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[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I always thought the Illusive's man's "we can control them!" idea was born of indoctrination. The guys a smart man. He surely would've realized that was a terrible idea.

It all seemed harmless...

fair enough he has some terrible ideas.

iakus wrote...
Han'Gerrel seemed like a reasonable enough guy
in ME2.  HE actually had some cogent reasons why the quarians should go
to war with the geth, whether or not you believed in them.

THen in ME3 he apparantly got some lead chips caught in his helmet...

Yeah in ME2 I could at least respect the dude. ME3 though? Ugh.

And UGH THESSIA.

Shep's making me wanna kick him out an airlock right now.

[trenq]

So uhm

Ashley is such a b****

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Why wouldn't you always put humanity first? If I had to choose between humanity and any one else, the the galaxy would be a lot emptier. I see absolutely nothing wrong with caring more about your species than any other. I actually would be more worried about the reverese. 

Personally, I'll save the most people possible, regardless of species, as genetics do not determine my allegiance; my loyalty is to the galaxy as a whole.

The thing about having to choose, you kind of have to choose.  Say a disease plagues humanity, and the only cure will kill all others. I would save humanity. F*ck the galaxy. Humanity will always come first. If two people where trapped in two seperate collapsing buildings, one were turian and one were human, I would save the human. I am under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to care about different species equal to the amount of care that I have for my own. 

[JasonShepard]

I make one, simple, harmless  analogy to the situation at the end of the Rannoch arc, regarding putting your own species first (all other things being equal)... I come back a couple of hours later, and Geth/Quarian has completely derailed the thread. Le sigh.

I guess I ought to try and get things back on track, before people start blaming me for this. 

So... Ashley can be blunt and tactless, and sometimes rude. She'll follow orders, but she isn't afraid to speak her mind. She has a fair bit of scepticism regarding organisations, but is usually more trusting of individuals. In ME1 she has not worked with aliens before, and is cautious that they might not have humanity's best interests at heart.

Is that a fair assessment, or does anyone disagree?

(Disclaimer - I'm an Ash-fan, so I'm fairly likely to be biased in her favour... On the other hand, I know her in-game content fairly well.)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:32 .

[BobZilla84]

My issue concerning Ashley is that both Horizon and Mass Effect 3 was poorly written in regards to Ashley plain and simple in every one of my playthroughs of Mass Effect 2 I always went to see Anderson before Horizon regaining my Spectre Status and I asked about her and then Horizon happened. Then Ashhey is sidelined for a large portion of Mass Effect 3 and to add insult to injury they gave her no scenes besides the drunk scene while it was funny there was no difference between a Romanced Shepard or a Un Romanced one. And I agree about the Cut scenes what a dissapointment and lets not forget all the Bugged Dialogs that were never patched/fixed your really twisting the dagger Bioware.You really made it hard for us Ashleymancers

[Xilizhra]

The thing about having to choose, you kind of have to choose. Say a disease plagues humanity, and the only cure will kill all others. I would save humanity. F*ck the galaxy. Humanity will always come first. If two people where trapped in two seperate collapsing buildings, one were turian and one were human, I would save the human. I am under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to care about different species equal to the amount of care that I have for my own.

I'll make my decisions on a case-by-case basis. If it's one species vs. another, I'll take the one with the higher population (which happens to be asari, conveniently enough). And because of the subjectivity of morality, I'm under no obligation to care about my own species first.

So... Ashley can be blunt and tactless, and sometimes rude. She'll follow orders, but she isn't afraid to speak her mind. She has a fair bit of scepticism regarding organisations, but is usually more trusting of individuals. In ME1 she has not worked with aliens before, and is cautious that they might not have humanity's best interests at heart.

Is that a fair assessment, or does anyone disagree?

Fair enough, although I do think she's mildly speciesist.

[Br3admax]

Morality is irrelevant. And if you'd doom your species to extinction for a bunch of blue people who don't give a flying flip about you, well all the power that you will never receive to you. And the placing of conviently really just shows a bias against your own kind, using that very loosely.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Morality is irrelevant. And if you'd doom your species to extinction for a bunch of blue people who don't give a flying flip about you, well all the power that you will never receive to you. And the placing of conviently really just shows a bias against your own kind, using that very loosely.

Extinction is bad no matter who it happens to; if that's on the table, then I believe the most moral action is to save as many lives as possible.

[eyezonlyii]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Morality is irrelevant. And if you'd doom your species to extinction for a bunch of blue people who don't give a flying flip about you, well all the power that you will never receive to you. And the placing of conviently really just shows a bias against your own kind, using that very loosely.

Extinction is bad no matter who it happens to; if that's on the table, then I believe the most moral action is to save as many lives as possible.

Would you allow a species to go extinct knowing you can clone them at a later date?

[Pee Jae]

 Yep.  From my perspective, she's a little ****y, yes. I came into the series with ME2, so I didn't have the pov or history with the characters from ME1. Even so, I thought Ash was really harsh on Horizon, Kaidan a bit less. Tali was plainly, honestly and openly more loyal to Shepard, just as one example. She calls you on working with Cerberus when she comes aboard and is pretty short with Jacob but she stays.

Don't get me started on all the nagging and snark in ME3. 

[KaiserShep]

Putting a different species over your own does require a dose of misanthropy to really work.

[Xilizhra]

Would you allow a species to go extinct knowing you can clone them at a later date?

Not if there was an alternative.

Putting a different species over your own does require a dose of misanthropy to really work.

Hardly. ME's aliens aren't all that different from humans, after all. I'm somewhat misanthropic, sure, but my arguments here are all based on numbers. Ruthless calculus, if you will.

[eyezonlyii]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you allow a species to go extinct knowing you can clone them at a later date?

Not if there was an alternative.

Putting a different species over your own does require a dose of misanthropy to really work.

Hardly. ME's aliens aren't all that different from humans, after all. I'm somewhat misanthropic, sure, but my arguments here are all based on numbers. Ruthless calculus, if you will.

hardly. if it were such ruthless calculus, you would be in agreement with Massively. As it stands, you're not. Except when it comes to...non humans.

[Xilizhra]

hardly. if it were such ruthless calculus, you would be in agreement with Massively. As it stands, you're not. Except when it comes to...non humans.

It was tongue-in-cheek. In truth, I just want to save as many as possible.

[Ryzaki]

To be frank as I rped it my Shep disliked Ashley ever since saving her ass on Eden Prime. And his opinion of her went down ever since. Good fighter but almost everytime she opens her mouth crap spews out.

at the end of the game my Shep's believes her rank wasn't held back because of her grandfather as much as the fact that she has no tact, diplomacy and while a good fighter he's seen nothing that recommends her as a soldier superior to any other.

Edit: As for saving species yeah my Shep would probably save humanity first (either that or try to save enough of each race that a viable population can be sustained for each group post Reapers). That doesn't translate into Earth Earth Earth though. There's enough people on colonies to suit the enough to breed tidbit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[eyezonlyii]

Ryzaki wrote...

To be frank as I rped it my Shep disliked Ashley ever since saving her ass on Eden Prime. And his opinion of her went down ever since. Good fighter but almost everytime she opens her mouth crap spews out.

at the end of the game my Shep's believes her rank wasn't held back because of her grandfather as much as the fact that she has no tact, diplomacy and while a good fighter he's seen nothing that recommends her as a soldier superior to any other.

My shep just doesn't want her on the ship. There was no reason for Anderson to force her on me. Now, if I could have recruited LT Durand from the outpost mission, I would have, (her armor was beast)

[Bhatair]

I can see where they hostility comes from when you reunite in ME2. Just put yourself in their position, you think one of your best friends, your former commander (possibly lover if you happen to take the route) has been dead for 2 years. You get sent to a colony that gets attacked, all of the people start being abducted by an unknown force. Then you meet your old friend there and find out they are in fact alive and are working with your enemy. Wouldn't you feel a little betrayed an confused?
Miranda even mentions at the start of ME2 that they totally could have implanted Shepard with a control device, how could Ash be sure that exact thing didn't happen?

[Obadiah]

If I might throw out an idea here: Ashley is a racist in a racist galaxy.

To be a racists one doesn't have to be out and out calling for the downfall or enslavement of other races, one just has to make a judgement based on race. I see this happening in-game all the time.

Mordin is a example of this taken to an analytical level. In ME2 he says something like he can make reasonable judgements or guesses on ability about people based on race, except for humans because their statistical distribution of their abilities is much greater - or something. He even uses it to defeat his enemies. The Primarch is another one from ME1 that says, "You humans want blah blah blah...."

Anyway, a plausible depiction of this universe would include a friendly character with a similar mindset - in ME1 that's Ashley. She's got a decent reason for her attitude, the dog and bear thing, and because ME is a racist universe she accurately predicts the reactions of others.

That doesn't mean her behavior is right, and it is up to the player on how to react to her.

I usually try to provide guidance, because I think being an *** about it is not helpful.

Some players just want to shoot her.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:37 .

[eyezonlyii]

I don't remember if I said this in this thread or the locked "what would you change" thread. Anyway, I like Ashley. In Me1 she's like my mom: A tough, enlisted woman who speaks her mind and beliefs. I can dig it, so long as she can cooperate, she's fine.

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...

Admit, that was a very badly written line.

No it's not. It is a a short paraphrase from sci-fi novel "The Killing Star"

Chris L'Etoile wrote...

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When
we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say
with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met
them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien
behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If
an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose
us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by
being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No
species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of
any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and
ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway.
I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

[P. Domi]

^^ Exactly. I have the same link, Star Fury.

[Xilizhra]

No it's not. It is a a short paraphrase from sci-fi novel "The Killing Star"

Ah, so he admitted he did something wrong. We're in agreement, then.

Also, individual members of other species might choose other species over their own, and a race that came to the top long ago may then develop niceness thereafter while they are on top.

[Star fury]

pablodomi wrote...

^^ Exactly. I have the same link, Star Fury.

And here's another quote from Ashley's writer in ME1-2 Chris L'Etoile aka Stormwaltz about her portrayal in ME3. It is absolutely spot on.

We can debate details all day, but let's cut to the chase and talk about artistic intent.

ME1 Ashley was interpreted as a soldier who was attractive. ME3 Ashley was interpreted a sex object who carried a gun.

Compare the iconic appearances of her in the two games. Look at the how prominent the eyeshadow and lip gloss become. Look at how she goes from light contoured armor to something that suggests a "little black dress" and shows off her posterior. Look at how her hair goes from a combat-sensible bun to an in-your-eyes glam cut.

Modifié par Star fury, 14 novembre 2013 - 05:42 .

[Xilizhra]

And here's another quote from Ashley's writer in ME1-2 Chris L'Etoile aka Stormwaltz [/b]about her portrayal in ME3. It is absolutely spot on.

Did he choose to leave Bioware, by the way?

[Star fury]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so he admitted he did something wrong. We're in agreement, then.

Yes, yes he did. He assumed people are smarter than they really are.