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[Dextro Milk]

Silver, stop.

I'm not sure why you get such a hard-on for hating on Ashley, but you really need to chill out. She had the right to not trust you, you are working with/along side/using resources and ship of a terrorist party. Shepard can say "Oh yo bro, i dont work for Cerb3rus brah!" but that doesn't make it true. And before you go on some rant overusing underlines, prove to me Shepard doesn't work for Cerberus.

Ashley has no reason to trust you, and considering Miranda almost put a control chip in ur head, Ashley was smart to be cautious. But it's not like you will listen.

[Iakus]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]Given that to this day people think Ash is comparing aliens to dogs, some people do need it spelled out. And using even smaller words than were already used.[/quote]
Admit, that was a very badly written line.[/quote]

I can't, because it made perfect sense to me.  And the end scenerio with the Destiny Ascension exactly mirrored Ash's comparison, but now the Council was the "dog" and Shep has to decide to leave them or stand by them.


[quote]That Ash is rude and tends to shoot her mouth off is a perfectly acceptable reason to not like her. But her suspicion of aliens is quite understandable when taken from a nationalistic rather than racial perspective.[/quote]
Assuming nationalism is all there is, which I frankly find unlikely, with lines like the one about bug-eyed monsters and her not being a fan of aliens.[/quote]

"I don't think humans have some kind of divine mandate, if that's what you mean. I don't think humans are superior"

"I don't think we should turn down allies. I just don't think we should bet on them staying allies"

::on the Terra Firma platform:: "It's a noble ideal.  Too bad so many of your members are just racist"

[Ryzaki]

spirosz wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

Yes of course, but neither one is more viable as a certain user likes to express. 

True true.

I half want to start a synthesis debate for the lulz.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Ryzaki]

JasonShepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I never saw Ash as racist. I believe her bear vs dog analogy is quite logical from a survival point of view: any species that puts another species' survival before its own is sure to be wiped out through natural selection (the "Cosmic Imperative" of Javik; yeah, I don't like him either but he's still right on that)

Has there ever been a single species that has? Ashley's line seems too blatantly obvious to really be worth mentioning if it truly has no speciesist intent.

That must be why no species has developed altruistic behaviour

I mean specieswise, sacrificed their entire species for the benefit of another one. Not an individual thing.

Yeah - if it came down to either the Human race or, say, the Asari, I'm sure almost all humans would pick humanity, and almost all Asari would pick the Asari. Just as we can't really blame Tali for picking the Quarians and Legion picking the Geth at the end of Rannoch.

I wish that was true.

I have had some really hardcore Quarian lovers say the Geth should've just let themselves be killed byt he Quarians rather than dare try to live by siding with the Reapers.

Not enough facepalming in the world.

[Xilizhra]

I can't, because it made perfect sense to me. And the end scenerio with the Destiny Ascension exactly mirrored Ash's comparison, but now the Council was the "dog" and Shep has to decide to leave them or stand by them.

If they didn't want people to think that she was comparing aliens to dogs, they shouldn't have said "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human."

"I don't think humans have some kind of divine mandate, if that's what you mean. I don't think humans are superior"

"I don't think we should turn down allies. I just don't think we should bet on them staying allies"

::on the Terra Firma platform:: "It's a noble ideal. Too bad so many of your members are just racist"

None of which contradicts what I said. She's mildly speciesist in a manner she's somewhat ashamed about, but which slips through.

[maaaad365]

Modifié par maaaad365, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:13 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't, because it made perfect sense to me. And the end scenerio with the Destiny Ascension exactly mirrored Ash's comparison, but now the Council was the "dog" and Shep has to decide to leave them or stand by them.

If they didn't want people to think that she was comparing aliens to dogs, they shouldn't have said "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human."

And as much as the asari/salrians/turians might like humanity, they aren't asari/salarians/turians.

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can regroup" 

"I don't think humans have some kind of divine mandate, if that's what you mean. I don't think humans are superior"

"I don't think we should turn down allies. I just don't think we should bet on them staying allies"

::on the Terra Firma platform:: "It's a noble ideal. Too bad so many of your members are just racist"

None of which contradicts what I said. She's mildly speciesist in a manner she's somewhat ashamed about, but which slips through.

And she distrusts human groups as well.  Cerbeurs, Terra Firma, corporate and political types in general.  And for the same reasons.

Ashley is not a trusting person in general

[Xilizhra]

And as much as the asari/salrians/turians might like humanity, they aren't asari/salarians/turians.

"The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can regroup"

It's the phrasing that was terrible, not the statement (which is just overly obvious).

And she distrusts human groups as well. Cerbeurs, Terra Firma, corporate and political types in general. And for the same reasons.

You're still not actually contradicting me.

[Br3admax]

Ryzaki wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Can we all at least agree people have perfectly justifible reasons for liking and dislike Ashley and call it a day?

Yes of course, but neither one is more viable as a certain user likes to express. 

True true.

I half want to start a synthesis debate for the lulz.

Do it. For the street cred. 

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's the phrasing that was terrible, not the statement (which is just overly obvious).

Why, because the word "dog" is used?  Or an animal in general? 

And she distrusts human groups as well. Cerbeurs, Terra Firma, corporate and political types in general. And for the same reasons.

You're still not actually contradicting me.

I'm demonstrating that Ash is supicious of anyone who doesn't have humanity's best interests in mind.  This goes beyond race. 

[Xilizhra]

Why, because the word "dog" is used? Or an animal in general?

Because, in an analogy about humans, she used "human" to mean "not human."

I'm demonstrating that Ash is supicious of anyone who doesn't have humanity's best interests in mind. This goes beyond race.

This is true. Hence leading to mild speciesism.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why, because the word "dog" is used? Or an animal in general?

Because, in an analogy about humans, she used "human" to mean "not human."

Okay, I can see how that might be a little awkward.  But to me it was still quite clear that she was describing a universal survival trait, not some thing restricted to humans or aliens

I'm demonstrating that Ash is supicious of anyone who doesn't have humanity's best interests in mind. This goes beyond race.

This is true. Hence leading to mild speciesism.

How can Ash be speciest against other humans?

[Xilizhra]

Okay, I can see how that might be a little awkward. But to me it was still quite clear that she was describing a universal survival trait, not some thing restricted to humans or aliens

A lot of people are twitchy about possible bigotry.

How can Ash be speciest against other humans?

I mean that she sees both institutions and other species in similar lights.

[Br3admax]

Why wouldn't you always put humanity first? If I had to choose between humanity and any one else, the the galaxy would be a lot emptier. I see absolutely nothing wrong with caring more about your species than any other. I actually would be more worried about the reverese. 

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Why wouldn't you always put humanity first? If I had to choose between humanity and any one else, the the galaxy would be a lot emptier. I see absolutely nothing wrong with caring more about your species than any other. I actually would be more worried about the reverese. 

Personally, I'll save the most people possible, regardless of species, as genetics do not determine my allegiance; my loyalty is to the galaxy as a whole.

[KaiserShep]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't, because it made perfect sense to me. And the end scenerio with the Destiny Ascension exactly mirrored Ash's comparison, but now the Council was the "dog" and Shep has to decide to leave them or stand by them.

If they didn't want people to think that she was comparing aliens to dogs, they shouldn't have said "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human."

Thing is, she is comparing them to dogs, but at the same time, the comparison does work when trying to put it all in terms most familiar to human beings, and by extension the players, since the dog is the closest animal companion to our own species. Take our own species. No matter what, our own kind would take precedence, because first and foremost the welfare of our own kind is the highest priority, and all other considerations are pretty much secondary. It's reasonable to assume that other species would share a similar mindset.

For myself, if it came down to choosing between saving a colony of human beings and saving a colony of any of the other alien species, I would choose the humans without a second's hesitation.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:38 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, I can see how that might be a little awkward. But to me it was still quite clear that she was describing a universal survival trait, not some thing restricted to humans or aliens

A lot of people are twitchy about possible bigotry.

That sounds like looking for a reason to be offended.

How sad

How can Ash be speciest against other humans?

I mean that she sees both institutions and other species in similar lights.

Except she takes a shine to Tali, thinking of her as a sister.

She volunteers to work alongside Kirahe and his STG team, rather than leave it to Kaidan.

Ash trusts individuals more than institutions.  She distrusts the Salarian Union, the Turian Hierarchy, the Asari Council of Matriarchs.  But she is perfectly capable (as seen above) of befriending individuals.  And I have no doubt she'd be even quicker to befriend an asari who grew up on Earth and ended up joining the Alliance navy.

[Xilizhra]

For myself, if it came down to choosing between saving a colony of human beings and saving a colony of any of the other alien species, I would choose the humans without a second's hesitation.

I would choose whichever had a higher population. If that's equal, I'd choose the one that was more defensible.

Ash trusts individuals more than institutions. She distrusts the Salarian Union, the Turian Hierarchy, the Asari Council of Matriarchs. But she is perfectly capable (as seen above) of befriending individuals. And I have no doubt she'd be even quicker to befriend an asari who grew up on Earth and ended up joining the Alliance navy.

And collectively distrusts their species. She can make individual exceptions, but most racists IRL can do so as well. Relatively few outright despise any and all objects of their racism.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't trust the alien governments either. Heck I have issues with trusting our own.

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

I wouldn't trust the alien governments either. Heck I have issues with trusting our own.

"It's hard to be a patriot and p*ssed at the government.  Who am I supposed to vote for?"

Ashley WIlliams

[Ryzaki]

Br3ad wrote...
Do it. For the street cred. 

What? How to make synthesis half decent for a destroyer?

[Sir DeLoria]

Ryzaki wrote...
I wish that was true. 

I have had some really hardcore Quarian lovers say the Geth should've just let themselves be killed byt he Quarians rather than dare try to live by siding with the Reapers.

Not enough facepalming in the world.

Actually that's a valid point and I've heard a lot of people who dislike the Quarians say that as well. The Reapers will harvest any civilization, synthetic or organic, at some point. Siding with the Reapers voluntarily is about the worst possible thing you could do. By siding with the Reapers all the Geth could have possibly achieved would be a prolongation of their inevitable collective demise, in addition to the destruction of their own creators. I'm sure the Geth weren't as stupid as to believe, that bargaining with the devil would save them.

That alone is enough reason for me to destroy them for good. 

[Xilizhra]

I'm sure the Geth weren't as stupid as to believe, that bargaining with the devil would save them.

Well, it did.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm sure the Geth weren't as stupid as to believe, that bargaining with the devil would save them.

Well, it did.

Because Space Jesus came out of nowhere to save the day. If Shep hadn't been there to help them, both sides would've been doomed. The Geth must've realized that.