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[P. Domi]

Grayson was, according to the book, the first human fitted with advanced Reaper implants (Dr. Nuri's experiment), and the experiment backfired because they couldn't counter the increasing grip the Reapers held over their test subject and his brain synapses.

Husks were created via nanotechnology, not implants (source: Codex). The technology used in Sanctuary to produce shock troops by the hundreds is more advanced than the quick dragon-teeth method to produce cheap mooks like the husks (incapable of holding firearms, as far as we can see). Husks are a type of low cost, very fast to produce skirmishers.

And of course they got bits and parts of Sovereign after ME 1 (as it's mentioned in "Ascension"), but there's no reference in the codex, in the game or in the novels that the really advanced implants developed for their in promptu and quickly built army were readily available between ME 1 and ME 2, or in ME 2 until after the Suicide Mission.

Modifié par pablodomi, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[silverexile17s]

pablodomi wrote...

Grayson was, according to the book, the first human implanted with advanced Reaper implants (Dr. Nuri's experiment), and the experiment backfired because they couldn't counter the increasing grip the Reapers held over their test subject.

Husks were created via nanotechnology, not implants (source: Codex). The technology used in Sanctuary to produce shock troops by the hundreds is more advanced than the quick dragon-teeth method to produce cheap mooks like the husks (incapable of holding firearms, as far as we can see). Husks are a type of low cost, very fast to produce skirmishers.

And of course they got bits and parts of Sovereign after ME 1 (as it's mentioned in "Ascension"), but there's no reference in the codex, in the game or in the novels that the really advanced implants developed for their in promptu and quickly built army were readily available between ME 1 and ME 2.

But we know that's not true because of the Chasca colony in ME1, where Cerberus released what was apperantly an airbone strain of nanites that mutated the colonists into Husks. Grayson was the first human implanted with clean implants (in other words, implants that they didn't have to tear out of an already-dead Husk to get).

Yet, they are reanimated by implants that "grow" from the nanites, remember? They "sprout" from the nanites like stalks from seeds, and interwieave throughout the body to reanimate it. Also, Grayson was "implanted" by having the nanites injected directly into his skull. That all but confims it's the same tech -- just not recycled from a discected husk.

.... and come to think of it, WTF does this have to do with the original debate about Ashley's temperment vs Kaiden's temperment?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[P. Domi]

Yes, but husks are not the same as the implanted subjects, and there we have to agree because it's obvious husks have very limited capacities, as their name indicates, they're a "husk" of the former being. The level of technological development to counter the issues with Grayson did not take place until after the Suicide Mission. I doubt TIM wanted armies of husks. The shock troops that form the core of Cerberus armies and fleets are "implanted" but under their control and enhanced their skills (so that even kidnapped civilians could function as troops).

I think our point of contention is that you assume the husks had salvageable implants, but I can't say they did because it's not ever mentioned in the different source materials. The codex (written by Chris L'Étoile) talks about nanotechnology, dragon teeth and the drainage of body substances... and space magic, of course

Anyway,I don't want to derail the thread. We'll have to agree to disagree, on the book Retribution, the source of the implant technology and on Ashley. 

Modifié par pablodomi, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, let's look at the effects, would we? Cerberus, whether you destroy the base or not, is a military powerhouse and major villain. So destroying the base did bugger all, didn't it?

Cerberus, while dangerous, is a minor threat compared to the Reapers, and Shepard destroyed what might have become a new capital ship soon enough, in addition to heavily damaging the manpower of the Collectors. Plus, the whole Arrival thing.

I'm not sure that tying up thousands of troops, almost losing the heart of galactic government, losing valuable resources to, and diverting ships and men to fight can be considered a 'minor' threat. The geth-quarian war is a minor incident compared to the Reapers, but it still has galactic significance.

Also, Arrival was an Alliance op that almost didn't need Shepard (they couldn't beat the indoctrination clock), putting the lie to the usual spiel that the Alliance wasn't doing anything. Cerberus didn't do jack **** to slow down the Reapers, a battalion's worth of Alliance soldiers, engineers and spies had to do it.

I said "compared to." They did a lot of damage, but the Collectors could have done that as well, with higher technology. Plus the destruction of the human Reaper. And Shepard's particular (Cerberus-granted) capabilities were necessary for Arrival, as only Shepard could fend off Kenson's sedative due to her cybernetics. It may also have had something to do with how she wasn't wholly indoctrinated by Object Rho.

Also, Cerberus built a new and far superior Normandy, and EDI, both of whom were invaluable. Don't get me wrong, I hate Cerberus, but they played a role in helping the galaxy before they started attacking the whole thing.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.
...

Ashley apologies for her reaction on Horizon in the e-mail she sent.

Again, that's only if you romanced her. With Kaiden, you don't have to romance him to have him fess up to having overreacted on Horizon. That e-mail is invalid because it doesn't excuse how she acts if she isn't romanced. Kaiden apologizes and owns up to his mistakes regardless of if you romancd him or not. Ashley is solely dependant on if you romanced her.

Again, point to Kaiden in my book -- when he makes a mistake, he owns up to it.

Wait, she needs an "excuse" when unromanced? She's supposed to apologise for not trusting Shep when he's resurrected from the dead by a terrorist organization that they fought against in the previous game? That's just silly. Her reaction was perfectly reasonable, if not welcome. I'd only expect a apology if she was romanced. Otherwise its water under the bridge.

Kaiden did.  Ashley refused to admit that she might be even the slightest bit in the wrong -- she turned her heal on you when she was surrounded by proof that Shepard was right. But apperantly, looking back in hindsight at the colony full of dead Collectors and the husks they were using as shock troopers wasn't enough evidence to consider she overreacted and misjudged Shepard. I mean, it was for Kaiden.
Seriously, I'd think that when you turn your back on the person who saved your life, while surrounded by evidence that they're telling the truth, and call them a Traitor to their face, the logical thing to do is apologize. Not make up excuses. Kaiden did the mature thing -- he owned up to his mistakes. Ashley just couldn't swallow her pride and admit that she was wrong about Shepard.

The only evidence on Horizon is that Shep saved Ashley's and half the colonists' lives. That's not evidence that Shepard can be trusted. Besides, she was right. Cerberus leaked information to manipulate the Alliance into planting her or Kaiden out there to attract to Collectors to the colony so Shepard could further his investigation. Cerberus was partially responsible for the attack.

Also, could you be more specific on the "excuses" Ashley made? I'm pretty sure if she talking about it at all she just gave a reason why she acted as she did.

The evidence is that the Collectors had Husks with them, and of course there was the testimony from the colonists who Harbingr spoke to. It's even in the Codex that the survivors remember being spoken to by an entity that called itself "Harbinger."  The fact that Shepard saved the Colony, and the fact that Garrus, (and later on Tali), as well as multiple non-human races working with him despite Cerberus's xenophobic beliefs, should be more then proof enough for anyone that Shepard is on the level. And looking back at it on hindsight, Kaiden realizes that and admits it, saying he was wrong to not trust Shepard.
And being the Terminus colony with the highest population in the area, Horizon was always at risk anyway.

That is not evidence that Shepard or Cerberus can be trusted, or that Shepard is not being manipulated. It is evidence that they have a common enemy.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Ashley attributed her beahvior to the Cerberus ties -- she never once states that she overreacted or that she made a mistake, and says she was perfectly justified in her beliefs. Kaiden does the opposite -- he admits that he knew Shepard better then that and overreacted from the shock of seeing Shepard with Cerberus two years after the Commander was supposedly killed.

Which conversation are you talking about? In the hospital, if Ashley was romanced I heard "I was angry" , but in that case she had sent the apologetic letter. Otherwise, the only thing I heard was something like, "Are you still with Cerberus?" to which the answer was "No" on Mars.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[silverexile17s]

pablodomi wrote...

Yes, but husks are not the same as the implanted subjects, and there we have to agree because it's obvious husks have very limited capacities, as their name indicates, they're a "husk" of the former being. The level of technological development to counter the issues with Grayson did not take place until after the Suicide Mission. I doubt TIM wanted armies of husks. The shock troops that form the core of Cerberus armies and fleets are "implanted" but under their control and enhanced their skills (so that even kidnapped civilians could function as troops).

I think our point of contention is that you assume the husks had salvageable implants, but I can't say they did because it's not ever mentioned in the different source materials. The codex (written by Chris L'Étoile) talks about nanotechnology and the drainage of body substances... and space magic, of course

Anyway,I don't want to derail the thread. We'll have to agree to disagree, on the book Retribution, the source of the implant technology and on Ashley. 

But you can't deny the fact that Cerberus at least had a few working samples of husk-nanites prior to the Suicide Mission. The only difference is that the nanites that were put into Grayson weren't recycled from the corpse of an already-dead husk. Maybe that's the point though - perhaps "clean" implants would be better then the recycled ones taken from post-mortim husks?

I mean, Cerberus was able to create the airbore nanites that  transformed the Chasca colonists into husks, so they at least had some experiance with the process. I know the implants used on Grayson came from the Collector Base, but that wasn't the first time Cerberus messed with Reaper-implantation tech.

But, yeah, agree to disagree.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.
...

Ashley apologies for her reaction on Horizon in the e-mail she sent.

Again, that's only if you romanced her. With Kaiden, you don't have to romance him to have him fess up to having overreacted on Horizon. That e-mail is invalid because it doesn't excuse how she acts if she isn't romanced. Kaiden apologizes and owns up to his mistakes regardless of if you romancd him or not. Ashley is solely dependant on if you romanced her.

Again, point to Kaiden in my book -- when he makes a mistake, he owns up to it.

Wait, she needs an "excuse" when unromanced? She's supposed to apologise for not trusting Shep when he's resurrected from the dead by a terrorist organization that they fought against in the previous game? That's just silly. Her reaction was perfectly reasonable, if not welcome. I'd only expect a apology if she was romanced. Otherwise its water under the bridge.

Kaiden did.  Ashley refused to admit that she might be even the slightest bit in the wrong -- she turned her heal on you when she was surrounded by proof that Shepard was right. But apperantly, looking back in hindsight at the colony full of dead Collectors and the husks they were using as shock troopers wasn't enough evidence to consider she overreacted and misjudged Shepard. I mean, it was for Kaiden.
Seriously, I'd think that when you turn your back on the person who saved your life, while surrounded by evidence that they're telling the truth, and call them a Traitor to their face, the logical thing to do is apologize. Not make up excuses. Kaiden did the mature thing -- he owned up to his mistakes. Ashley just couldn't swallow her pride and admit that she was wrong about Shepard.

The only evidence on Horizon is that Shep saved Ashley's and half the colonists' lives. That's not evidence that Shepard can be trusted. Besides, she was right. Cerberus leaked information to manipulate the Alliance into planting her or Kaiden out there to attract to Collectors to the colony so Shepard could further his investigation. Cerberus was partially responsible for the attack.

Also, could you be more specific on the "excuses" Ashley made? I'm pretty sure if she talking about it at all she just gave a reason why she acted as she did.

The evidence is that the Collectors had Husks with them, and of course there was the testimony from the colonists who Harbingr spoke to. It's even in the Codex that the survivors remember being spoken to by an entity that called itself "Harbinger."  The fact that Shepard saved the Colony, and the fact that Garrus, (and later on Tali), as well as multiple non-human races working with him despite Cerberus's xenophobic beliefs, should be more then proof enough for anyone that Shepard is on the level. And looking back at it on hindsight, Kaiden realizes that and admits it, saying he was wrong to not trust Shepard.
And being the Terminus colony with the highest population in the area, Horizon was always at risk anyway.

That is not evidence that Shepard or Cerberus can be trusted, or that Shepard is not being manipulated. It is evidence that they have a common enemy.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Ashley attributed her beahvior to the Cerberus ties -- she never once states that she overreacted or that she made a mistake, and says she was perfectly justified in her beliefs. Kaiden does the opposite -- he admits that he knew Shepard better then that and overreacted from the shock of seeing Shepard with Cerberus two years after the Commander was supposedly killed.

Which conversation are you talking about? In the hospital, if Ashley was romanced I heard "I was angry" , but in that case she had sent the apologetic letter. Otherwise, the only thing I heard was something like, "Are you still with Cerberus?" to which the answer was "No" on Mars.

And the testimony of Garrus, and later on Tali and Liara, plus Anderson, doesn't account for anything? There was plenty of evidence that Shepard could be trusted -- it was all just ignored. And later on, Kaiden admits that he let his emotions get the better of him and apologizes for it. Ashley doesn't.

In the Hospital -- with a non-romanced Ash. And in all that, both romanced and non-romanced, it's the same -- she never admits that whe was at fault for it. Never admits to you in person that she went too far. Kaiden at least had the guts to fess up to being wrong. Ash won't.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.
...

Ashley apologies for her reaction on Horizon in the e-mail she sent.

Again, that's only if you romanced her. With Kaiden, you don't have to romance him to have him fess up to having overreacted on Horizon. That e-mail is invalid because it doesn't excuse how she acts if she isn't romanced. Kaiden apologizes and owns up to his mistakes regardless of if you romancd him or not. Ashley is solely dependant on if you romanced her.

Again, point to Kaiden in my book -- when he makes a mistake, he owns up to it.

Wait, she needs an "excuse" when unromanced? She's supposed to apologise for not trusting Shep when he's resurrected from the dead by a terrorist organization that they fought against in the previous game? That's just silly. Her reaction was perfectly reasonable, if not welcome. I'd only expect a apology if she was romanced. Otherwise its water under the bridge.

Kaiden did.  Ashley refused to admit that she might be even the slightest bit in the wrong -- she turned her heal on you when she was surrounded by proof that Shepard was right. But apperantly, looking back in hindsight at the colony full of dead Collectors and the husks they were using as shock troopers wasn't enough evidence to consider she overreacted and misjudged Shepard. I mean, it was for Kaiden.
Seriously, I'd think that when you turn your back on the person who saved your life, while surrounded by evidence that they're telling the truth, and call them a Traitor to their face, the logical thing to do is apologize. Not make up excuses. Kaiden did the mature thing -- he owned up to his mistakes. Ashley just couldn't swallow her pride and admit that she was wrong about Shepard.

The only evidence on Horizon is that Shep saved Ashley's and half the colonists' lives. That's not evidence that Shepard can be trusted. Besides, she was right. Cerberus leaked information to manipulate the Alliance into planting her or Kaiden out there to attract to Collectors to the colony so Shepard could further his investigation. Cerberus was partially responsible for the attack.

Also, could you be more specific on the "excuses" Ashley made? I'm pretty sure if she talking about it at all she just gave a reason why she acted as she did.

The evidence is that the Collectors had Husks with them, and of course there was the testimony from the colonists who Harbingr spoke to. It's even in the Codex that the survivors remember being spoken to by an entity that called itself "Harbinger."  The fact that Shepard saved the Colony, and the fact that Garrus, (and later on Tali), as well as multiple non-human races working with him despite Cerberus's xenophobic beliefs, should be more then proof enough for anyone that Shepard is on the level. And looking back at it on hindsight, Kaiden realizes that and admits it, saying he was wrong to not trust Shepard.
And being the Terminus colony with the highest population in the area, Horizon was always at risk anyway.

That is not evidence that Shepard or Cerberus can be trusted, or that Shepard is not being manipulated. It is evidence that they have a common enemy.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Ashley attributed her beahvior to the Cerberus ties -- she never once states that she overreacted or that she made a mistake, and says she was perfectly justified in her beliefs. Kaiden does the opposite -- he admits that he knew Shepard better then that and overreacted from the shock of seeing Shepard with Cerberus two years after the Commander was supposedly killed.

Which conversation are you talking about? In the hospital, if Ashley was romanced I heard "I was angry" , but in that case she had sent the apologetic letter. Otherwise, the only thing I heard was something like, "Are you still with Cerberus?" to which the answer was "No" on Mars.

And the testimony of Garrus, and later on Tali and Liara, plus Anderson, doesn't account for anything? There was plenty of evidence that Shepard could be trusted -- it was all just ignored. And later on, Kaiden admits that he let his emotions get the better of him and apologizes for it. Ashley doesn't.

In the Hospital -- with a non-romanced Ash. And in all that, both romanced and non-romanced, it's the same -- she never admits that whe was at fault for it. Never admits to you in person that she went too far. Kaiden at least had the guts to fess up to being wrong. Ash won't.

How is it "just ignored" if Ashley trusts Shepard enough to work with him in ME3?

As far as your expectation that she apologize in-game in-person as opposed to simply saying "couldn't face you" (which is practically the same as Kaiden saying "I was wrong"), honestly, it just seems like a needlessly specific requirement, especially when the conversation prompts are written so Shepard can ask Kaiden to actually address Horizon in a much more substantial way.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 novembre 2013 - 02:42 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
...
3) And yet, Kaiden is willing to accept his mistakes and move on, rather then just try to ignore it. He accepts that you had justification for leaving him if you started a new relationship. He admits that he reacted badly on Horizon and that it was a mistake to not trust you. Ashley never once confronts the fact that she screwed up, making excuses. Kaiden ismature enough to be willing to take repsoncibility for his mistake, while Ashley can't swallow her pride and face up to what happened on Horizon.
...
[/quote]
Ashley apologies for her reaction on Horizon in the e-mail she sent.

[/quote]
Again, that's only if you romanced her. With Kaiden, you don't have to romance him to have him fess up to having overreacted on Horizon. That e-mail is invalid because it doesn't excuse how she acts if she isn't romanced. Kaiden apologizes and owns up to his mistakes regardless of if you romancd him or not. Ashley is solely dependant on if you romanced her.

Again, point to Kaiden in my book -- when he makes a mistake, he owns up to it.
[/quote]
Wait, she needs an "excuse" when unromanced? She's supposed to apologise for not trusting Shep when he's resurrected from the dead by a terrorist organization that they fought against in the previous game? That's just silly. Her reaction was perfectly reasonable, if not welcome. I'd only expect a apology if she was romanced. Otherwise its water under the bridge.
[/quote]
Kaiden did.  Ashley refused to admit that she might be even the slightest bit in the wrong -- she turned her heal on you when she was surrounded by proof that Shepard was right. But apperantly, looking back in hindsight at the colony full of dead Collectors and the husks they were using as shock troopers wasn't enough evidence to consider she overreacted and misjudged Shepard. I mean, it was for Kaiden.
Seriously, I'd think that when you turn your back on the person who saved your life, while surrounded by evidence that they're telling the truth, and call them a Traitor to their face, the logical thing to do is apologize. Not make up excuses. Kaiden did the mature thing -- he owned up to his mistakes. Ashley just couldn't swallow her pride and admit that she was wrong about Shepard.
[/quote]
The only evidence on Horizon is that Shep saved Ashley's and half the colonists' lives. That's not evidence that Shepard can be trusted. Besides, she was right. Cerberus leaked information to manipulate the Alliance into planting her or Kaiden out there to attract to Collectors to the colony so Shepard could further his investigation. Cerberus was partially responsible for the attack.

Also, could you be more specific on the "excuses" Ashley made? I'm pretty sure if she talking about it at all she just gave a reason why she acted as she did.

[/quote]
The evidence is that the Collectors had Husks with them, and of course there was the testimony from the colonists who Harbingr spoke to. It's even in the Codex that the survivors remember being spoken to by an entity that called itself "Harbinger."  The fact that Shepard saved the Colony, and the fact that Garrus, (and later on Tali), as well as multiple non-human races working with him despite Cerberus's xenophobic beliefs, should be more then proof enough for anyone that Shepard is on the level. And looking back at it on hindsight, Kaiden realizes that and admits it, saying he was wrong to not trust Shepard.
And being the Terminus colony with the highest population in the area, Horizon was always at risk anyway.
[/quote]
That is not evidence that Shepard or Cerberus can be trusted, or that Shepard is not being manipulated. It is evidence that they have a common enemy.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
...
Ashley attributed her beahvior to the Cerberus ties -- she never once states that she overreacted or that she made a mistake, and says she was perfectly justified in her beliefs. Kaiden does the opposite -- he admits that he knew Shepard better then that and overreacted from the shock of seeing Shepard with Cerberus two years after the Commander was supposedly killed.
[/quote]
Which conversation are you talking about? In the hospital, if Ashley was romanced I heard "I was angry" , but in that case she had sent the apologetic letter. Otherwise, the only thing I heard was something like, "Are you still with Cerberus?" to which the answer was "No" on Mars.
[/quote]
And the testimony of Garrus, and later on Tali and Liara, plus Anderson, doesn't account for anything? There was plenty of evidence that Shepard could be trusted -- it was all just ignored. And later on, Kaiden admits that he let his emotions get the better of him and apologizes for it. Ashley doesn't.

In the Hospital -- with a non-romanced Ash. And in all that, both romanced and non-romanced, it's the same -- she never admits that whe was at fault for it. Never admits to you in person that she went too far. Kaiden at least had the guts to fess up to being wrong. Ash won't.

[/quote]
How is it "just ignored" if Ashley trusts Shepard enough to work with him in ME3?

As far as your expectation that she apologize in-game in-person as opposed to simply saying "couldn't face you" (which is practically the same as Kaiden saying "I was wrong"), honestly, it just seems like a needlessly specific requirement, especially when the conversation prompts are written so Shepard can ask Kaiden to actually address Horizon in a much more substantial way.
[/quote]
Because at first she has no choice? There isn't much option to avoid working with Shepard for the Mars mission. and again, you're argueing a pointless statistic -- both choose to work with him/her after the Cerberus Coup, but only Kaiden makes it undeniably clear that he won't ever doubt Shepard anymore. Ash just signs on like it's entitled, Kaiden signs on like he feels he doesn't desrve it -- he's more humble then Ash is.

No, it is not the same -- It's still making up excuses. She couldn't come out and say she was wrong. And if it lead to a break-up, she will be more angry and less understanding then Kaiden would. Kaiden will acknowledge that if Shepard leaves him, he feels he deserved that after Horizon. Ash will act like she didn't even consider what happened on Horizon affecting their relationship. Why don't you try watching the two scenes back-to-back sometime? Kaiden comes of as more thoughtful then Ashley does - that's not "needlessly spicific," that a simple baseline comparison. And that's because Kaiden will acknowledge his faults and his failing at Horizon while Ashley will dance around the issue without ever directly confronting it.

[Obadiah]

@silverexile17s
It is needlessly specific. The two scenes back to back in the hospital clearly show that both VSes are contrite on the matter of the encounter on Horizon and their mistrust of Shepard want to move on. Kaiden, just wants to talk about it more. If that's something you "needed", *shrug*.

[Zan51]

Just read through all this thread and it seems to me that the main sticking point is those who think it is OK for Ash not to apologize properly for not knowing Shep better, or trusting him/her, and those who feel a direct apology is necessary.
Personally I side with the "You distrusted me, and you were proved wrong. Now you can't even apologize for it."

She is an unforgiving person, one I would not have at my back. Her lack of ability to own up to her mistakes is a huge flaw in a soldier who has her rank, or any rank actually!  Plus second guessing my orders lowers morale with the crew and my teams. I am not having that. Sorry, lady, even if I didn't like Kaidan better for all the many reasons, given, you are not staying on my ship! You are devisive and annoying, and set yourself as more important than the mission we are on and the morale of my crew, never mind me, my feelings.

Modifié par Zan51, 11 novembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[silverexile17s]

Zan51 wrote...

Just read through all this thread and it seems to me that the main sticking point is those who think it is OK for Ash not to apologize properly for not knowing Shep better, or trusting him/her, and those who feel a direct apology is necessary.
Personally I side with the "You distrusted me, and you were proved wrong. Now you can't even apologize for it."

She is an unforgiving person, one I would not have at my back. Her lack of ability to own up to her mistakes is a huge flaw in a soldier who has her rank, or any rank actually!  Plus second guessing my orders lowers morale with the crew and my teams. I am not having that. Sorry, lady, even if I didn't like Kaidan better for all the many reasons, given, you are not staying on my ship! You are devisive and annoying, and set yourself as more important than the mission we are on and the morale of my crew, never mind me, my feelings.

And that's my point -- sure Kaiden wasn't perfect, but he admitted to the fact that he had faults. He didn need to be your lover/ex-lover to admit he screwed up with his choice and words on Horizon. He was more malible and more passive then Ash, and when he knew he was wrong, he owned up to it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 12:53 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
It is needlessly specific. The two scenes back to back in the hospital clearly show that both VSes are contrite on the matter of the encounter on Horizon and their mistrust of Shepard want to move on. Kaiden, just wants to talk about it more. If that's something you "needed", *shrug*.

No, it isn't , because it's like that in EVERY set of words. In every single conversation, Ash is more harsh, more prideful, more stubborn, and more self-rightous then Kaiden. Ash distrusted you on Horizon and was proven wrong, and doesn't even admit any fault in her actions. Kaiden will apologize and admit that he owns what happened on Horizon as being his fault. He didin't trust you and he admits that he should have, whereas Ash refuses to ever admit that her distrust of you was even the slightest bit unjustified gievn Shepard's actions in saving Horizon (as well as having Garrus at his/her side).
And once again, wrong. The two scenes back to back in the hospital clearly show that Kaiden is apologetic vs Ash's stubborn pride. Kaiden says that he overreacted, where Ash refuses to admit she was in the wrong at Horizon. Kaiden will clear the air on it -- Ash will try to bury it and ignore it.
If trust and reliability isn't "something you "needed,"*shrug.*" :innocent:
But FYI, most people like having personal issues cleared and dealt with fully before they trust the fate of the entire galaxy on said person by having them watch your back. Unless you're comfortable with them having that baggage and that self-rightious attitude when the galaxy's at stake. "If that's something you "needed," *shrug.*"

Seriously, look at the two -- Kaiden wanting to resolve the issue, Ash wanting to ignore it happening. Between those two, Kaiden is the person who you want watching your back, wheras Ash is the one who's back you'd be watching.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[Made Nightwing]

Silverexile has returned. Circular arguments and overblown Shepard ego detected. Abandon thread.

abload.de/img/e90y91.gif

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I think Exile has alright arguments. If not really bad quote pyramids.

[eyezonlyii]

Could it be more the fact that Kaidan was written so as to initiate a Male shep romance during the game? he may come off a s more contrite and apologetic so as a way to get maleshep to forgive him, thus starting them on the road to reconciliation.

[thehomeworld]

No she's not she's opinionated, she's not PC, she's religous, and she's not toting the shep line. I can dislike her for the contrivance that was Horizon but that was also shep's fault in not being able to say an actual answer to her but a b*i*t*c*h she is not like Jacob she's a realistic person one of the few the series has and they need more Ashley's going forward.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 11 novembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

My opinion of Ashley involves a hypersonic bullet to her gut.

[David7204]

And people say Paragon playthroughs are 'power fantasies.'

[silverexile17s]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Silverexile has returned. Circular arguments and overblown Shepard ego detected. Abandon thread.

abload.de/img/e90y91.gif

Dude, you were the one that derailed the topic with some tangent about Cerberus and how Shepard made it a threat - you know, dispite the fact that they got that way already.

And it never once refuted the point -- Ash was always too subborn to admit when she was wrong. Compare their hospital scenes together and the difference is clear: You see Kaidan is much more willing to talk it out and clear the air, and admits that he let his emotions get the better of him on Horizon. Ash doesn't even try to do so, and simply tries to ignore what happened on Horizon.

And with comments like that, I think you must be talking to your own reflection, considering I refrenced events from the game. You haven't.

[silverexile17s]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I think Exile has alright arguments. If not really bad quote pyramids.

Yeah -- I'm not the best with editing quote-pyramids.

[silverexile17s]

eyezonlyii wrote...

Could it be more the fact that Kaidan was written so as to initiate a Male shep romance during the game? he may come off a s more contrite and apologetic so as a way to get maleshep to forgive him, thus starting them on the road to reconciliation.

I think it's just because Kaidan has an overall more malible personalaty then Ash -- he's just a more humble person then she is.

[silverexile17s]

thehomeworld wrote...

No she's not she's opinionated, she's not PC, she's religous, and she's not toting the shep line. I can dislike her for the contrivance that was Horizon but that was also shep's fault in not being able to say an actual answer to her but a b*i*t*c*h she is not like Jacob she's a realistic person one of the few the series has and they need more Ashley's going forward.

Ash takes it too far though. She's pretty self-rightious when it comes to her loyalty to the Alliance. Kaidan was at least able to, upon relfection, admit that he was wrong in not trusting Shepard on Horizon. Ash doesn't even give any form of apology to Shepard over having been wrong -- unlike Kaidan, who owns the fact that he was wrong and apologizes for it. He makes it clear that he's never going to doubt Shepard again. Ash.... she'd rather bury it, instead of talk it out and resolve it.
Also, her mentality is why the galaxy is the way it is in ME3. Her "Bear and the Dog" mentality -- she failes to realize that it's the same for every other race. They feel the exact same way, and don't trust one-another, so they'd stab them in the back first to prevent it happening to them first. People like her are why the galaxy hesitates to unite to fight the Reapers -- so if anything, they need less Ashley's going forward.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

And people say Paragon playthroughs are 'power fantasies.'

They are for the self-righteous.

[Seboist]

David7204 wrote...

And people say Paragon playthroughs are 'power fantasies.'

They're pretty juvenile too.