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[Undead Han]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

But Ash sucks. Almost has hard as Tali, but not quite. But close.

Sorry, but that just sounds so wrong when taken out of context. My mind is in the gutter...

[Jorji Costava]

Necanor wrote...

This data was gathered from all playthroughs up to early 2013, that's your first two catches. One player can play the game ten times and his choices carry the same weight as ten individual players who each only played the game once. Secondly it's not up-to-date by a long shot, who knows how the stats changed by now? These stats also only incorporate the stats of players who were online at the time. All offline playthroughs are completely ignored.

Fair enough. Still, it's one thing to claim that statistics suggesting that Ashley is more popular are unreliable, and another to claim that more people saved Kaiden on Virmire, which is the original claim that was under discussion. I suppose you're right in that it doesn't matter anyways; we're going to like the characters we like, and dislike the characters we dislike, regardless of whether or not most people agree with us.

On an unrelated note, this suggests that a lot of arguments that frequently come up on these boards need to be abandoned in a hurry (and I don't mean to imply that you personally have ever made these arguments). For instance: "Only 18% of players finished as femshep; therefore she was a waste of resources," or "Most players aren't very smart, because 92% cured the genophage."

[Sir DeLoria]

Han Shot First wrote...

Neither of those things happened.

BSNers hand wave Bioware's statistics when they don't agree with their viewpoints. The truth of the matter, regardless of whether or not some BSNers want to admit it, is that Bioware has a better idea of which characters were more popular than those fans do. The devs have actual have in game statistics whereas those fans just have unsupported opinions.

My argument is, that neither BW nor the fans have a clue of how popular each character is. Simply, because it's more or less impossible to find out. The popularity chart in BW's stats was based merely on how often a character was picked for missions, how enlightening is that?

[Sir DeLoria]

osbornep wrote...

Fair enough. Still, it's one thing to claim that statistics suggesting that Ashley is more popular are unreliable, and another to claim that more people saved Kaiden on Virmire, which is the original claim that was under discussion. 

I agree, which is why I never claimed such a rash thing;)

[Undead Han]

Necanor wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Neither of those things happened.

BSNers hand wave Bioware's statistics when they don't agree with their viewpoints. The truth of the matter, regardless of whether or not some BSNers want to admit it, is that Bioware has a better idea of which characters were more popular than those fans do. The devs have actual have in game statistics whereas those fans just have unsupported opinions.

My argument is, that neither BW nor the fans have a clue of how popular each character is. Simply, because it's more or less impossible to find out. The popularity chart in BW's stats was based merely on how often a character was picked for missions, how enlightening is that?

I think it is a fair indication of what characters are more popular considering players are more likely to leave characters they don't like on the ship. Likewise favorite characters are likely to be on the away team more often. Also assuming romance content was tracked, and why wouldn't it be, that would be another indication of whether or not a character was popular.

[Sir DeLoria]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Ashley sucks. But not as much as Suit Rat Tali Vas Ineedaparachute.

One of the few bright spots of ME3's "choices" and character interactions is I can or let Garrus, bust a cap in Ash. And also get rid of annoying Suit Rat Tali.

Of course this is all subjective.

But Ash sucks. Almost has hard as Tali, but not quite. But close.

It's funny how in the last couple weeks you've switched from "meh, Tali and the Quarians" to "stupid evil suit rats". One too many Geth-Quarian debates, eh?

[RZIBARA]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Ashley sucks. But not as much as Suit Rat Tali Vas Ineedaparachute.

One of the few bright spots of ME3's "choices" and character interactions is I can or let Garrus, bust a cap in Ash. And also get rid of annoying Suit Rat Tali.

Of course this is all subjective.

But Ash sucks. Almost has hard as Tali, but not quite. But close.

isnt this the same guy who thinks ME2 is one of the best games ever made because it won alot of GOTY awards?

lol no

just no, anything you say has no meaning at all

[silverexile17s]

iakus wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1) You mean only after he drew the gun?
And only after 50+ seconds of talking her down? Kaiden at least was more formal - he asked what the hell was going on and didn't instantly assume hostility-- he tried a more neutral stance first, remember? 

Udina:  SHepard's with Cerberus!  He's blocking our escape!
Ashley:  Everybody hang on!  Shepard, what's happening here?

And the fact that after all her talk of hating politicians, she actually had a debate over the word of a politician that screwed you overin ME1 was more trustworthy then Shepard? 

WTF are you talking about? There was never any debate (unless you screwed up along the way, maybe). Heck Shepard even said "We don't have time to negotiate."

Ashley [/u]for doubting you for the word of Udina? If Ash was as loyal as you tried to play her off as, she would have just shot Undia like she always said she wanted to, and done so right off the bat -- she simply didn't trust you. End of story.
IDK if you noticed, but Kaiden took a more neutral stance in that standoff, (What's going on? I don't want to hurt you). And Kaiden hesitating to turn on Udina is more forgivable then Ash doing so, since she was always distrustful of politicians to begin with. So you really don't have a point.
Just putting that out there.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, and starting to think you may simply be trolling.

2) Wrong. The problem is that Ash pretends it never happened. She basically acts like what she said on Horizon was just some bad dream. Kaiden owns up to it and resolves it. Ash buries it and doesn't ever face up to the fact that she shut you out. Even in their respective romance routes, Kaiden is more understanding and forgiving of you brekaing-up/leaving with him then Ashely is.
- "I needed a connection with you and you shut me down. And now you're upset because I moved on? No - you don't get to be angry about that."
Kaiden at least accepts and understands that he was responcible for it. Ashley blames you 100% without even trying to consider weather or not her reactions on Horizon caused a break-up.
It's not "groveling," it's having a damn heart, and the humility to know when you effed up and come clean about it.

Ash said stupid things.  Shepard said stupid things. Personally, I'd rather think Horizon was a bad dream myself.  I blame the writers.  

besides which I've always done loyal playthroughs, so Ash has no cause to complain anyway

3)After
He
Drew
A
Gun
First

And
She
Doubted
You
For
A
Politician
:pinched:

Umm.  No

"Udina, step away from the terminal"  Ash turned her gun on Udina before she knew he was armed.

I mean, after everything she said about not trusting Udina and calling him a slimeball, she still has to debate weather or not Shep is more trustworthy? Kaiden I could understand since he's a bit more idealistic, but Ashley? No, that I don't understand.

Geez, what did you do to Ash that caused this "debate" to happen.  Seriously, I never got that in my playthough.

And I must note that you've gotten confused again -- Shepard never ordered either one to shoot Udina. They fired on their own perogitive. They aimed the guns at him, but that was just a supressing measure to get him to come quietly. You never caused them to shoot him - they make that choice themselves.

Ash believed Shepard and turned her gun on Udina.  In my playthrough without debate or blue/red dialogue.  And will shoot Udina herself if Shepard hesitates.  And this isn't a sign of trust?

1) "Just hang on. I got this - everyone calm down" And that's his follow-up to asking "what's going on" right out of the gate, compared to Ash's "Shepard?" which can be taken either way. Also:
"Come on Shepard, gun drawn on a Councilor? It kinda looks bad." - Kaiden: reasoning.
"I knew the old Shepard - before Cerberus. Right now, I'm not sure who I'm dealing with." - Ashley: accusing.
So.... who seems more reasonable again?:innocent: Come on - at least Kaiden believes it's you, while Ash can't even decide if she does or doesn't think you're a Cerberus robot.

2) And yet, after everything they went through, Ashley was more trusting of Udina. Someone with a more malible personality like Kaiden, I could understand having doubts, but a soldier like Ashley should have reflexively trusted Shepard.
And BTW, the "I don't want to hurt you" line comes from if you didn't visit Kaiden all three times before the Citadel Coup. I've played all the different versions. And Ash is more harsh and vindictive then Kaiden is in every outcome. If you didn't visit and shoot the Virmire Survivor - Kaiden says regretfully that he was only doing his job. Ashley on the other hand says that she hopes the Reapers win and wipe out all life just to spite you. Kaiden is more reasoning and tries to piece it all together, whereas Ashely has to have you spell it out.

3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.

4) She turned her gun on him out of a sense of precaution. Like a police officer -- the gun is a show of force in case of the worst. It doesn't mean they're going to pull the trigger unless you attack them. I mean, you should know by now that not every time someone pulls a gun, it means they're going to shoot you. She didn't shoot him until after he pulled a gun first. And after how vehemient she was about not trusting politicians and after what Udina did in ME1, she should have easily trusted Shepard over him. Kaiden is more forgivable due to his more malible personality, but not her.

5) I played ME1, that's what I did. She hates politicians while Kaiden believes that they're at least trying to look out for us. In the elevator down from your first meeting with the Council in ME1, they talk about politicians. And you obviously didn't play every different way the game can be played. I did, from romance option to simple friend option. She doesn't trust Udina and thinks all politicians are creeps. Yet, she trusts Udina more then Shepard in ME3, since she has to debate between which one is lying -- the Commander who saved her ass, or the Politician that nearly killed them all in ME1. With her gun-ho personality, it shouldn't even be a question of who to trust.

6) Of their own perogitive. They weren't told by you to aim guns at him, and they weren't told by you to shoot him. They both did those things themselves. Shepard convinced them that Udina was up to something, but never ordered them to draw weapons on him or shoot him. They did that themselves. And that *isn't* a sign of trust. That's a sign of having no choice but to shoot the man with the gun.

- All in all, Kaiden is generally the more mature and likible one. He's more even-tempered, level-headed, and tends to think before he acts. He's the kind of person you'd trust to watch your back. Ash is emotional, hot-headed, and tends to act before thinking. She's the kind of person who's back you're always watching (no sexual pun intended).
Kaiden's more flexible, malible, and generally more likable personality tends to be why people save him on Virmire -- he doesn't have any chips on his shoulders and he's not trying to prove anything. He trusts his comrads (wheras Ashley was second-guessing you due to letting aliens like Wrex and Garrus aboard the Normandy), and Kaiden always fesses up to if he makes mistakes or screwed up, and is understanding if his actions cause a rift between him and people he cares about (he understands why Rahna distanced herself from him after he snapped and killed Vyrrnnus, and will understand if his actions on Horizon caused you to move on to someone else). All in all, he's more sympathetic then Ash and generally easier to like.

[General TSAR]

ME1 Ashley is not a racist, she's a realist.

Other species will sacrifice the human race for their own nefarious purposes but unfortunately a lot of people just thought she was racist. It also didn't help that she demonstrated a belief in a higher power which caused the oh so predictable reactions.

Modifié par General TSAR, 10 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[wolfhowwl]

The actually racist alien characters also get a free pass on their bigotry.

[General TSAR]

Good point, Wolf.

[RZIBARA]

Why doesnt any hate the krogan characters and how racist they are?

oh yeah! bcz ther koolz!

[Undead Han]

wolfhowwl wrote...

The actually racist alien characters also get a free pass on their bigotry.

Pretty much.

Unlike Ashley Javik actually is a racist, yet Javik doesn't get half the flak Ashley does.

[silverexile17s]

RZIBARA wrote...

Why doesnt any hate the krogan characters and how racist they are?

oh yeah! bcz ther koolz!

"So your people were infected with a genetic mutation? An infection that makes only a few in a thousand children survive birth? And I suppose it's destroying your entire species?"

"I don't expect you to understand, but don't compare humanity's fate with the krogan."

Wrex's words are the best description here -- after what happened, they've got justification to be bitter. Angry at everyone for either giving them the genophage or letting them be given the genophage. Hell, in Wrex's case, he's angry with the krogan too for bringing in down on themselves with the Krogan Rebellions.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 novembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[silverexile17s]

Han Shot First wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

The actually racist alien characters also get a free pass on their bigotry.

Pretty much.

Unlike Ashley Javik actually is a racist, yet Javik doesn't get half the flak Ashley does.

Um.... just to note, Javik does say he actually likes Ashley's demenior.
Let that sink in, please.

[RZIBARA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

The actually racist alien characters also get a free pass on their bigotry.

Pretty much.

Unlike Ashley Javik actually is a racist, yet Javik doesn't get half the flak Ashley does.

Um.... just to note, Javik does say he actually likes Ashley's demenior.
Let that sink in, please.

did you want to romance wrex?

[RZIBARA]

silverexile17s wrote...

RZIBARA wrote...

Why doesnt any hate the krogan characters and how racist they are?

oh yeah! bcz ther koolz!

"So your people were infected with a genetic mutation? An infection that makes only a few in a thousand children survive birth? And I suppose it's destroying your entire species?"

"I don't expect you to understand, but don't compare humanity's fate with the krogan."

Wrex's words are the best description here -- after what happened, they've got justification to be bitter. Angry at everyone for either giving them the genophage or letting them be given the genophage. Hell, in Wrex's case, he's angry with the krogan too for bringing in down on themselves with the Krogan Rebellions.

Ashley has a reason to not trust aliens, maybe if you actually talked to her youd know.

Your argument is invalid

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.
...

Ashley apologies for her reaction on Horizon in the e-mail she sent.

[RZIBARA]

J. Reezy wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

The actually racist alien characters also get a free pass on their bigotry.

Pretty much.

Unlike Ashley Javik actually is a racist, yet Javik doesn't get half the flak Ashley does.

Um.... just to note, Javik does say he actually likes Ashley's demenior.
Let that sink in, please.

Let something that proves nothing sink in? Okay....

he doesnt actually have a solid argument, so he needs to say something

[General TSAR]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Javik wants to kill all synthetics and throw Legion out the airlock? Hilarious!
Gerrel wants to do the same thing? Punch that racist asshole!

Yeah that pisses me off.

[RZIBARA]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

It's BSN double standards at work, true.

Wrex doesn't trust turians? That's okay, he's a bro!
Ashley is suspicious of turians? She must be a horrible racist!

Javik wants to kill all synthetics and throw Legion out the airlock? Hilarious!
Gerrel wants to do the same thing? Punch that racist asshole!

ME2 Mordin makes no apologies for the genophage? That's all right, he's cool!
Dalatrass doesn't want you to cure it? What a heartless bitch!

yeah, BSN in a nutshell

[Xilizhra]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

It's BSN double standards at work, true.

Wrex doesn't trust turians? That's okay, he's a bro!
Ashley is suspicious of turians? She must be a horrible racist!

Javik wants to kill all synthetics and throw Legion out the airlock? Hilarious!
Gerrel wants to do the same thing? Punch that racist asshole!

ME2 Mordin makes no apologies for the genophage? That's all right, he's cool!
Dalatrass doesn't want you to cure it? What a heartless bitch!

I frequently find Wrex annoying, rather dislike Javik, and sympathize with the Dalatrass' concerns, only finding them very badly timed. Does that help?

[RZIBARA]

I dont punch Garrel for wanting to get rid of Legion, i punch the bastard for firing at a ship while i was still on it