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[Ryzaki]

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Well, that's even worse now, isn't it?
...

No it isn't. See my previous statements as to why I think that.

You don't have to post yours, you've been posting them in triplicate on each page for the last 25 pages.

Somehow I think you'll do it anyway with underlines amd italics. Please, prove me wrong.

Yes, it is. Your previous statements only validate that.

I already did prove you wrong. You just won't admit it. Proof in case -- you haven't countered what I said about it being worse. You instead cut the entire article and am asking me to sort through your comments for something that doesn't likely exist.
I'm the one that sould be asking you to prove me wrong. So, prove me worng.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

.....You know, that's probably the best anyone's ever going to get, is it?

Alright, Rejoyce -- I'm leaving for the night, as I have school in the morning. Probably won't be back for a day or so - congo to your hearts content if you want.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Well, that's even worse now, isn't it?
...

No it isn't. See my previous statements as to why I think that.

You don't have to post yours, you've been posting them in triplicate on each page for the last 25 pages.

Somehow I think you'll do it anyway with underlines amd italics. Please, prove me wrong.

Yes, it is. Your previous statements only validate that.

I already did prove you wrong. You just won't admit it. Proof in case -- you haven't countered what I said about it being worse. You instead cut the entire article and am asking me to sort through your comments for something that doesn't likely exist.
I'm the one that sould be asking you to prove me wrong. So, prove me worng.

Don't have to. You've been spouting interpretation and opinion as fact for... well... as long as you've been posting in this thread. You lose by default.

I however, along with pretty much everyone else, never really claimed to be speaking otherwise.

[Zazzerka]

silverexile17s wrote...

I'm the one that sould be asking you to prove me wrong. So, prove me worng.

How is anyone supposed to prove you worng now that you've resorted to using bold? We can't fight that.

[Ryzaki]

J. Reezy wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

Nuh uh. That's not how this works.

[Star fury]

Zazzerka wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I'm the one that sould be asking you to prove me wrong. So, prove me worng.

How is anyone supposed to prove you worng now that you've resorted to using bold? We can't fight that.

It's a sucker punch from him.

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...

1) There's still a difference here, since your Shepard is a hero no matter what ...

You can still disagree with a hero.

3) Well, it never really seems to occur to her, unless directly told by Shepard, that aliens and humans are pretty much in the same boat when it comes to the "bear and the dog."

I can't argue that. Mainly cause I usually agree with her so I don't know how unaware she is. But what I do know is that even in her "bear and the dog" dialogue she mentions that the person doing it isn't a bad person. It seems to me as though she is very well aware that the aliens doing it aren't the devil. But if push comes to shove they will do that and it's better for the humans to not be so caught off guard when/if it happened. Seems very reasonable and smart to me.  

What is unreasonable is disarming yourself based on the vague hope that it won't happen.

4) Maybe, but since the person they were responding to was Anderson, I doubt they couldn't have compromised. Hell, why not have them accompiny Shepard to the Normandy for a ride back to the Citadel, just so that they'll have the full story to report back with, and talk to Garrus and the other squadmates about this. Get some exposition and information, maybe? And at least Kaidan realizes that he should have figured Shepard would have good reasons for this, which is more then Ashley does.

What makes you think the VS can accept such a ride? What makes you think anyone would trust the VS's report if they did? Why would Anderson send the VS to spy on Shepard if he fully trusted him? Why should the VS go through so much trouble to appeal to Shepard? 

But the real question is: Why would anyone be smart enough to board a heavily bugged out ship with a Commander who reports directly to TIM?

Not to mention that it was a mission where Shepard was getting played like a fool by TIM anyway which meant that Shepard had no control over the situation. 

I think the VS made the right call. Heck I wish my Shepard had the option to split with them. Shepard could have stolen the Normandy, had Tali clean that ship of all bugs, and actually have Liara be useful as the Shadow Broker to stop the Collectors on his own.

5) It still shows that he knows you can't always get the jod done with clean hands. Sometimes you have to dirty them, one way or another.

I know. It also means he isn't above lying to get the job done.

Because he can be judged by the Alliance Admiralty Board the same way a quarian Admiral can be judged by the Quarian Admiralty Board.

Human and Quarian Admiralty Boards aren't the same.

The entire Arrival mission was an off the grid mission that required the use of non Alliance personnel and if you're caught he doesn't know you. Yeah, sounds like a pure Alliance operation that the Alliance would totally approve of *sarcasm*.  The plan went haywire with the destruction of the relay and therefore Shepard HAD to take the blame. I'm sure if none of that happened, Hackett would have kept it on the hush hush. Once again, proving that Hackett will lie if he can get away with it.

6) And this is the person that is supposed to be your second-in-command? The person that supposed to watch your back figuratively as well as literally? Kaidan at least did everything he could to let you know that he trusted you fully. Ashley brushes it off completely. That's the point I'm making -- that between the two, which seems the best choice to put trust in based on their actions?

Both. Why? Neither of them get you killed when they rejoin the Normany. Both are professionals and good at their job, they don't need to your BFF to watch your back. Not when a bullet in it will mean a bullet in theirs next. Seriously, you act like Ash not being your friend means she wants the reapers to win.  

[KaiserShep]

If Shepard doesn't do the operation, then it does become purely Alliance, since it's the 103rd Marine Division that serves as a substitute.

[Xilizhra]

What is unreasonable is disarming yourself based on the vague hope that it won't happen.

Has anyone ever suggested this in any capacity?

Both. Why? Neither of them get you killed when they rejoin the Normany. Both are professionals and good at their job, they don't need to your BFF to watch your back. Not when a bullet in it will mean a bullet in theirs next. Seriously, you act like Ash not being your friend means she wants the reapers to win.

I just have Liara as my second-in-command either way.

[KaiserShep]

Liara doesn't strike me as the type that could adequately serve as a superior officer for an Alliance warship. If it was a strictly civilian craft or a research vessel, then that may be a different story. Garrus would make a better fit, since he actually has military and law enforcement training.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 novembre 2013 - 01:57 .

[spirosz]

Ryzaki wrote...

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

Yes of course, but neither one is more viable as a certain user likes to express. 

[Xilizhra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Liara doesn't strike me as the type that could adequately serve as a superior officer for an Alliance warship. If it was a strictly civilian craft or a research vessel, then that may be a different story. Garrus would make a better fit, since he actually has military and law enforcement training.

Hmmm. Possibly her position works better as an independent advisor, then. In that case, I'll go for Garrus.

[Br3admax]

What CAN she be an advisor over? She doesn't know anything useful to a military officer outside of the area of prothean history. She should just stick to being a researcher.

Modifié par Br3ad, 13 novembre 2013 - 03:08 .

[KaiserShep]

Yeah I mostly see her role fitting best in some scientific field rather than anything involving military strategy, though of course nowhere near on the level of Mordin. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 novembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Flamewielder]

Been away for a long while...but good to be back.

I like both VS, and I think the writers did a good job of making them human yet different in outlook.

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Her comment that she has trouble distinguishing between animals and aliens is also in character: she's a colony girl with very limited real contact with aliens prior to her joining Shep's crew. So her outlook is colored by things like:

1) News of endless batarian slaver raids on human colonies in the Attican Traverse
2) Her grandfather's blacklisting following the Alliance's surrender at Shanxi (following a Turian attack on Alliance vessels)

I think she's entitled to be a bit xenophobic... and not be expected to act like a xenobiologist when she's merely an army grunt at the start of the series.

Aliens can be your friends, as long as you remember they'll look to their own survival first, before helping you. And that's exactly what their initial response is in ME3: "let the humans save themselves; we have our own home worlds to save". Can't blame them for keeping their priorities straight.

Of course you, as Shep, can convince them it is in their best interest to band together; but you are constantly reminded how difficult it is for them to let millions die at home for the "greater good" of the galaxy. A human councillor would have had a very difficult time convincing Humanity they send some of their fleets away from the defence of Earth if, say, the Citadel had been taken to Khar'shan instead of Earth. Only by providing them a convincing way of defeating the Reapers (i.e. the Crucible) and convincing them it is the ONLY way they'll save themselves are you able to get them to get onboard.

So when people say that only Shep gets Ashley to change her outlook somewhat, they're essentially saying she shares something in common with all the known alien races.

Don't blindly trust aliens, be prudent, demonstrate good faith and wait to see if it's reciprocated before handing them resources your own species might need, ensure both species understand they both stand to gain by cooperating, before giving them the keys to your apartment...

[Xilizhra]

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

I think she's entitled to be a bit xenophobic... and not be expected to act like a xenobiologist when she's merely an army grunt at the start of the series.

Well, one could avoid being rude. And I don't think xenophobia is ever an entitlement.

Don't blindly trust aliens, be prudent, demonstrate good faith and wait to see if it's reciprocated before handing them resources your own species might need, ensure both species understand they both stand to gain by cooperating, before giving them the keys to your apartment...

I don't blindly trust anyone, but I'll give the same amount of trust to someone regardless of species.

[AlexMBrennan]

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

That must be why no species has developed altruistic behaviour

[Xilizhra]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

That must be why no species has developed altruistic behaviour

I mean specieswise, sacrificed their entire species for the benefit of another one. Not an individual thing.

[JasonShepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

That must be why no species has developed altruistic behaviour

I mean specieswise, sacrificed their entire species for the benefit of another one. Not an individual thing.

Yeah - if it came down to either the Human race or, say, the Asari, I'm sure almost all humans would pick humanity, and almost all Asari would pick the Asari. Just as we can't really blame Tali for picking the Quarians and Legion picking the Geth at the end of Rannoch.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

Given that to this day people think Ash is comparing aliens to dogs, some people do need it spelled out.  And using even smaller words than were already used.

I think she's entitled to be a bit xenophobic... and not be expected to act like a xenobiologist when she's merely an army grunt at the start of the series.

Well, one could avoid being rude. And I don't think xenophobia is ever an entitlement.

That Ash is rude and tends to shoot her mouth off is a perfectly acceptable reason to not like her.  But her suspicion of aliens is quite understandable when taken from a nationalistic rather than racial perspective.

I don't blindly trust anyone, but I'll give the same amount of trust to someone regardless of species.

If you look at her attitude towards human politicians and corporate types,  you'll see she does the the same thing.

Also, look at how she reacts towards Kirahe and his STG team, and towards Tali.

[Beerfish]

A well written character even with all the foibles. Frustrating to deal with but she was formed by past experiences and being a soldier through and through. Certainly not one of these easily malleable characters that falls at the feet of the hero no matter what action he or she takes.

[Xilizhra]

Given that to this day people think Ash is comparing aliens to dogs, some people do need it spelled out. And using even smaller words than were already used.

Admit, that was a very badly written line.

That Ash is rude and tends to shoot her mouth off is a perfectly acceptable reason to not like her. But her suspicion of aliens is quite understandable when taken from a nationalistic rather than racial perspective.

Assuming nationalism is all there is, which I frankly find unlikely, with lines like the one about bug-eyed monsters and her not being a fan of aliens.

[Obadiah]

JasonShepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

That must be why no species has developed altruistic behaviour

I mean specieswise, sacrificed their entire species for the benefit of another one. Not an individual thing.

Yeah - if it came down to either the Human race or, say, the Asari, I'm sure almost all humans would pick humanity, and almost all Asari would pick the Asari. Just as we can't really blame Tali for picking the Quarians and Legion picking the Geth at the end of Rannoch.

Maybe that's part of what Synthesis is? Giving up your species for the greater good, to defy an us or them mindset? To stop us seeing each other as the dog and the bear.

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:16 .