1121 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I see nothing wrong with Ashley's phrasing of anything, and she does not use religion as an excuse to hate aliens. You're just trying to demonize someone who disagrees with you. Namely someone who doesn't fully accept aliens after living in the aftermath of them bring about the downfall of your their family name."Deconverted?" Is that a good thing to you? Would it make you feel any better? Also Ashley does mention religion if you romance her.

Ironically, you're doing the same thing that the Ashley haters are with me. I'm not trying to demonize anyone, I'm just saying it's not surprising that Ashley was widely disliked.

And yes. Just about every alien is given a pass on the crticism that most human characters receive. It's a truth that I've noticed and it's hypocrisy at it's finest.

I hear this claimed far more often than demonstrated. Usually by large numbers of people criticizing aliens, in fact.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. She is only confident in her religion as I would be. She does not force it onto others like Thane, common courtesy or not. Thane does not let you pray for his salvation but yours. That's a whole different level.

Thane isn't forcing anything on you, to my knowledge.

[maaaad365]

The reason people hate her so much is not for what she stands , or what she says, it's because of her ATTITUDE and HOW she phrases her ideas. She comes as too confident and masculine for a woman. The other female characters in ME have that female soft charm( even Miranda , yes) that she seems to lack.
I've met girls/women like her in real life and they weren't that popular because they were hard to approach.

I find her an interesting character and I don't mind her attitude. It makes her a better soldier, comrade in battle, spectre.
They "patched" her up in ME3, making her more feminine ( the hair, makeup ) , just to please the fans.

Modifié par maaaad365, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:22 .

[Xilizhra]

The reason people hate her so much is not for what she stands , or what she says, it's because of her ATTITUDE and HOW she phrases her ideas. She comes as too confident and masculine for a woman. The other female characters in ME have that female soft charm( even Miranda , yes) that she seems to lack.

What are you on about? I agree with your first sentence, but the second seems highly off-base... at least in my case. She's certainly not noticeably more confident than Miranda or Samara, and as for "masculine..." how do you define that?

[Iakus]

Aaaaand this is why Ash's dialogue in ME3 was watered down so much, I suspect.

Sad, really.

[maaaad365]

She is too rough, reminds me of a drill seargeant , not a loving mother. In ME 1 and 2 she has her hair tied and she uses no make-up. I think that's what the developers meant for her character , to be nothing more than a perfect soldier (grunt) who believes strongly in the Alliance and never questions their policy.
Miranda and Samara are confident , but they don;t have that militaristic attitude, they are more diplomatic in their approach, while Ashley is a direct person who is used to deal with problems the simple way. In the military you don't negociate with the enemy, you destroy them. That's why Ashley's attitude is less compromising./ diplomatic / feminine than Miranda's or Samara's.

[Xilizhra]

maaaad365 wrote...

She is too rough, reminds me of a drill seargeant , not a loving mother. In ME 1 and 2 she has her hair tied and she uses no make-up. I think that's what the developers meant for her character , to be nothing more than a perfect soldier (grunt) who believes strongly in the Alliance and never questions their policy.
Miranda and Samara are confident , but they don;t have that militaristic attitude, they are more diplomatic in their approach, while Ashley is a direct person who is used to deal with problems the simple way. In the military you don't negociate with the enemy, you destroy them. That's why Ashley's attitude is less compromising./ diplomatic / feminine than Miranda's or Samara's.

Samara's attitude toward being arrested is to slaughter her way out of a police station, so I... don't really know if that works. Another issue is that Ashley's approach, as she herself admits, quite frequently leads to her putting her foot in her mouth. If you lack any diplomatic ability, you'll say unlikeable things with more frequency than someone who does have it.

[maaaad365]

iakus wrote...

Aaaaand this is why Ash's dialogue in ME3 was watered down so much, I suspect.

Sad, really.

The fans complained and Bioware/EA listened. I almost din't recognize Ashley in ME3.  I'm sad too, I enjoyed the confrontations I had with her, it proved she was a strong character that stood up for her opinions and beliefs . In ME she is like " whatever, I don't care what you think", " I don't want to be unpopular for what I say".

[Barquiel]

Star fury wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Ashley was one of the better written squadmates in ME1 (probably even the best), but I was never very fond of her. I stongly disagree on her view of aliens (sorry, but calling them bug-eyed monsters has nothing to do with "realism")...and when everyone from Hackett and Anderson to the council had more faith in Shepard than her old teammate, there's something wrong with the picture. There's wary and there's paranoid.

I don't think every single NPC has to be a xenophile like Kelly. 

I am not saying that every NPC has to be a xenophile like Kelly and my Shep...or that xenophobic, ignorant, narrow minded and/or racist humans shouldn't exist in the ME universe. Or course they should exist (especially so soon after first contact), but that doesn't mean I have to like such characters or agree with their views

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see nothing wrong with Ashley's phrasing of anything, and she does not use religion as an excuse to hate aliens. You're just trying to demonize someone who disagrees with you. Namely someone who doesn't fully accept aliens after living in the aftermath of them bring about the downfall of your their family name."Deconverted?" Is that a good thing to you? Would it make you feel any better? Also Ashley does mention religion if you romance her.

Ironically, you're doing the same thing that the Ashley haters are with me. I'm not trying to demonize anyone, I'm just saying it's not surprising that Ashley was widely disliked.

That actually is not what you said. Throwing around words like specism is demonizing, espcially when such things have little ground in truth.

And yes. Just about every alien is given a pass on the crticism that most human characters receive. It's a truth that I've noticed and it's hypocrisy at it's finest.

I hear this claimed far more often than demonstrated. Usually by large numbers of people criticizing aliens, in fact.

Look a little harder. You do such things yourself. Does the word asari bring a few of your points to mind? Remeber when critizing asari meant that we were misogynist, and we clearly were not looking at their actual faults and saying everyone is wrong made us sexist?

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. She is only confident in her religion as I would be. She does not force it onto others like Thane, common courtesy or not. Thane does not let you pray for his salvation but yours. That's a whole different level.

Thane isn't forcing anything on you, to my knowledge.

Force onto=/=force to. 

[Xilizhra]

That actually is not what you said. Throwing around words like specism is demonizing, espcially when such things have little ground in truth.

Speciesism is a matter of degree. Ashley is mildly so. Certainly many characters are moreso than she is.

Look a little harder. You do such things yourself. Does the word asari bring a few of your points to mind? Remeber when critizing asari meant that we were misogynist, and we clearly were not looking at their actual faults and saying everyone is wrong made us sexist?

It wasn't for criticizing the asari, it was the way in which you did so.

Force onto=/=force to.

Nothing is forced either way.

[Br3admax]

Uh huh, sure. Definitely not grasping at straws now.

By the way, what is so misogynist about saying the asari are just as bad as anyone else in any form or fashion? I would very much like to know how that means that we hate women, all women, especially considering that asari are monogendered and are not female, even by their own standards straight from the mouth of Liara. Please enlighten me.

[Mathias]

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! "

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

[Xilizhra]

By the way, what is so misogynist about saying the asari are just as bad as anyone else in any form or fashion?

What I was arguing against was what others were saying about asari being worse than everyone else.

I would very much like to know how that means that we hate women, all women, especially considering that asari are monogendered and are not female, even by their own standards straight from the mouth of Liara. Please enlighten me.

Asari are female, it's just that the distinction doesn't mean that much to asari. Which is what Liara actually says.

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! "

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

Are you talking about the same fans? You're definitely not talking about me; I don't let either Wrex or Javik off for that.

[maaaad365]

Xilizhra wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

She is too rough, reminds me of a drill seargeant , not a loving mother. In ME 1 and 2 she has her hair tied and she uses no make-up. I think that's what the developers meant for her character , to be nothing more than a perfect soldier (grunt) who believes strongly in the Alliance and never questions their policy.
Miranda and Samara are confident , but they don;t have that militaristic attitude, they are more diplomatic in their approach, while Ashley is a direct person who is used to deal with problems the simple way. In the military you don't negociate with the enemy, you destroy them. That's why Ashley's attitude is less compromising./ diplomatic / feminine than Miranda's or Samara's.

Samara's attitude toward being arrested is to slaughter her way out of a police station, so I... don't really know if that works. Another issue is that Ashley's approach, as she herself admits, quite frequently leads to her putting her foot in her mouth. If you lack any diplomatic ability, you'll say unlikeable things with more frequency than someone who does have it.

Samara had to obey The Code, that's why she was obligated to slaughter those who arrested her. I guess the similarity between Ashley and Samara is that Ashley obeys the Alliance as much as Samara obeys The Code.
For the justicars it is normal behaviour and people expect them to be perfectionists, but human soldiers are not.
Like Admiral Hacket said ( paraphrasing ) : "you cannot pay a soldier to believe". Ashley does believe , and that's why she is "odd" compared to other soldiers in the Alliance. Remember that on Virmire she offers to suicide in order to detonate the bomb. You cannot pay anyone to do that, only a " believer " can perform such sacrifice.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...
...
I'm simply stating Character traits -- I may not like Kaidan anymore then I do Ashley, but I can see that compared to Ashley, I'm better off having my back watched by the person who actually does trust me fully.
...

You're linking an "open and apologetic" nature to one of "trust and reliability" which does not really follow. That's why your assessment is an interpretation.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
I dislilke him just as much as Ashley. It's like picking the best of the worse between them.
...

Sure, I get it. You "dislike" Kaiden and Ashley equally.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Although, I'm willing to admit some of this may be biased since I always preferred Kaiden Alenko over Ashley Williams.
To me, Kaiden represented what the Alliance strvies to be - he seemed more down-to-earth and passive, and more willing to take things in moderation. He was open to new ideas, and if he was ever wrong, or ever screwed up or overreacted, he'd admit it and own up to his mistakes. Ashley on the other hand, seemed to represent what the Alliance currently is, and I found her overbearing and brash, and a bit inflexible with her ideals -- she seemed rather closed to new perspectives, and was very stubborn and prideful, rarely - if ever - admitting to having been wrong in her judgements.
Given this, my judgement may not be the most balanced, since I may be speaking out of the fact that I generally preferred Kaiden's more malible persona over Ashley's more steadfast one.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:08 .

[Xilizhra]

Like Admiral Hacket said ( paraphrasing ) : "you cannot pay a soldier to believe". Ashley does believe , and that's why she is "odd" compared to other soldiers in the Alliance. Remember that on Virmire she offers to suicide in order to detonate the bomb. You cannot pay anyone to do that, only a " believer " can perform such sacrifice.

So does Kaidan, who has considerably more diplomatic ability.

[Ryzaki]

klarabella wrote...
Too bad this contrived setup was introduced for ME2 only because wouldn't it be cool if Shepard was forced to work with Cerberus and could spent most of the game recruiting a bunch of diverse but stereotypical superhero characters for reasons? But does this even fit the context? I don't care, it sounds cool so add it!

You know...if you had a problem with the evil genocidal robots coming to destroy us all and we act like BDHs plot you might've wanted to stop after ME1. Or even just paid attention to the marketing in ME2. Hardly the devs fault you didn't read the writing on the wall.

The Alliance didn't have the ressources to do what? Defeat a proxy enemy with no more than three cruisers that were ultimately defeated by one frigate and a bunch of soldiers? Seriously?

Considering they never would've been able to reach said homeworld yeah seriously. Considering they lost almost all their soldiers (that they sent their obviously) and the entire colony for minor data yeah seriously. Considering them moving into the terminus in any significant amount might've started a war. Yeah.

Taking a step back and realizing that the plot doesn't deserve to be taken seriously would be my suggestion. 

One the other hand there must be an audience for juvenile power fantasies that really buy into that sort of stuff.

Taking a step back and realizing "OMG people have different preferences" would be my suggestion to you.

You're playing a video game about saving the world from giant robots. You REALLY think most video games DON'T have an juvenile power fantasy bases? Really? Especially in the area of AAA FPS?

I know I know it's difficult to accept people might just like things you don't and you feel the need to make yourself feel superior with calling them juvenile. But you're the one playing the same juvenile power fantasy I am.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! :D"

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

That's not really flattering her considering she's okay with Tali in the drive core (the one part of the ship that's human dominated) but has problems with Garrus (who's people helped make said ship) and Wrex (who's people probably would be incapable of mimicing said technology even if they did have the engineers for it). Meanwhile the one race she wasn't suspicious of is the one who gets a mini normandy. Wow. What smartz. Many wise. :innocent: I mean I value suspicion as much as the next person but it should at least be consistent and hit the right damn target.

Also isn't a point in her favor how she doesn't seem to consider that neither Anderson, Udina or Shepard already thought about this and considered it worth the risk.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:18 .

[maaaad365]

Xilizhra wrote...

Like Admiral Hacket said ( paraphrasing ) : "you cannot pay a soldier to believe". Ashley does believe , and that's why she is "odd" compared to other soldiers in the Alliance. Remember that on Virmire she offers to suicide in order to detonate the bomb. You cannot pay anyone to do that, only a " believer " can perform such sacrifice.

So does Kaidan, who has considerably more diplomatic ability.

They are similar characters, but Kaidan is a man and the personality fits him better. That's why they didn't change anything about him in ME3.
Remember that he tells Shepard that people find him to be too judgemental.

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...

She was. If not in words, then in tone and usage.

Sorry, don't want to agrue with irrational feelings.

Xilizhra wrote...
Thane doesn't combine it with a very badly phrased degree of speciesism, nor does he imply that it's foolish to not follow some sort of religion. And the whole deathbed prayer thing just seems to be common courtesy.

And if you're claiming that aliens somehow get away with everything, I give you Javik. Also Morinth.

No no no. Judge Ashley's and Thane's religious beliefs only, don't try to mix it with the "racism". And what the hell is your "speciesism"? I sense a hypocrisy too.   

[Xilizhra]

No no no. Judge Ashley's and Thane's religious beliefs only, don't try to mix it with the "racism". And what the hell is your "speciesism"? I sense a hypocrisy too.

It's like racism, but for those of a different species rather than race. Also, I have no quarrel with either one's religious beliefs provided they don't include the notion that they're the only true religion.

[Star fury]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! :D"

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

LMAO, spot on.

[Br3admax]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]By the way, what is so misogynist about saying the asari are just as bad as anyone else in any form or fashion?[/quote]
What I was arguing against was what others were saying about asari being worse than everyone else.
[/quote]
No one argued that.
[quote]I would very much like to know how that means that we hate women, all women, especially considering that asari are monogendered and are not female, even by their own standards straight from the mouth of Liara. Please enlighten me. [/quote]
Asari are female, it's just that the distinction doesn't mean that much to asari. Which is what Liara actually says.
[/quote]
No they aren't female. Gender is a construct for reproductive purposes or has some genetic base. the asari have neither.
[quote]
[quote]Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! :D"

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!" [/quote]
Are you talking about the same fans? You're definitely not talking about me; I don't let either Wrex or Javik off for that.[/quote]
You aren't everyone. They are talking about the majority. 

[Xilizhra]

No one argued that.

Perhaps not you.

No they aren't female. Gender is a construct for reproductive purposes or has some genetic base. the asari have neither.

Asari are an all-female parthenogenic race.

You aren't everyone. They are talking about the majority.

I'd love to see statistics on that.

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's like racism, but for those of a different species rather than race. Also, I have no quarrel with either one's religious beliefs provided they don't include the notion that they're the only true religion.

Feel free to provide me with quotes that Ash "imply that it's foolish to not follow some sort of religion" or her religious beliefs include the notion that they're the only true religion. 

Damn, we don't even know what her religion is! Christianity? Some sort of new religion?

Modifié par Star fury, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:36 .