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[silverexile17s]

General TSAR wrote...

Anyway, Ashley is hardly a hoe for understanding that other species have a pragmatic policy that favors their race over all.

Also good points Rat.

Yet, she doesn't understand that how she feels about the Council is how they see us. They see us as the ones that will leave them behind to face the bear -- which does happen if you abandon the Council to the geth. It's frowned upon because of how hypocritical it is to think that humanity is the only race "the bear and the dog" applies to, when it applies to everyone. Ideals like hers are why the galaxy doesn't get along - they're afraid of being "sicked on the bear" by one-another.

[silverexile17s]

iakus wrote...

Aaaaand this is why Ash's dialogue in ME3 was watered down so much, I suspect.

Sad, really.

It was "watered down" because she was a generally un-apologetic person.

[silverexile17s]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! :D"

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

1) ME3, Wrex says that he grew very found of aliens thanks to his time with Tali, Garrus and Liara. Hell, he sticks his people's neck out to save the turians.

2) He's the troll of the game, and after having his whole race wiped out by the Reapers, he's going to be bitter. Plus that was how his race was to begin with, so you can understand that.

3) Gross misinterpertation, pal. And you didn't even bother to finish the sentances, where she reccomended detaining them. Lack of trust for your squad in the middle of a war for all life as we know it isn't needed or productive. Both of the above at least trusted Shepard's judgement. She didn't.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[silverexile17s]

maaaad365 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

She is too rough, reminds me of a drill seargeant , not a loving mother. In ME 1 and 2 she has her hair tied and she uses no make-up. I think that's what the developers meant for her character , to be nothing more than a perfect soldier (grunt) who believes strongly in the Alliance and never questions their policy.
Miranda and Samara are confident , but they don;t have that militaristic attitude, they are more diplomatic in their approach, while Ashley is a direct person who is used to deal with problems the simple way. In the military you don't negociate with the enemy, you destroy them. That's why Ashley's attitude is less compromising./ diplomatic / feminine than Miranda's or Samara's.

Samara's attitude toward being arrested is to slaughter her way out of a police station, so I... don't really know if that works. Another issue is that Ashley's approach, as she herself admits, quite frequently leads to her putting her foot in her mouth. If you lack any diplomatic ability, you'll say unlikeable things with more frequency than someone who does have it.

Samara had to obey The Code, that's why she was obligated to slaughter those who arrested her. I guess the similarity between Ashley and Samara is that Ashley obeys the Alliance as much as Samara obeys The Code.
For the justicars it is normal behaviour and people expect them to be perfectionists, but human soldiers are not.
Like Admiral Hacket said ( paraphrasing ) : "you cannot pay a soldier to believe". Ashley does believe , and that's why she is "odd" compared to other soldiers in the Alliance. Remember that on Virmire she offers to suicide in order to detonate the bomb. You cannot pay anyone to do that, only a " believer " can perform such sacrifice.

You do know that Kaidan does the same, right? And he's still more oepn a person then her in spite of that?

[KaiserShep]

silverexile17s wrote...
[/u]Right there -- you said biological definition, as if you think all life follows our definitoions. Since when was biological definition the only definition in an infinate galaxy? Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life. Ideals like what you're saying? They border on racisim -- life doesn't [u]have hardline definitions. It can take whatever shape or form it can, be it organic or synthetic.

I guess it helps to remember that a fictional universe establishes its own set of rules. Whether or not artificial intelligence can ever truly qualify as a valid form of life in reality is immaterial, because AI can clearly transcend simple tools in Mass Effect.

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
I'm simply stating Character traits -- I may not like Kaidan anymore then I do Ashley, but I can see that compared to Ashley, I'm better off having my back watched by the person who actually does trust me fully.
...

You're linking an "open and apologetic" nature to one of "trust and reliability" which does not really follow. That's why your assessment is an interpretation.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
I dislilke him just as much as Ashley. It's like picking the best of the worse between them.
...

Sure, I get it. You "dislike" Kaiden and Ashley equally.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Although, I'm willing to admit some of this may be biased since I always preferred Kaiden Alenko over Ashley Williams.
To me, Kaiden represented what the Alliance strvies to be - he seemed more down-to-earth and passive, and more willing to take things in moderation. He was open to new ideas, and if he was ever wrong, or ever screwed up or overreacted, he'd admit it and own up to his mistakes. Ashley on the other hand, seemed to represent what the Alliance currently is, and I found her overbearing and brash, and a bit inflexible with her ideals -- she seemed rather closed to new perspectives, and was very stubborn and prideful, rarely - if ever - admitting to having been wrong in her judgements.
Given this, my judgement may not be the most balanced, since I may be speaking out of the fact that I generally preferred Kaiden's more malible persona over Ashley's more steadfast one.

1) Wrong yet again. I'm linking the "open and apologetic" behavior Kaidan has to being better to fall back on compared to the "closed and self-rightious" behavior Ashley has. It's not an interpertation -- it's how the two characters act, regardless of your actions. It can't be called intereprtation if it happens no matter what. Learn the defitition of interpertation sometime, will you? And the simple fact is that you'd be better off relying on an open mind then a closed one.

2) Don't believe me, that's your problem. It doens't change the truth -- both may not be high on the "fan favorate" list, but one is simply more dependible then the other. That's a hardline fact.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Star fury wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...
She is too rough, reminds me of a drill seargeant , not a loving mother. In ME 1 and 2 she has her hair tied and she uses no make-up. I think that's what the developers meant for her character , to be nothing more than a perfect soldier (grunt) who believes strongly in the Alliance and never questions their policy.

Ashley is "a drill sergeant" or how they are called in the ME universe - the Gunnery Chief. She's not THAT rough like this drill instructor, but still.

Speaking as someone who very nearly became a Drill Sergeant, and as one who had to deal with them, I believe Ashley would be a joke as a Drill Sergeant.

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Wrex: "Damn Turians and Salarians. Can't trust them."
Fans: "Yay Wrex! We love you!"

Javik: *Half his dialogue is being a douche to other races*
Fans: "Oooooh no he di'nt! :D"

Ashley: "This is the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet. Should we give them free reign of the ship?"
Fans: "KILL THE PIG! CUT HER THROAT! SPILL HER BLOOD!"

I didn't even buy From Ashes because I know I would dislike Javik. Wrex does not like Turians and Salarians. He obviously has no problem with Asari, Hanar, Elcor, etc. That is a personal grudge against those civilizations who wronged his people (in his opinion). While I don't always agree with Wrex (I think he forgets that the Krogan were
also responsible for their actions), I can understand why he feels the way he does.

Yes, the roots of Ashley's prejudices are also explained in the first game (familiy history, etc.). But come ME2 one of her few pieces of dialogue is "I'm no fan of aliens"(= all non-humans, not just Turians). It's not as if she hasn't had the opportunity to change her views in light of the non-human crew's efforts to defeat Saren.

And by the time of ME3, he admits that the krogan were largly at fault for the Korgan Rebellions. He admits his people were wrong, and becomes Clan Leader to change the krogan. He eventually forgives them - well, the turians at least due to garrus. And I believe Mordin's actions help him to forvive the salarians.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's like racism, but for those of a different species rather than race. Also, I have no quarrel with either one's religious beliefs provided they don't include the notion that they're the only true religion.

Feel free to provide me with quotes that Ash "imply that it's foolish to not follow some sort of religion" or her religious beliefs include the notion that they're the only true religion.

Damn, we don't even know what her religion is! Cristianity? Some sort of new religion?

"I mean hello? Have you looked out a window. How can you see that and not believe in something?"

Now if Shep was to say something of the effects of "LOL how can you look at the galaxy and believe this is some "grand plan" or was purposely created." Would that not be implying it's foolish to BE religious?

So?

Oh, great comback.
Seriously, the above proves that Ash is at least that self-rightious about her views.

[RatThing]

silverexile17s wrote...

Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life.

life doesn't have hardline definitions.

Most living things are not intelligent and hardly sentient and if there is no definition for life and we can choose what we see as alive or not, very well. I for once choose not to call unnatural things alive. 

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Those people are her superiors though. Surely. Just SURLY they might know more about the situation than she does? (which they do). If she had voiced her concerns in "Commander *I'm* worried about X and Y" and not "Should you/we be letting aliens wander around the ship." I'd be more understanding. As it is she makes it sound like Anderson, Shep and Udina all lacked to think of that possibility.

You lost all credibilty when you mentioned Udina as the authority figure. That politician who almost doomed whole galaxy with the grounding of Normandy or who organised a coup that again almost gifted the galaxy to the Reapers.

Except he is, genius. He's the diplomatic representitive of all of humanity. He was one of the three people that selected Shepard to be a Spectre Canidate -- hell, he was the one that suggested Shepard to Anderson and Hackett. Like it or not, he is as much an athourity figure as Anderson is. His position in the game is proof of that.
So..... who's the one that "lost all credibility?" Because I don't think it's @Ryzaki.

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life.

life doesn't have hardline definitions.

Most living things are not intelligent and hardly sentient and if there is no definition for life and we can choose what we see as alive or not, very well. I for once choose not to call unnatural things alive. 

That's a biased viewpoint, since last I checked, humans didn't have the final say on what the definition of life is for an infinate galaxy.

[RatThing]

No, and humans don't build life either. Nature does, or as Javik says it "the forces around us".

[Sir DeLoria]

silverexile17s wrote...

RatThing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life.

life doesn't have hardline definitions.

Most living things are not intelligent and hardly sentient and if there is no definition for life and we can choose what we see as alive or not, very well. I for once choose not to call unnatural things alive. 

That's a biased viewpoint, since last I checked, humans didn't have the final say on what the definition of life is for an infinate galaxy.

By that logic you can't claim that AIs are alive without having a 'biased viewpoint' either. Like you said, humans don't have the final say in an infinite galaxy:whistle:

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

 Wrex does not like Turians and Salarians. He obviously has no problem with Asari, Hanar, Elcor, etc. That is a personal grudge against those civilizations who wronged his people (in his opinion). While I don't always agree with Wrex (I think he forgets that the Krogan were
also responsible for their actions), I can understand why he feels the way he does.

Wrex, if you have him with you for the the Rachni queen decision: "There are acid tanks rigged up on that thing. Set them off. Millions of my ancestors died to put these things down. Don't let them come back"

Wrex if you have Liara with you: "What's the matter? Are the Asari looking for a new species to cuddle up with?"

edit ( I know, a little blurry)

You do realize you're talking about a member of a race that is going extinct because of the others, right? He's over 1,500 years old and the last sane member of a dying race -- that makes anyone a grumpy troll, so you can understand his views. Ash doesn't have that life-experiance or those many, many years of hard-living to use as an excuse. And even Wrex changed in the three years between games, becoming the most accepting and fair-tempered krogan in Tuchanka's history.  A very stark contrast from how he started out.
All of them changed -- Liara and Tali became more confident and outspoken. Garrus changed from uptight hard-ass to the most laid-back person in the squad. Hell, even kaidan, who is still mostly the same nieve impressionable guy, changes a bit by accepting that Shepard wouldn't have done what he/she did without good reasons and becomes a bit more linient on rule-breakers, like Dr. Bryn's team in Cerberus. The only squad-mate that has no real change or development is Ashley.

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

No, and humans don't build life either. Nature does, or as Javik says it "the forces around us".

So then what right do you have to say that synthetics can't be alive?

Moreover, this is destracting form the topic -- post in a geth debate fourm if you're so intrested in this.

[Sir DeLoria]

silverexile17s wrote...

Necanor wrote...
What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

I'm clutteirng the topic? Well now, that's ironic.

[/u]Right there -- you said biological definition, as if you think all life follows our definitoions. Since when was biological definition the only definition in an infinate galaxy? Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life. Ideals like what you're saying? They border on racisim -- life doesn't [u]have hardline definitions. It can take whatever shape or form it can, be it organic or synthetic.

Aren't you though? This topic is about Ashley Williams' character, and you're making a geth debate.

I find it very cute how you claim my views border on racism:lol:

And no, I'm not trying to make this a Geth debate, I'm simply giving my two cents.

[silverexile17s]

Necanor wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

RatThing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life.

life doesn't have hardline definitions.

Most living things are not intelligent and hardly sentient and if there is no definition for life and we can choose what we see as alive or not, very well. I for once choose not to call unnatural things alive. 

That's a biased viewpoint, since last I checked, humans didn't have the final say on what the definition of life is for an infinate galaxy.

By that logic you can't claim that AIs are alive without having a 'biased viewpoint' either. Like you said, humans don't have the final say in an infinite galaxy:whistle:

So that basically means you admitted to haveing a bias:whistle:
Not to mention, I'm talking about how the A.I. has that opinion of itself. You, like Ashley, seem to fail at realizing that life has no set limits. The only thing we know is that we don't know. Therefore, saying that organics are the only defintion of life is both biased and racist.
So, no, we don't have the final say in an infinate galaxy:innocent:

[silverexile17s]

Necanor wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Necanor wrote...
What? No, by a biological definition of life, Geth and all other robots, no matter how well programmed, aren't alive. Intelectual capacity isn't the only requirement to be considered alive. Ironically, it turns out that the Geth made themselves remote controlled Reaper drones when they're rightful masters showed up.

I'm clutteirng the topic? Well now, that's ironic.

[/u]Right there -- you said biological definition, as if you think all life follows our definitoions. Since when was biological definition the only definition in an infinate galaxy? Intelligence and sentiance are the only things required of life. Ideals like what you're saying? They border on racisim -- life doesn't [u]have hardline definitions. It can take whatever shape or form it can, be it organic or synthetic.

Aren't you though? This topic is about Ashley Williams' character, and you're making a geth debate.

I find it very cute how you claim my views border on racism:lol:

And no, I'm not trying to make this a Geth debate, I'm simply giving my two cents.

I don't see you denying it:whistle:

And again, you keep spaming with talk about geth. Either let it go, or go to a geth debate fourm. Simple as that.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
so it's insulting.

No, it's not unless you're a militant atheist.

Which Shepard can be depending on your choice. In which case, I'd think it would be insulting.

[RatThing]

Lol, it's like I said. Aliens get a free pass. Just find some convenient excuses for them.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So you don't consider the "Hello have you looked out a window? How can anyone look at this world and think it was intentional or any being made it?" insulting to religious people?

Nope, it's a harmless remark unless you're fanatically religious.

Which, again, Shepard can be depending on your choice.

I mean, IDK if you noticed, but Ashley herself notes that her personality tends to make most of her conversations end with her foot in her mouth.

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

Lol, it's like I said. Aliens get a free pass. Just find some convenient excuses for them.

Wrong. You've completely misinterperted yet again -- my point is that no one gets a free pass. Ashley failes to realize that she should be counting the Alliance as among those arrogant, faulty superpowers in the galaxy. My point was that no one deserves a free pass.

[Sir DeLoria]

silverexile17s wrote...
So that basically means you admitted to haveing a bias:whistle:
Not to mention, I'm talking about how the A.I. has that opinion of itself. You, like Ashley, seem to fail at realizing that life has no set limits. The only thing we know is that we don't know. Therefore, saying that organics are the only defintion of life is both biased and racist.
So, no, we don't have the final say in an infinate galaxy:innocent:

Am I biased? Maybe I am, so what? My point was, that by your logic you can't claim AIs to be alive either and you have yet to counter my point. 

I guess you're another one of those "my judgement and morals are superior" people who simply can't accept that someone dare challenge or disagree with their views.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Star fury wrote...
I know it's shocking for you.

That you have a different opinion nah. Not even shocking that'd you'd make that comment.

*flourishes* 

Still thank ra for choices. You can agree with Ashley and be her bestest friend and earn her hard won trust and I can shoot her in the stomach and call it a day.

And nothing of value was lost.

I don't shoot my companions even if I don't quite like them. I'm not like you or so many bsn posters who hate and want to murder this or that party member/NPC. 

Oh yes you are. You don't have a choice but to do so on Virmire. So quite the high and mighty routine -- you're no different then anyone else here.
As for Ashly, I'd rather ignore self-rightious questioning of your motivations - I mean, everything she says can be constructed as insulting to one demographic or another, either with the material itself, her views on it, or how blunt she is about it.