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[wolfhowwl]

Unfortunately David7204 got banned again so we don't have anyone to defend the heroism of romancing shy, awkward virgins in Bioware games. 

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Han Shot First wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Her ME1 incarnation is just a poorly written western incarnation of a JRPG naive virginal school girl.

Yeah. I'm surprised she's as popular as she is. I wonder why Mass Effect demographics lean towards this. General gamer demographics still lean towards mid-20s/early 30s with the largest numbers. I'm in my 30s myself. The last thing I need is this juvenile JRPG sh!t. If it is going to be Japanese inspired, I still like the way they convey "women", not girls (Revy in Black Lagoon, or Faye in Cowboy Bebop). That's why, say, Aria is a much cooler Asari in my book. Or even Liara's "dad".

Tali also filled the same roll from ME2 onwards. In ME2 Tali is the western incarnation of the naïve virginal school girl.

That shy, awkward virginal nonsense was one of the aspects I liked least about Liara. (or Tali, for that matter) Sadly that character type seems to appear in nearly every Bioware game. In DA2 it was Merrill except with each of those features turned up to over 9000.

They toned that down big time in ME3, though. The only real problem I had aside from the cheap photoshop was her (extremely out-of-character) passivity in the Rannoch arc.

[Ryzaki]

I don't mind them being in the game personally besides I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be in (I am an Alistair fan).

I would like it if they weren't shoved int he PC face as often though. Merrill was nice in that respect. No "BTW I LOVE YOU" if you didn't flirt first.

Edit: CRAP I just realized I lvled up freaking Fitness instead of Operational Master. goddamnit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[Ravensword]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Unfortunately David7204 got banned again so we don't have anyone to defend the heroism of romancing shy, awkward virgins in Bioware games. 

Ah, yes. David has a knack for that. And, yes, it is a shame that David isn't here to defend his Heroic Virgin Harem.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind them being in the game personally besides I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be in (I am an Alistair fan).

I would like it if they weren't shoved int he PC face as often though. Merrill was nice in that respect. No "BTW I LOVE YOU" if you didn't flirt first.

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there was the unskippable hug cutscene in ME2 and repeat cabin visits in ME3...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[Steelcan]

I've noticed that all these characters are aliens.

Why no human Liaras?

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind them being in the game personally besides I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be in (I am an Alistair fan).

I would like it if they weren't shoved int he PC face as often though. Merrill was nice in that respect. No "BTW I LOVE YOU" if you didn't flirt first.

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there were the repeat cabin visits in ME3...

I do believe it is unconditional, but I won't swear to it

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

I've noticed that all these characters are aliens.

Why no human Liaras?

Are there any human characters like that in Dragon Age? Or are elves close enough not to count as truly "alien?"

[Ravensword]

StreetMagic wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

After reading the Homeworld comic, I had more respect for Tali. They fleshed out that part of her story pretty well.

Too little, too late.

Maybe. There was always something relevant to me about her presence though. Maybe not the character itself, but she represented the Quarians. It was kind of symbolic for Shepard to have a Quarian on his crew (like Saren had the Geth). The story in Homeworld though made the character more personal.

Secondly, Quarians have some parallels to humans, just like Krogan do -- they're all "outsider" races (outside the Council, that is). So it's kind of cool to have these outsiders become heroes.

Garrus and Liara are different though. Garrus is an insider, trying to redeem the Turian image. Liara.. I guess she's kind of a counterpart to Beneziah. Beneziah was trying to save Saren from going down an ugly path, but got dragged down with him. Not sure Liara is any different. lol. They both play a sort of counselor role.

Yes. It would've been nice had these characters been fleshed out during the series.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I've noticed that all these characters are aliens.

Why no human Liaras?

Are there any human characters like that in Dragon Age? Or are elves close enough not to count as truly "alien?"

Well for male LI's Alistair kind of counts, but he is still a competent soldier...kinda

But Leliana doesn't qualify, Isabela certainly doesn't, at all, in any concievable way. 

And I am counting elves as seperate.  Despite the fact that bilogically they have to be closely related.

[wolfhowwl]

Steelcan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind them being in the game personally besides I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be in (I am an Alistair fan).

I would like it if they weren't shoved int he PC face as often though. Merrill was nice in that respect. No "BTW I LOVE YOU" if you didn't flirt first.

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there were the repeat cabin visits in ME3...

I do believe it is unconditional, but I won't swear to it

It wasn't imported if you were an ass to her in ME1 so we have to ignore that, but if it's still conveyed after you ship Veetor off to Cerberus that doesn't reflect well on Tali's character.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
passivity in the Rannoch arc.

The EPIC choice scene was pretty bad. If they didn't want her to attack you and get put down, they could have at least have shown the second squadmate drawing on her so Tali wouldn't look like an idiot.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:18 .

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there was the unskippable hug cutscene in ME2 and repeat cabin visits in ME3...

Pretty sure it's unconditional. I don't hadn Veetor over to Cerberus though so I'm not 100% on it.

Worse is ME2 Shep seems to have lost his ability to go Do Not Want.

[Steelcan]

StreetMagic wrote...

Human Liaras..

Umm.. maybe a mix of Wynne and Leliana in Dragon Age.

oh god Wynne<_<

[Seboist]

Doubt the Veetor bit matters, things have a habit of existing in complete bubbles in the series.

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Human Liaras..

Umm.. maybe a mix of Wynne and Leliana in Dragon Age.

oh god Wynne<_<

Ugggh.

Liara isn't anyone near enough preachy to be Wynne. Good god.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Seboist wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The theory I heard from Julia lately is that Liara is a high-functioning sociopath. Given how calm she is after Benezia, Nyxeris... it actually makes a lot of sense in retrospect.

That'd be cool if true.. if it was actually explored by the writers. But no, I think they actually think it's all OK. There's no master plan here, where they are secretly trying to convey how weird she is, but just not overtly admitting it. They actually think she's normal. That all of this is normal behavior. I think that's what grates on me the most. Because you can call out just about every other character who's crazy (even Shepard/yourself).

Her ME1 incarnation is just a poorly written western incarnation of a JRPG naive virginal school girl.

This is true. We filled in the blanks with our head-canons, and there were a lot of blanks. 

It really would have been cool if the writers did capitalize on Liara's behavior after matricide and murdering Nyxeris. Granted she is an alien, but Asari are an emotional species. She should have shown emotion after she was involved with killing her mother. Yes, her mother was crazy because she was indoctrinated. She was still her mother. Killing her mother was self-defense so it's excusable, but killing Nyxeris was premeditated murder in any court.

Sure, Nyxeris had been gathering information for Tela Vasir. She was "The Observer." She killed Nyxeris, was very cool-headed about it, had gotten rid of the body, and cleaned her office thoroughly before you got back. Now, this is not someone I want to f*** around with. But we overlook the fact that she did commit premeditated murder because this was Liara. And she did this on her own without Commander Shepard.

Skip ahead to ME3. Those two Cerberus soldiers on Mars. It's obvious you're there. She sees you. She shoots them once then walks up to them *pop pop pop* each. You could have interrogated one of them, then killed them.  

Skip ahead to Thessia. Goddess not Thessia! How can this be happening? My people are dying! Then avenge them with each bullet you fire and kill a reaper. "I can't be that callous."  We are now back to pre-self-defense matricide Liara. Totally innocent getting prepped for the love scene because Commander Shepard cannot have sex with a sociopath.

Liara can murder Nyxeris in cold blood, but she can't avenge her people by killing reapers because it would be too callous. 


Then there's Shepard who is a schizoid brick through ME1 and ME2, and in ME3 has two feels: angst or psycho. At least in ME2 you can play it like 

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there was the unskippable hug cutscene in ME2 and repeat cabin visits in ME3...

Pretty sure it's unconditional. I don't hadn Veetor over to Cerberus though so I'm not 100% on it.

Worse is ME2 Shep seems to have lost his ability to go Do Not Want.

From the above it looks like Kelly only mentions it if you were nice to her throughout ME1. I've never been an ass to her or Liara so I guess I just don't know if it applies.

Does a Shepard who threatened to dump Liara back in that volcano on Therum get a hug from her in  ME2 too?

And oh, God, that Mars encounter... "Liaaaaraaa!"

*glances at avatar* Shepard, you're in a relationship with someone else. Kindly wad your tongue back in your mouth, pleasethankyou.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
From the above it looks like Kelly only mentions it if you were nice to her throughout ME1. I've never been an ass to her or Liara so I guess I just don't know if it applies.

Does a Shepard who threatened to dump Liara back in that volcano on Therum get a hug from her in  ME2 too?

I've had it mentioned in games I refused to give her the data though...(I think I even romanced her with a renedouche).

Yeah same renedouche got the hug. There's no avoiding that damn hug.

StreetMagic wrote...

I think she leans towards Wynne in
ME1 at times. Like the stuff about how we need to care about being the
most famous human, and represent humanity well.. and how we're the first
human spectre blah blah. The same thing Wynne does when she idealizes
the Wardens.

Ah I haven't played ME1 in a while but I don't recall Liara being on the level of self righteousness Wynne is.

Oh, God, the Mars encounter... Shepard, wad your tongue back in your mouth.

LOL Exactly my thought. I finally made a Shep that romanced Ashley he's gonna end up with Liara in ME3. I mean that overly longing tone of voice just hit my "wat" button. Perfect for a Liaramance Shep but is extremely awkward with any other Shep.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm trying to remember if Kelly conveyed Tali's interest unconditionally, or if it was only if certain conditions were met. I imagine she'd be pissed at a Shepard who threatened her team with no confirmation of identity on Freedom's Progress and turned Veetor over to Cerberus. If it's unconditional... I can see how people would be miffed by that.

I was... disturbed... when Liara tried to get in Shepard's pants the second time I spoke to her in ME1. Then there was the unskippable hug cutscene in ME2 and repeat cabin visits in ME3...

Pretty sure it's unconditional. I don't hadn Veetor over to Cerberus though so I'm not 100% on it.

Worse is ME2 Shep seems to have lost his ability to go Do Not Want.

From the above it looks like Kelly only mentions it if you were nice to her throughout ME1. I've never been an ass to her or Liara so I guess I just don't know if it applies.

Does a Shepard who threatened to dump Liara back in that volcano on Therum get a hug from her in  ME2 too?

Oh, God, the Mars encounter... Shepard, wad your tongue back in your mouth.

We'll find out when I make more progress on my new playthrough

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

What's strange is when I read the comics, Liara kind of comes off pretty cool. Mac Walters writes her OK on his own. Of course, comics are mostly action based, but still. It was tolerable. And he doesn't go overboard with her obsession, even though the story is revolved around salvaging Shepard's body. He doesn't overstep his bounds in giving her a precise motivation for it. You're free to just see it as a friend helping a friend. In fact, it seems like she could easily have hooked up with Feron in the comics.

I think it's Sylvia whatherface responsible for what we see in the games..

Mac Wrote LotSB.

Sylvia wrote her in ME3.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh, God, the Mars encounter... Shepard, wad your tongue back in your mouth.

LOL Exactly my thought. I finally made a Shep that romanced Ashley he's gonna end up with Liara in ME3. I mean that overly longing tone of voice just hit my "wat" button. Perfect for a Liaramance Shep but is extremely awkward with any other Shep.

I half wonder if it wasn't a glitch. A "friend" Shepard has a distinctly different greeting for Tali in the war room than one who romanced her in ME2, IIRC. More curt, less longing. ME1 had the infamous false lock-in for Liara's romance; maybe there was a curt greeting for Liara in ME3 which simply never triggers. Sort of like the Aethyta glitch... and Tali showing up for the romance scene pre-Chronos after siding with the Geth.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:37 .