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[The Night Mammoth]

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that she doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

There are other crew members aboard the Normandy---trained squad members, even.

Who's to say they didn't instruct Liara in this nebulous space for headcanon, if she didn't previously have this knowledge?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

Liara can do those things because Shepard trained her.

 No, David. Asari receive these things as part of basic education. They learn biotics and martial arts. Read the wikia and codex. Your heroism is off here. Let's also not forget her mother was a powerful matriarch who knew how to handle herself. Liara knew how to handle a pistol on Therum and had one when you met her. She was highly skilled in biotics - Asari receive this training in school as part of basic education. It's just that she regressed instantly for game mechanics. It wasn't because "Shepard taught her."  

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 15 novembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

There are other crew members aboard the Normandy---trained squad members, even.

Who's to say they didn't instruct Liara in this nebulous space for headcanon, if she didn't previously have this knowledge?

They certainly could have contributed. But Shepard seems to be the most apt mentor.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would remove any evidence pointing to that.

Good grief, why? 

Because her characterization is better as someone with no prior experience.

It removes any semblance of credibility whatsoever from the notion that she's capable of functioning with such a squad. No matter how potent you think Shepard's Hero Juice is.

Yeah. Shepard's hero juice only goes as far as himself. He's not there to train or improve the team. They're there because they've of circumstance in ME1 and in ME2, because they've proven themselves already. They're already at the top of their game so to speak. Except for perhaps Ashley, Liara is the only person with no business (from a meta-perspective) on the Normandy.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

There are other crew members aboard the Normandy---trained squad members, even.

Who's to say they didn't instruct Liara in this nebulous space for headcanon, if she didn't previously have this knowledge?

They certainly could have contributed. But Shepard seems to be the most apt mentor.

Ummm No

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

There are other crew members aboard the Normandy---trained squad members, even.

Who's to say they didn't instruct Liara in this nebulous space for headcanon, if she didn't previously have this knowledge?

They certainly could have contributed. But Shepard seems to be the most apt mentor.

Shepard's got more important things to do than refine the Prothean expert's talents.  

The folks on the lower levels, however, seem to have plenty of time on their hands. 

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

The problem is that Liara's background was insufficiently explored, not that she lacked training. She clearly has training, otherwise she wouldn't be able to wear armor/shoot/biotically crush people as well as she does.

I can agree with this. My problem isn't that I want Liara to be untrained. I want to know how she was. 

[Daemul]

Barquiel wrote...

Daemul wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Soldier Shepard can't train Liara to form a singularity or put someone into stasis (in actuality, it would be quite interesting if Liara actually teaches Adept Shepard Singularity). These are advanded biotic skills (Kaidan has only basic biotic skills for example) which usually require years to master...and only the most powerful biotics can accomplish them.

Liara is a trained biotic when we meet her on Therum. But she doesn't have any special weapon/armor trainig...and her skillset in ME1 reflects this. She has Throw, Warp, Lift, Singularity, Barrier, Stasis, Electronics and First Aid.

I don't think Singularity is that advanced, Jack's students use it alot during the Grissom Academy mission and they're teenagers. 

It was mentioned in one of the novels that singularity is among the most advanced of all biotic techniques, but you're right about Jack's students (but they're supposed to be the best and brightest students).

Could it just be that people get given a choice of what biotic techniques they want to learn? Or maybe it's restricted to class? Kaidan being someone who has to focus on tech aswell as biotics won't be able to focus on one and fully master it, unlike Liara and the Grissom students who use biotics only so have the opportunity to master it. 

This doesn't expalin why people like Samara, Morinth and Aria who are superior biotic users to Liara and the Grissom students don't know Singularity, I'm going to take the easy way out and use the "Gameplay" card. Back to Kaidan, I may be wrong, but isn't Reave something only Asari can learn? Miranda seems to know it aswell, so I am probably wrong.

[Barquiel]

Daemul wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Daemul wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Soldier Shepard can't train Liara to form a singularity or put someone into stasis (in actuality, it would be quite interesting if Liara actually teaches Adept Shepard Singularity). These are advanded biotic skills (Kaidan has only basic biotic skills for example) which usually require years to master...and only the most powerful biotics can accomplish them.

Liara is a trained biotic when we meet her on Therum. But she doesn't have any special weapon/armor trainig...and her skillset in ME1 reflects this. She has Throw, Warp, Lift, Singularity, Barrier, Stasis, Electronics and First Aid.

I don't think Singularity is that advanced, Jack's students use it alot during the Grissom Academy mission and they're teenagers. 

It was mentioned in one of the novels that singularity is among the most advanced of all biotic techniques, but you're right about Jack's students (but they're supposed to be the best and brightest students).

Could it just be that people get given a choice of what biotic techniques they want to learn? Or maybe it's restricted to class? Kaidan being someone who has to focus on tech aswell as biotics won't be able to focus on one and fully master it, unlike Liara and the Grissom students who use biotics only so have the opportunity to master it. 

This doesn't expalin why people like Samara, Morinth and Aria who are superior biotic users to Liara and the Grissom students don't know Singularity, I'm going to take the easy way out and use the "Gameplay" card. Back to Kaidan, I may be wrong, but isn't Reave something only Asari can learn? Miranda seems to know it aswell, so I am probably wrong.

I'd imagine that even powerful biotics specialize on certain advanced techniques. Liara has Singularity, Morinth has Dominate, Aria has Flare/Lash, etc. As for Reave...I am not sure. I've just mentioned Singularity because it was explicitly stated in Ascension that it is among the most advanced of all biotic techniques...and is almost impossible to pull off unless the user is enormously powerful and trained. Most biotics - even asari - can't form a combat-capable biotic Singularity. But gameplay is certainly an issue...I am sure Aria could use basic techniques like Lift or Throw if necessary

Modifié par Barquiel, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[Star fury]

Go open the Liara thread and discuss her there, don't ruin this topic.

[Star fury]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yeah. Shepard's hero juice only goes as far as himself. He's not there to train or improve the team. They're there because they've of circumstance in ME1 and in ME2, because they've proven themselves already. They're already at the top of their game so to speak. Except for perhaps Ashley, Liara is the only person with no business (from a meta-perspective) on the Normandy.

Ahem, yeah. Gunnery Sergeant Chief and the only soldier in the party has absolutely no business on the military ship with the marines. Seems legit.

Modifié par Star fury, 15 novembre 2013 - 06:44 .

[DeinonSlayer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

It removes any semblance of credibility whatsoever from the notion that she's capable of functioning with such a squad. No matter how potent you think Shepard's Hero Juice is.

Yeah. Shepard's hero juice only goes as far as himself. He's not there to train or improve the team. They're there because they've of circumstance in ME1 and in ME2, because they've proven themselves already. They're already at the top of their game so to speak. Except for perhaps Ashley, Liara is the only person with no business (from a meta-perspective) on the Normandy.

Ashley would make a good training officer. Zorah, Vakarian and Wrex are trained, but you'd want to be sure they're trained the same way. Breach and clear, for instance, I understand you all stack up on the door and each person has a sector of the room to sweep as they enter. They'd all need to be on the same page - the Turians might approach the same situation differently than the Alliance. Lots of practice in that cargo hold.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Star fury wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yeah. Shepard's hero juice only goes as far as himself. He's not there to train or improve the team. They're there because they've of circumstance in ME1 and in ME2, because they've proven themselves already. They're already at the top of their game so to speak. Except for perhaps Ashley, Liara is the only person with no business (from a meta-perspective) on the Normandy.

Ahem, yeah. Gunnery Sergeant Chief and the only soldier in the party has absolutely no business on the military ship with the marines. Seems legit.

No Special Forces qualifications, no schools where she's learned skills that might make her stand out, no experience in the field (shore assignments and crap posts), history of being black-listed... I'm not seeing anything that makes her not replaceable by someone else of the same rank (who with the benefit of not being black-listed is much, much more likely to have practical field experience and more diverse skills from attending schools that Ashley's name keeps her out of).

She has commendations for being a good infantry squad leader. And that's about it. Sure, she works hard, but she has nothing I need for this mission (except a vagina). Sure, she got screwed by the alliance when she got black-listed, but in all honesty, the very fact that she's been black-listed means I don't want her. It means that she's missed out on all the other experiences, details, and schools to learn different skils (airborne, air assault, etc. and I mean the ME equivalent as such). She's got nothing that another squared away NCO doesn't have (with that NCO having more experience and useful skills). This isn't an infantry mission. This is an assignment that requires a lot of maverick ideas and unorthodox skills that are extraordinary nature. 

Ashley might be one of the best of the ordinary, but that doesn't cut it when it comes to a matter requiring the extraordinary. I don't hold her on that level. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 novembre 2013 - 07:09 .

[David7204]

If anyone on this forum feels that a character attaining success in combat against an opponent with better 'official' training is stupid and contrived, I don't really know what to tell you except...sorry you despise fiction so much? Because that's overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception across all fiction, and particularly video games. More importantly, that norm exists for a very solid reason.

Looking over at my stack of video games, let's see how many of them follow that exception.

Half Life 2? Nope.
Oblivion? Nope.
Fallout 3? Nope
New Vegas? Nope.
Mirror's Edge? Nope.
Grand Theft Auto 5? Nope.
Far Cry 3? Nope.
Mass Effect? Nope.
Skyrim? Nope.
BioShock? Nope.
Borderlands 1 and 2? Nope.
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2? Yep.

Wow. Quite a record right there.

Harry Potter. Indiana Jones. Star Wars. Lord of the Rings. Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.

Modifié par David7204, 15 novembre 2013 - 07:22 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

If anyone on this forum feels that a character attaining success in combat against an opponent with better 'official' training is stupid and contrived, I don't really know what to tell you except...sorry you despise fiction so much? Because that's overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception across all fiction, and particularly video games. More importantly, that norm exists for a very solid reason.

What's the 'solid reason' David. 

Because I think it's just Hollywood stupidity.

[Xilizhra]

Ashley might be one of the best of the ordinary, but that doesn't cut it when it comes to a matter requiring the extraordinary. I don't hold her on that level.

Whether you do or not is sort of irrelevant; the game itself clearly does.

If anyone on this forum feels that a character attaining success in combat against an opponent with better 'official' training is stupid and contrived, I don't really know what to tell you except...sorry you despise fiction so much? Because that's overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception across all fiction, and particularly video games. More importantly, that norm exists for a very solid reason.

Given that much of Liara's training is likely to be unofficial, I think we can still have her have combat experience and fit your particular heroic paradigm.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Logic.

It's the most sensible explanation. Liara doesn't appear to have any experience in combat. Yet she succeeds in combat. The most reasonable assumption is that Shepard trained her.

There are other crew members aboard the Normandy---trained squad members, even.

Who's to say they didn't instruct Liara in this nebulous space for headcanon, if she didn't previously have this knowledge?

They certainly could have contributed. But Shepard seems to be the most apt mentor.

In my most recent playthorugh of ME1 I did Therum then immediately went to the Citadel and then Illos, when the hell was she training?

[Xilizhra]

In my most recent playthorugh of ME1 I did Therum then immediately went to the Citadel and then Illos, when the hell was she training?

In an alternate universe where she wasn't the victim of sequence breaking.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

In my most recent playthorugh of ME1 I did Therum then immediately went to the Citadel and then Illos, when the hell was she training?

In an alternate universe where she wasn't the victim of sequence breaking.

even better that I spent almost all of my dialogue telling her off

I was surprised how hostile you can be to her, seeing as how later she's completely off limits to in game criticism

[DeinonSlayer]

I always wondered how Luke was qualified to fly an X-wing... heck, the crop duster guy from Independence Day had more credibility, Vietnam fighter pilot and all...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 novembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I always wondered how Luke was qualified to fly an X-wing... heck, the crop duster giy from Independence Day had more credibility.

he was a pilot before iirc, but his uncle had grounded his "ship"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley might be one of the best of the ordinary, but that doesn't cut it when it comes to a matter requiring the extraordinary. I don't hold her on that level.

Whether you do or not is sort of irrelevant; the game itself clearly does.

Not really. In fact, the game goes out of it's way to show how unextraordinary Ashley is. She tells you repeatedly that she's just an infantry soldier caught up in events. She even has a moment where she doubts (rightfully in my opinion) how much use she can be compared to the scale of the threat.

[Cainhurst Crow]

How is this thread alive?