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[P. Domi]

Star fury wrote...

And here's another quote from Ashley's writer in ME1-2 Chris L'Etoile aka Stormwaltz [/b]about her portrayal in ME3. It is absolutely spot on.

We can debate details all day, but let's cut to the chase and talk about artistic intent.

ME1 Ashley was interpreted as a soldier who was attractive. ME3 Ashley was interpreted a sex object who carried a gun.

Compare the iconic appearances of her in the two games. Look at the how prominent the eyeshadow and lip gloss become. Look at how she goes from light contoured armor to something that suggests a "little black dress" and shows off her posterior. Look at how her hair goes from a combat-sensible bun to an in-your-eyes glam cut.

Could you give me the link to this post? I like reading Stormwaltz/L'Étoile whenever he writes something about his work on ME. Thanks, Star fury!

[Star fury]

pablodomi wrote...

Could you give me the link to this post? I like reading Stormwaltz/L'Étoile whenever he writes something about his work on ME. Thanks, Star fury!

http://forums.f13.ne...6612#msg1186612

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...
To be frank as I rped it my Shep disliked Ashley ever since saving her ass on Eden Prime. And his opinion of her went down ever since. Good fighter but almost everytime she opens her mouth crap spews out.

at the end of the game my Shep's believes her rank wasn't held back because of her grandfather as much as the fact that she has no tact, diplomacy and while a good fighter he's seen nothing that recommends her as a soldier superior to any other.

I can agree. I never saw the reason for recruiting Ashley. Never understood why she was made to come with me. So I saved her on Eden Prime, big deal. She could had still been assigned to another ship or location. Not hating on her but her and Liara could have been dropped off somewhere while I recruit two of my own choosing in their place.

Edit: Love that quote from Ashley's writer. Pretty much sums up what Ash was saying. The fact remains is that when push comes to shove everyone will care about the safety of their own species first and we basically see that at the start of ME3.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 14 novembre 2013 - 05:23 .

[Iakus]

Star fury wrote...

pablodomi wrote...

^^ Exactly. I have the same link, Star Fury.

And here's another quote from Ashley's writer in ME1-2 Chris L'Etoile aka Stormwaltz [/b]about her portrayal in ME3. It is absolutely spot on.

We can debate details all day, but let's cut to the chase and talk about artistic intent.

ME1 Ashley was interpreted as a soldier who was attractive. ME3 Ashley was interpreted a sex object who carried a gun.

Compare the iconic appearances of her in the two games. Look at the how prominent the eyeshadow and lip gloss become. Look at how she goes from light contoured armor to something that suggests a "little black dress" and shows off her posterior. Look at how her hair goes from a combat-sensible bun to an in-your-eyes glam cut.

Indeed.  Spot on!

::sigh::  How far Bioware has fallen.

[P. Domi]

Hazegurl wrote...

I can agree. I never saw the reason for recruiting Ashley. Never understood why she was made to come with me. So I saved her on Eden Prime, big deal. She could had still been assigned to another ship or location. Not hating on her but her and Liara could have been dropped off somewhere while I recruit two of my own choosing in their place.

Edit: Love that quote from Ashley's writer. Pretty much sums up what Ash was saying. The fact remains is that when push comes to shove everyone will care about the safety of their own species first and we basically see that at the start of ME3.

IMO, it makes sense to re-assign Ashley Williams to the Normandy based on Alenko's report commending her performance on Eden Prime. Also, since she was one the few survivors, her first-hand experience fighting the geth on Eden Prime before the SR-1arrived had made her one of the 'most experienced' combatants against this particularly mysterious enemy. Understand my assertion here, most people haven't seen the geth in centuries, and most of those who did, are dead, It gives her a quite an uncommon insight into their tactics, right?

Since Anderson understand their ship and the crew are going to be engaged in further missions against the geth. she seems like a logical addition to the roster (I agree, she could have been assigned to another ship as well). We should never forget it's a military vessel, so getting another soldier to replace Leroy Jenkins isn't a surprise. 

I also believe (personal opinion) that Anderson has a knack for recognizing talent, and saw in the field reports and in her files that she was a heck of a marine (whether you like her personality more or less, her "technical scores are perfect", as Shepard points out in-game). If he knew about her family background, that we'll never know, but I'd bet Anderson wouldn't give much thought to whomever her granfather was and simply made a decision based on qualifications.

Good night!

Modifié par pablodomi, 14 novembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[KaiserShep]

Star fury wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Admit, that was a very badly written line.

No it's not. It is a a short paraphrase from sci-fi novel "The Killing Star"

Chris L'Etoile wrote...

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When
we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say
with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met
them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien
behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If
an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose
us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by
being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No
species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of
any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and
ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway.
I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

The part I love is that Ashley is absolutely right about the aliens, and as another commenter points out in a different thread, the actions on the part of the aliens do, to at least some extent, vindicate Cerberus.

[Barquiel]

Star fury wrote...

Chris L'Etoile wrote...

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

He gave her lines like...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

...and wonders why people have stereotyped her as "the racist."? How were we supposed to interpret these lines? Imagine if somebody IRL told you "I'm not a fan of black people". What would you think? And you can't tell me that a trained, educated human marine can't tell the asari, turians, salarians, volus, elcor and hanar apart from animals. Mass Effect is not Star Trek, where you have thousands of space-faring species (and when all else fails...the aliens are the ones who're talking).

She's woefuly unaware of alien cultures/lifes, unable to view them individually from the start and just views individual aliens through her opinion of their entire race. I'm not saying she's like those Cerberus idiots, Terra Firma or the KKK (to use the "I'm not a fan of black people" line again), but some of her comments can easily be construed as racism.

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 novembre 2013 - 03:53 .

[Steelcan]

She may not have been intentionally written as racist but she definitely fits the category.

Not that I disapprove of her "Bear/Dog" spiel. She was dead on the money with that one.

[Iakus]

Barquiel wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Chris L'Etoile wrote...

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

He gave her lines like...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

...and wonders why people have stereotyped her as "the racist."? How were we supposed to interpret these lines? Imagine if somebody IRL told you "I'm not a fan of black people". What would you think? And you can't tell me that a trained, educated human marine can't tell the asari, turians, salarians, volus, elcor and hanar apart from animals. Mass Effect is not Star Trek, where you have thousands of space-faring species (and when all else fails...the aliens are the ones who're talking).

She's woefuly unaware of alien cultures/lifes, unable to view them individually from the start and just views individual aliens through her opinion of their entire race. I'm not saying she's like those Cerberus idiots, Terra Firma or the KKK (to use the "I'm not a fan of black people" line again), but some of her comments can easily be construed as racism.

The first three lines is Ash acting jealous of Liara.  She's being catty, even hurtful.  But no more so than she'd be about a human rival.  Is she racist in ME3 when she tells Shepard "I wear armor into battle, not swimwear" about Miranda?

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of extremism" nobody seems willing to finish that sentence.  

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals is specifically aimed at the Keepers.  Ash (and for that matter anyone else) can't tell if they are sentient or not.  If they are "aliens" or "animals"

[jtav]

The use of racist comments when being catty is problematic. "Racist" does not mean she's a horrible person who deserves to die because she hates aliens, It means she has a character flaw. Mordin is more racist than Ashley and it doesn't damn him.

[The Night Mammoth]

iakus wrote...

The first three lines is Ash acting jealous of Liara.  She's being catty, even hurtful.  But no more so than she'd be about a human rival.  Is she racist in ME3 when she tells Shepard "I wear armor into battle, not swimwear" about Miranda?

Well, no, because she's... not... commenting... about Miranda's........ race? Whilst she.... is... about Liara's? Would it be racist for a white human to negatively comment about a black person's skin color in the same context?

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of extremism" nobody seems willing to finish that sentence.  

Yeah, but you realise that she still says she not a fan of aliens, right? 

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals is specifically aimed at the Keepers.  Ash (and for that matter anyone else) can't tell if they are sentient or not.  If they are "aliens" or "animals"

That's an incredibly strange thing to say if its a comment about the Keeper's sentience. Truthfully, I've never understood it. Where are the animals she can't tell the Keepers from?

[Br3admax]

Can we please all actually learn what racist means? Prejudice and stereotypes are not racism.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Can we please all actually learn what racist means? Prejudice and stereotypes are not racism.

Er, yes they are.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Can we please all actually learn what racist means? Prejudice and stereotypes are not racism.

Er, yes they are.

Define racism. Right now. Because if you actually knew anything about the actual meaning of the words that you spout, like "bigot" or "racist" you would know that there is a difference between them. Learn English, Xil. Because racism is about the superiority of one race to the other, which I have seen no evidence of. Educate me on how you define racism and why this is the right answer as compaired to its actual meaning. 

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Can we please all actually learn what racist means? Prejudice and stereotypes are not racism.

Er, yes they are.

racism-noun-the belief that some races of people are better than others.


Prejudice and sterotypes are a different beast than racism.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Can we please all actually learn what racist means? Prejudice and stereotypes are not racism.

Er, yes they are.

Define racism. Right now. Because if you actually knew anything about the actual meaning of the words that you spout, like "bigot" or "racist" you would know that there is a difference between them. Learn English, Xil. Because racism is about the superiority of one race to the other, which I have seen no evidence of. Educate me on how you define racism and why this is the right answer as compaired to its actual meaning. 

Definition 2: Racial prejudice or discrimination.

[Br3admax]

Racial prejudice is a form of prejudice, which is even in that encyclopedia that you want to pretend is a real dictionary.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Racial prejudice is a form of prejudice, which is even in that encyclopedia that you want to pretend is a real dictionary.

You didn't actually look at the link, did you?

[Iakus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Well, no, because she's... not... commenting... about Miranda's........ race? Whilst she.... is... about Liara's? Would it be racist for a white human to negatively comment about a black person's skin color in the same context?

I'd say Ash is commenting on Miranda's physical appearance far more than she comments on Liara's.  Heck she doesn't even comment on Liara's skin color.  She basically says Liara is not human. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of extremism" nobody seems willing to finish that sentence.  

Yeah, but you realise that she still says she not a fan of aliens, right? 

So?  She's clearly less a fan of this human-centric organization.  "No fan" has a multitude of meanings

That's an incredibly strange thing to say if its a comment about the Keeper's sentience. Truthfully, I've never understood it. Where are the animals she can't tell the Keepers from?

Well, Keepers do look like bugs.  Aphids, to be precise.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Definition 2: Racial prejudice or discrimination.

Except she clearly doesn't think that.  At all.

[Barquiel]

Stereotyping is not always racist, but it can definitely cross the line. When you stereotype another race in a demeaning or derogatory way, it can be viewed as racist.

[Xilizhra]

I'd say Ash is commenting on Miranda's physical appearance far more than she comments on Liara's. Heck she doesn't even comment on Liara's skin color. She basically says Liara is not human. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

Which is still a remark about her species.

So? She's clearly less a fan of this human-centric organization. "No fan" has a multitude of meanings

Human organization vs. whole other species.

Well, Keepers do look like bugs. Aphids, to be precise.

Humans look like monkeys. Which nonhuman characters say that?

Except she clearly doesn't think that. At all.

Except we've just given quotes where she says things to that effect.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Racial prejudice is a form of prejudice, which is even in that encyclopedia that you want to pretend is a real dictionary.

You didn't actually look at the link, did you?

"Any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races,” that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features, and that some “races” are innately superior to others."

All the other definitions are ones added by the site itself. Of course you know nothing about the encylopedia. You just tried to find a place that agreeded with you. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 14 novembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Steelcan]

The way I see it Ashely is essentially a rebel without a cause.

She doesn't like aliens and doesn't approve of the Alliance's bridge-building, but she doesn't like Terra Firma or Cerberus either.

So she doesn't like aliens, or human centrists, make up your mind already.

The best part is that she is more xenophobic than the actual Cerberus personnel we see, even the ones that weren't handpicked by TIM.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Racial prejudice is a form of prejudice, which is even in that encyclopedia that you want to pretend is a real dictionary.

You didn't actually look at the link, did you?

"Any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races,” that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features, and that some “races” are innately superior to others."

All the other definitions are ones added by the cite itself. Of course you know nothing about the encylopedia. You just tried to find a place that agreeded with you. 

Which was... the dictionary? The one that you were previously snobbish about me not using when you thought it was a Wikipedia link?

You know that words can have more than one meaning, yes?