelevant fluff when sapient synthetics can be built.

Ah yes, because our unquestionable human judgement far surpasses the laws of nature. Synthetics are dead constructs of dead material, they are tools, no different from any ordenary computer. They're just better programmed. 

Nature has no laws in a human sense; certainly it has no desires. And there's nothing inherently, spiritually superior about organic life.

[General TSAR]

Man is superior to his creations, deal with it.

[wolfhowwl]

Toaster/suitrat posters, please go.

[RatThing]

Also funny how Ash is getting trashed because of her religious beliefs even though she hardly even mentions it. On the other hand Thane can pray constantly, and urges you to pray with him on his death bed (which I always decline) but no one cares. Sigh, Aliens get away with everything.
I'm not religious too, but if anyone is confident in his/her faith then so be it. That doesn't make him/her a lesser person.

[General TSAR]

Anyway, Ashley is hardly a hoe for understanding that other species have a pragmatic policy that favors their race over all.

Also good points Rat.

Modifié par General TSAR, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:16 .

[Xilizhra]

Also funny how Ash is getting trashed because of her religious beliefs even though she hardly even mentions it. On the other hand Thane can pray constantly, and urges you to pray with him on his death bed (which I always decline) but no one cares. Sigh, Aliens get away with everything.

Thane doesn't combine it with a very badly phrased degree of speciesism, nor does he imply that it's foolish to not follow some sort of religion. And the whole deathbed prayer thing just seems to be common courtesy.

And if you're claiming that aliens somehow get away with everything, I give you Javik. Also Morinth.

[Br3admax]

People will pass of Javik, more than just you out there. And Morinth is a parasite with literally no point. She's not comparable to most off the other party members. The rest of that looks a lot like "those who don't agree with me, hate my social groups." 

Modifié par Br3ad, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:27 .

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

People will pass of Javik, more than just you out there. And Morinth is a parasite with literally no point. She's not comparable to most off the other party members. The rest of that looks a lot like "those who don't agree with me, hate my social groups." 

"Aliens get away with everything" is not a truthful axiom. And it's Ashley's phrasing in particular, not her belief system (which we don't really know).

Of course, her not mentioning it in ME3 might be a sign that she deconverted.

[Br3admax]

I see nothing wrong with Ashley's phrasing of anything, and she does not use religion as an excuse to hate aliens. You're just trying to demonize someone who disagrees with you. Namely someone who doesn't fully accept aliens after living in the aftermath of them bring about the downfall of your their family name."Deconverted?" Is that a good thing to you? Would it make you feel any better? Also Ashley does mention religion if you romance her.

And yes. Just about every alien is given a pass on the crticism that most human characters receive. It's a truth that I've noticed and it's hypocrisy at it's finest.

[RatThing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also funny how Ash is getting trashed because of her religious beliefs even though she hardly even mentions it. On the other hand Thane can pray constantly, and urges you to pray with him on his death bed (which I always decline) but no one cares. Sigh, Aliens get away with everything.

Thane doesn't combine it with a very badly phrased degree of speciesism, nor does he imply that it's foolish to not follow some sort of religion. And the whole deathbed prayer thing just seems to be common courtesy.

And if you're claiming that aliens somehow get away with everything, I give you Javik. Also Morinth.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. She is only confident in her religion as I would be. She does not force it onto others like Thane, common courtesy or not.  Thane does not let you pray for his salvation but yours. That's a whole different level.

Modifié par RatThing, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:49 .