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[Made Nightwing]

silverexile17s wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Silverexile has returned. Circular arguments and overblown Shepard ego detected. Abandon thread.

abload.de/img/e90y91.gif

Dude, you were the one that derailed the topic with some tangent about Cerberus and how Shepard made it a threat - you know, dispite the fact that they got that way already.

And it never once refuted the point -- Ash was always too subborn to admit when she was wrong. Compare their hospital scenes together and the difference is clear: You see Kaidan is much more willing to talk it out and clear the air, and admits that he let his emotions get the better of him on Horizon. Ash doesn't even try to do so, and simply tries to ignore what happened on Horizon.

And with comments like that, I think you must be talking to your own reflection, considering I refrenced events from the game. You haven't.

And you've yet to prove she didn't have a point. This is the problem when you force your interpretation of the game onto everyone.  The only canon points of the game are those that have little or nothing to do with Shepard and the main characters. You're pushing your interpretation of Shepard, a delicate wilting flower who needs everyone to bow down and kiss his feet. Prove that that's the canon Shepard.

Now for everyone who has a Shepard with a little more self-confidence and a little less egomania, Ashley's actions can be interpreted in an entirely different way. For my Shepard, there's no real need for Ashley to apologise for being suspicious of him about Cerberus, as he was nursing those doubts all along as well. Prove that it is 110% against the canon for my Shepard to feel that way (reference the conversation on the Cerberus Base about Shepard's own humanity).

Lastly, I have cited the books, games and comics, the source material that shows Cerberus got the majority of their Reaper tech from beyond the Omega-4 relay. Let's think about the logic of this, for a second. Before the Collector Base, they could combine Reaper algorithms with an already evolving VI to create one single AI. They could salvage a bit of nano-technology from the battle on the Citadel, and apply it to Project Lazarus (to what extent we do not know).

After the Suicide Mission, they could create massive conversion facilities like those on Omega and Horizon. They could implant thousands of troops (by the way, ME2 EDI states that Cerberus is only a small organisation, so they really did kidnap/recruit and implant thousands of troops between and during the games) upgrade their ships, weapons and armour to be beyond anything even the mother****ing salarian STG can match. More to the point. they get the Reaper carcass from beyond Omega four, only slightly less intact if you destroy the base. The Illusive Man point blank states in the book that they got their tech from the ruins of the Collector operation. Not from a few corpses on Horizon, not from salvaged pieces of Sovereign, from the ruins of the collector operation. Sheesh, can you not accept textual evidence now?

The books, games and comics show that Cerberus is alive and well after losing EDI and the SR-2, that the organisation is far too big to fall from that one act alone. So no, I have cited plenty of evidence from the games. You, on the other hand keep citing one conversation that is entirely subjective based on how your Shepard feels about Cerberus and blunt opinions. For some people 'you cut all ties, I accept that', is all you need. Prove how that is somehow against the canon.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:35 .

[IllusiveManJr]

Kind of.

[Obadiah]

David7204 wrote...

And people say Paragon playthroughs are 'power fantasies.'

The whole trilogy is a power fantasy.

[silverexile17s]

Made Nightwing wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Silverexile has returned. Circular arguments and overblown Shepard ego detected. Abandon thread.

abload.de/img/e90y91.gif

Dude, you were the one that derailed the topic with some tangent about Cerberus and how Shepard made it a threat - you know, dispite the fact that they got that way already.

And it never once refuted the point -- Ash was always too subborn to admit when she was wrong. Compare their hospital scenes together and the difference is clear: You see Kaidan is much more willing to talk it out and clear the air, and admits that he let his emotions get the better of him on Horizon. Ash doesn't even try to do so, and simply tries to ignore what happened on Horizon.

And with comments like that, I think you must be talking to your own reflection, considering I refrenced events from the game. You haven't.

And you've yet to prove she didn't have a point. This is the problem when you force your interpretation of the game onto everyone.  The only canon points of the game are those that have little or nothing to do with Shepard and the main characters. You're pushing your interpretation of Shepard, a delicate wilting flower who needs everyone to bow down and kiss his feet. Prove that that's the canon Shepard.

Now for everyone who has a Shepard with a little more self-confidence and a little less egomania, Ashley's actions can be interpreted in an entirely different way. For my Shepard, there's no real need for Ashley to apologise for being suspicious of him about Cerberus, as he was nursing those doubts all along as well. Prove that it is 110% against the canon for my Shepard to feel that way (reference the conversation on the Cerberus Base about Shepard's own humanity).

Lastly, I have cited the books, games and comics, the source material that shows Cerberus got the majority of their Reaper tech from beyond the Omega-4 relay. Let's think about the logic of this, for a second. Before the Collector Base, they could combine Reaper algorithms with an already evolving VI to create one single AI. They could salvage a bit of nano-technology from the battle on the Citadel, and apply it to Project Lazarus (to what extent we do not know).

After the Suicide Mission, they could create massive conversion facilities like those on Omega and Horizon. They could implant thousands of troops (by the way, ME2 EDI states that Cerberus is only a small organisation, so they really did kidnap/recruit and implant thousands of troops between and during the games) upgrade their ships, weapons and armour to be beyond anything even the mother****ing salarian STG can match. More to the point. they get the Reaper carcass from beyond Omega four, only slightly less intact if you destroy the base. The Illusive Man point blank states in the book that they got their tech from the ruins of the Collector operation. Not from a few corpses on Horizon, not from salvaged pieces of Sovereign, from the ruins of the collector operation. Sheesh, can you not accept textual evidence now?

The books, games and comics show that Cerberus is alive and well after losing EDI and the SR-2, that the organisation is far too big to fall from that one act alone. So no, I have cited plenty of evidence from the games. You, on the other hand keep citing one conversation that is entirely subjective based on how your Shepard feels about Cerberus and blunt opinions. For some people 'you cut all ties, I accept that', is all you need. Prove how that is somehow against the canon.

Says the person that derailed the topic with a Cerberus tangent? And the person who ignores the fact that Kaidan actually clears the air compared to Ash just ignoring it?:pinched:
Seriously, talk about the pot calling the kettle black here -- you haven't proved a single thing. Just comparing the two scenes together shows that (A) Kaidan has a more mellow personality, ( he is more forgiving of others, © he is willing to talk things out rather then bury the issue and ignore it, and (D) is willing to admit when he's wrong. Another case in point is how he will speak with you more often about Cerberus and try to understand them - like after rescuing the Cerberus Scientists (and Jacob if he survuved ME2), Kaiden takes you aside to discuss how he feels conflicted about Cerberus, fearing that there are good people inside the orginization trying to get out.
Compared to that, Ash never changes -- she never shows any reflection on weather or not her pre-judgements were wrong or not. She never even tries to face her past mistakes, opting to just ignore them rather then resolve them. 
Somehow, you seem to have completely and utterly misinterperted the entire point of the discussion. This is about who is willing to admit their mistakes -- which one of them has the guts to face up to their past. That is completely regardless of how Shepard is played.
Ergo - Shepard was never the topic to begin with. How the hell did you get hung up on Shepard when the topic is about how Ashley never truly resolved the conflict on Horizon -- you know, like Kaidan did when he cleared the air in the Hospital? This is about who is the bigger person between the two -- about which one is able to admit they were wrong about Shepard. Kaidan admits this -- Ashely ignores it. How is that in any related to Shepard being a "delecate wiltining flower" when this is all non-reliant on Shepard's menatlity?

Now, for anyone that realizes that Shepard's mentality/morality doesn't have anything to do with this debate, they see that Ashely is generally too inflexible a person -- she's self-rightous, a hard-liner, and refuses to acknowledge that she's made mistakes because of a pride that won't allow her to be wrong for fear of shaming her blacklisted family name. She admits in ME1 that her distain for turians is largely because of how her grandfather was disgraced for surrendering to them - Something Shepard calls her out on by pointing out that the Alliance were the ones that scapegoated him. Her uncomprimising views make her untrusting of aliens, and hard to work with in terms of cooperating with other races -- she's unwilling to forgive and forget in most cases, even with the Reapers around. She opted for the Rachni to be killed, calling it "a mistake" to let them loose. She's outright against the idea of peace with the geth, saying it "won't last." She tends to question your morality by letting Wrex and Garrus on the Normandy SR-1 and by working with them.
As for Horizon - dead wrong. Shepard fought through Collectors, Husks, Scions, and saved the remaining half the colony. Not to mention that Shepard's squad consisted of aliens, including Garrus - you know, something that no real Cerberus operative would do? Shepard will say it best - "I'm not working for Cerberus, they're working for me." Later on, their is Tali and Liara who both trust you instantly. As does Wrex, though he can't leave because of his duties as Urdnot clan leader. Everyone accepted that Shepard wouldn't do this unless there was no choice -- after aiding in stealing the Normandy from the Citadel, Kaidan & Ashley should have realized that too. And looking back, Kaidan does realize it and owns up to having been wrong. Ashley never does. She just opts to ignore it and pretend it never happened. [/u]Tali, Garrus, Liara, Joker, Chakwas, hell even Anderson and Hackett acknowledge that Shepard wouldn't do this without it being for the right reasons. And later on, Kaidan does too. Ashley on the other hand, never does. This is true regardless of whatever kind of Shepard you have.

Lastly - No you haven't. Not accurately at least. You claim Cerberus got all their Reaper implantation tech from the Collector Base... even though the Chasca colonists in ME1 were mutated into husks by Cerberus using an airborne nanite virus that was made from Reaper implantation tech - and a fairly heavily modified version of it, since Reaper nanites aren't typically airborne. They also created EDI from the few surviving pieces of Sovergein's insides - which was Reaper-tech. They had an entire Derilect Reaper to research, which likely sent shipments back to them for sutdy before losing contact. Shepard even refrences this in ME2 during a conversation with Miranda, noting that they were trying to use Husks to make an army of disposible Shock-troopers, alongside the Thorian Creepers and the Rachni. Face facts -- Cerberus had plenty of Reaper tech before ME2. Albeit, recycled Reaper tech that was mostly pulled from dead husks. What they got from the Collector Base was a majority of uncontaminated Reaper tech -- as in Reaper tech that they didn't have to gut a Husk post-mortum to get. And to clarify, they didn't create EDI by design -- they fused the Reaper tech into a V.I. and crossed their fingers. EDI's development was a random occourance - just like any lifeform coming into existance. And Project Lazarus didn't use any actual Reaper tech, but rather opted to study it and then mimic it -- just like how the Thanix is based off Reaper tech without actually being made from Reaper tech.

They were already working on taking Omega long before you finished the Suicide Mission, building relations -- your time helping Aria, remember? And they didn't need Omega to create those conversion facilities -- they could do it independantly on Cronos Station. Omega was solely so they could have access to Omega-4 and nothing else, (and again wrong, since she stated that Cerberus had 150 senior staff members - AKA Operatives and project leaders, like Miranda and Jacob. But not a full count of all their members galaxy-wide. The core senior staff of agents is small, but again, that is not representitive of all Cerberus members as a whole. You'd be surprised how many people willingly joined the group. There was even a whole PMC that was a Cerberus front). They had upgrades to their ships already, since they relied on having better equipment to make up for their distinct lack of numbers in the galaxy compared to the other militaries. And FYI, they got the drop on the Salarians with Stealth Drive tech - you know, something all Kodiak-Class troop shuttles have by ME3? Cerberus, as always, used hit-and-run tactics to make up for the fact that they can't compare to anyone in a real fight. And as the Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer proves, your assertation that they "can't match" Cerberus is dead wrong. And once again, the events of ME1 and ME2 show that they had access to just as much Reaper-tech as they did from the Collector base. The only difference was that the later stuff didn't have to be ripped from a dead carcass. Grayson was altered with nanites just like every other husk was. The tech was the same, only difference was that it was fresh tech instead of scavenged tech. The majority of their Reaper tech was pre-Suicide Mission. What came from the Collector Base was the majority of their un-scavanged Reaper tech - which in itself was a minority of their store of Reaper tech/
"Sheesh," can't you accept in-game cutscenes, statements, and events now?

The books, games, and comics show that is Cerberus state regardless of ME2, implying that Shepard wasn't the source of their rise in strength either. That nothing Shepard did was connected to their rise to power.  And once again, you are dead wrong -- the logs in Cronos Station show the Illusive Man is livid at losing the SR-2. EDI and Miranda say that the ship and Shepard's ressurection cost Cerberus most of their resources to acomplish -- to the point where Miranda says Shepard is indisposible to TIM. They counted on having the Collector's "homeworld" to recoop the finantial losses -- however, that fell through since the tech there was (A) bonded to organics, meaning the radiation wave used to capture the base would ruin most of it, or ( the base was destroyed, leaving most of it roasted and gone. Either way, Cerberus lost most of what they thought they would have. And again, dead wrong -- EDI and Dr. Chakwas both confirm that the loss of "their best ship and their best people" crippled them. Cerberus maintained the captured Omega because they lacked the financial infrastrcure to stand without it. They're indipendant development projects took a stark downturn after ME2 - no more massive projects like Lazarus or Overlord or Firewalker anymore. It became almost solely military build-up and indoctrination research, because they couldn't afford anything else. I have also stated what I've seen in the games, books and comics, and they invalidate your claims. So, No -- you have mininterperted plenty of evidence from the games. And in doing so, derail the topic with this debate on Cerberus. As of now, please try to keep your speculations on Cerberus and Shepard to the fourms that are about those.  -- this page is about one single subject : weather or not Ashley is trustworthy over Kaidan, and why she shouldn't ignore the mistakes she made on Horizon. Everything I've used is events and/or conversations that happen regardless of Shepard's allingment or mindset. "For some people," ignoring being called a traitor who "turned your back on everything we stood for" and not even trying to clear the air or resolve it is the trademark of a b*tch. Accepting that you cut ties isn't an apology for not trusting you and turning their back on you when you needed them the most. Last I checked, abandoning the person that you owe your life to, and being [u]wrong about your reasons for it, is something most people with any sort of deceacy or humility would apologize for. Kaidan accepted that he was wrong and apologized for abandoning you on Horizon. Ashley refused to acknowledge that she was wrong about trusting you. Kaidan did everything he could to air out any potential lingering animosity. Ashley deicdes to just ignore it and not even accept responcibility for it.

Those are the simple facts. And for a person that was yelling "abandon threat," you're pretty dogged in defending your opinion about Ashley's "justification" being valid, in the face of evidence to the conrtary.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[Obadiah]

@silverexile17s
No, as Made Nightwing said, with respect to Ashley this is all just your interpretation. I'll also add:
- Not specifically addressing an uncomfortable issue is not the same as ignoring or burying it
- An explicit apology does not make someone trustworthy or reliable
- Ashley is trustworthy and reliable because she tells the truth, doesn't lie, and is a competent soldier.

Modifié par Obadiah, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[SwobyJ]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

It's BSN double standards at work, true.

Wrex doesn't trust turians? That's okay, he's a bro!
Ashley is suspicious of turians? She must be a horrible racist!

Javik wants to kill all synthetics and throw Legion out the airlock? Hilarious!
Gerrel wants to do the same thing? Punch that racist asshole!

ME2 Mordin makes no apologies for the genophage? That's all right, he's cool!
Dalatrass doesn't want you to cure it? What a heartless bitch!

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the writers themselves create these situations and have their laughs over how it works on on forums.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

silverexile17s

You have kind of a generous interpretation of Kaidan's behaviour, and I don't think it serves your argument well. Kaidan's apology for Horizon was in not giving Shepard a chance to explain, not for distrusting his ties to Cerberus. He even states outright in Huerta that while he's not sure he's wrong about Cerberus, he acknowledges being wrong about Shepard. This is only after Mars, and after Shep's had a chance to disavow Cerberus. But ultimately that assurance is all words; he won't back down if Shepard hasn't given him reason to trust.

Yes, he hedges, and he's more apologetic. In light of some of his dialogue from ME1, though, I wouldn't call it being malleable. He can be convinced, but it's going to take some doing. He's a career marine, more experienced and politically savvy than Ashley, and careful enough to always leave an out.

Not saying he doesn't own up to mistakes, but I don't think they're the mistakes you think he's owning up to.

Ashley is more brash, more aggressive, and more blatantly argumentative. A lot of that is entirely believable in a younger, less politically astute/concerned, and generally blunter soldier. The VS's are nice contrasts to one another. But it doesn't make Ashley a b!tch, though I can understand why some people find her unlikable. Maybe if her writer had turned it up to eleven like Jack, she'd have found a larger fanbase.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Ryzaki]

SwobyJ wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

It's BSN double standards at work, true.

Wrex doesn't trust turians? That's okay, he's a bro!
Ashley is suspicious of turians? She must be a horrible racist!

Javik wants to kill all synthetics and throw Legion out the airlock? Hilarious!
Gerrel wants to do the same thing? Punch that racist asshole!

ME2 Mordin makes no apologies for the genophage? That's all right, he's cool!
Dalatrass doesn't want you to cure it? What a heartless bitch!

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the writers themselves create these situations and have their laughs over how it works on on forums.

I give Javik a pass because he has a completely understandable reason to hate synthetics. They destroyed his homeworld, his people because Reapers, he fought and was born and raised in a Reaper War. Also Javik hates pretty much everyone equally so yeah it's a lot more tolerable than Gerrel's "I'm going to wait for the Reapers to attack then lol let's attack the Geth because we don't have enough enemies! Diplomacy? What is that madness?" (Also Javik is actually funny where's Gerrel doesn't have a decent funny quip). 

Also ME2 Mordin is clearly regretful of it. He's not a self righteous **** about it like the Dalatrass is. I agree that the genophage should've remained but the dalatress lacked tact and diplomacy in that war room.

I miss being able to play a racist renedouche Shep though. Heck I miss my renedouche. In ME3 he's acting like my renegon on steroids for some reason being uber nice to pretty much all main charactersd a complete **** to everyone that's not a main character. I miss when he was a **** to everyone.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
No, as Made Nightwing said, with respect to Ashley this is all just your interpretation. I'll also add:
- Not specifically addressing an uncomfortable issue is not the same as ignoring or burying it
- An explicit apology does not make someone trustworthy or reliable
- Ashley is trustworthy and reliable because she tells the truth, doesn't lie, and is a competent soldier.

No, with all due respect, it is not.
- Refusing to acknowledg one's failures or potential trust issues like that isn't acceptible when the entire galaxy depends on this person watching your back. You need to know there's no issues -- and Kaidan does that. Ashley doesn't -- she would rather ignore the issue rather then confront the hard fact that she was wrong.
- An explisit apology does when said person is someone that you are supposed to depend on to watch your back while you are trying to save the entire galaxy. It shows that they aren't going to doubt your choices anymore. It shows that they accept that they were wrong about what they said/did before and have come to terms with that fact. Kaidan does this, maturely and responcibly. Ashley ignores the problem completely. The most base comparison is two kids stealing from the cookie jar -- one confesses and accepts responciility while the other refuses to admit she took the wrong action. Which of the two are you more likely to trust in the future? (This is about as simplistic a comparison as I can break it down to.)
- No, she isn't -- she hardly ever speaks to you unless you are her romantic interest, and never acknowledges the faults of her past actions. Hell, even now she's still questioning your choices -- if you brought peace beween the quarians and geth, she disapproves by saying it won't last - the only other person besides Javik that doubts your actions in making the Allied Forces stronger. She also doesn't apperantly hold any of the self-reflection Kaidan has about how there could be good people, like Dr. Bryn's team, trapped inside Cerberus trying to escape. Kaiden all in all is a person you'd trust with watching your back. Ashley is a person who's back you'd be watching for her. And last I chekced, "compatent" didn't translate into "wipe out synthetic race that could be valuible allies." She's as compitent as James -- just give her a big gun and let her shoot stuff. A good fighter, but not a good soldier.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:54 .

[silverexile17s]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

silverexile17s

You have kind of a generous interpretation of Kaidan's behaviour, and I don't think it serves your argument well. Kaidan's apology for Horizon was in not giving Shepard a chance to explain, not for distrusting his ties to Cerberus. He even states outright in Huerta that while he's not sure he's wrong about Cerberus, he acknowledges being wrong about Shepard. This is only after Mars, and after Shep's had a chance to disavow Cerberus. But ultimately that assurance is all words; he won't back down if Shepard hasn't given him reason to trust.

Yes, he hedges, and he's more apologetic. In light of some of his dialogue from ME1, though, I wouldn't call it being malleable. He can be convinced, but it's going to take some doing. He's a career marine, more experienced and politically savvy than Ashley, and careful enough to always leave an out.

Not saying he doesn't own up to mistakes, but I don't think they're the mistakes you think he's owning up to.

Ashley is more brash, more aggressive, and more blatantly argumentative. A lot of that is entirely believable in a younger, less politically astute/concerned, and generally blunter soldier. The VS's are nice contrasts to one another. But it doesn't make Ashley a b!tch, though I can understand why some people find her unlikable. Maybe if her writer had turned it up to eleven like Jack, she'd have found a larger fanbase.

Dude... all you did was validate every single thing I said.
I'm basing this on how Kaidan himself admits to his mistakes in ME3. He admits that he should have lietened and should have trusted Shepard -- he didn't. He owns that and accepts that he was wrong. More then can be said for Ashley.  And the fact that he says he was wrong about Shepard is the entire point that I was making -- he admits that he should have trusted that Shepard had good reasons for it. How is it that people keep misinterperting this -- if it isn't @Made Nightwing misinterperting this as being based on Shepard's persona, it's people thinking this is about trusting Cerberus. It's not -- it's about trusting Shepard. And Kaidan admits that he should have trusted Shepard.
And in those situations you talk about, he's nowhere near as bitter or vindictive as Ashley is about it. And he's much more open about clearing the air and resolving any negative feelings leftover from Horizon - again, more then Ashley says or does.

But he's open and honest with himself. He's not as self-rightious as Ashley -- when he effes up, he admits to it. He did so with Rahna and how he overdid it when he killed Vyrrnus on Gagarin Station. And he does so with Shepard after Horizon. Both times, he let his emotions get the better of him, and both times, he admitted to being at fault for them and for the damage to his respective friendships after reflecting on the events. He's more empathetic then Ashley, more open then she is. He's more willing to try and repair and air out grudges rather then bury them away like Ashley.

I think you need to review the games if that's what you believe.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:05 .

[JasonShepard]

@silverexile17s: I agree with Obadiah and Made Nightwing.

"Well done getting those two groups to work together. I wonder how long the peace will last." does not translate to "It certainly won't last" and definitely doesn't mean "You should have killed all the Geth."

Also, my Shepard is second-guessing himself all the time. He doesn't mind someone else doing it, so long as they continue to follow orders at the same time as thinking for themselves.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:13 .

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
Dude... all you did was validate every single thing I said.
I'm basing this on how Kaidan himself admits to his mistakes in ME3. He admits that he should have lietened and should have trusted Shepard -- he didn't. He owns that and accepts that he was wrong. More then can be said for Ashley.  And the fact that he says he was wrong about Shepard is the entire point that I was making -- he admits that he should have trusted that Shepard had good reasons for it.

I don't know if "TIM told me to" is such a good reason. Ultimately Kaidan may have been wrong but that wasn't a given unless you're judging in hindsight or from beyond the 4th wall.

Horizon is pretty horrible writing but it fits nicely with most of the other crap from ME2 concerning Shepard and Cerbederp.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:34 .

[Star fury]

I'm disappointed that lots of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

Modifié par Star fury, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Obadiah]

@silverexile17s

- Like I said, Ashley refusing to acknowledge her failures is strictly your interpretation of the hospital scene.

- You need someone to not doubt your choices to deem them trustworthy and reliable? Let me just say that's not really a healthy expectation to have of people. My expectation of Ashley was to follow orders, and give honest feedback when asked, whether it second guessed Shepard's decisions or not.

- Ashley speaks to Shepard plenty if he talked to her, romanced or not. But even if she didn't, not speaking a lot would not make someone untrustworthy or unreliable. It just makes them quiet.

- Since the Alliance promoted her before ME3, they (the fictional authority on the "good solider" matter) obviously believe she is a good solider, and makes your assertion somewhat questionable.

Modifié par Obadiah, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:11 .

[Iakus]

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

[jtav]

Ashley is racist/speciest. So are Mordin, Tali, Wrex, and Jacob. It's a soft racism, but it's there. It's also not a disqualifying flaw.

[RatThing]

iakus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

so much this!

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

Ashley is racist/speciest. So are Mordin, Tali, Wrex, and Jacob. It's a soft racism, but it's there. It's also not a disqualifying flaw.

She's more of a cynical nationallist.  She's not suspicious of aliens because they are aliens, but because the goals and agendas of thier people may not align with those of the Alliance.  She believes that in the end, people, both human and alien, will look out for themselves first.  Altruism is not a survival trait.  

And of course, she is proven right in ME3.

But even in this she doesn't hate aliens.  She doesn't think humans are superior (in fact, she statees that outright in ME1) she sees it as a fact of life.  It's purely pragmatism that humanity needs to be ready to stand alone if necessary.  You can't count on allies staying allies.  Heck, if there were other major human governments around; if some breakaway colonies formed a government to rival the Alliance, she'd put them right alongside teh turians and krogan to be suspicious of.  Because in the end, their goals may not align with tthose of her own people.

[jtav]

"At least she looks like a woman." Similar to Jacob calling Garrus a cuttlebone.

[Barquiel]

Ashley was one of the better written squadmates in ME1 (probably even the best), but I was never very fond of her. I stongly disagree on her view of aliens (sorry, but calling them bug-eyed monsters has nothing to do with "realism")...and when everyone from Hackett and Anderson to the council had more faith in Shepard than her old teammate, there's something wrong with the picture. There's wary and there's paranoid.

Modifié par Barquiel, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:23 .

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

"At least she looks like a woman." Similar to Jacob calling Garrus a cuttlebone.

Hyperbole spouted in a moment of jealousy, both of them.

People use worse terms about other humans in RL situations

[P. Domi]

@ silveexile, Have you seen Ashley in a full playthrough on Cronos station? I will provide a link, in case you have some spare time.

For the record, Made Nightwing brought Cerberus into the discussion because there's a good reason Ashley Williams would not join Shepard in ME2. He didn't derail the post, he expressed a fact. I supported some of his assertions with excerpts from the novel "Retribution" (and I assumed you had read it too).

Ash didn't oppose fighting the Collectors, Ash disapproved the business partners Shepard had associated with in ME 2. If Ashley had joined Shepard in ME 2 she would have had to defect and break her oath to the Alliance to join an extremist group, just because Shepard asked her to? I, for one, like the fact that some characters are in the military and sometimes, they act like it. It makes the story believable (which is different from realistic). There's a variety of characters, they have their own agendas, that's why some of them join you in ME2 and some can't or prefer not to.

If you go to talk to Anderson again anytime after Horizon, he says Williams or Alenko confirmed your version of the facts and the implication of the Collectors involvement. Anderson also states he doesn't trust Cerberus and neither should you. Shepard can even ask him to join him in his quest, and he says "no".

Cronos Station: 

Skip to 5:10: url

If you take Ash to Cronos Station, During the last segment, when the squad finds the remains of the human reaper larva, Ash says she wish she had been there (admitting that, with time, she came to understand the full scope of what Shepard was doing in ME 2).

And if there had been some more player agency in the beginning of ME 2, not everybody would have sided with them after getting on the Normandy SR-2.

Again, I don't know if anything Ashley says or does will ever be redeeming enough for you, silverexile, you have already made your mind, a long time ago. You have your own arguments and I'm not going to try to convince you. I doubt we would convince each other of anything at this point.

You may be looking for a very different kind of apologetic behaviour. I understood why she distrusted Shepard and the people he/she was working thing. ME3 just proved her right. The fact is, as a player, I also distrusted the missions TIM gave Shepard in my first playthrough, there always seemed to be a side to his gameplan he was not willing to reveal, a plan that cost the lives of many of his own people. I posted my opinion on Ashley's views on space relations and aliens on the first page of this thread, if you want to check it out. I think I'm done in this thread, Cheers.

Modifié par pablodomi, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:47 .

[EQU0LIZER]

well.. i like aschley more than Liara, because she like tali in ME1 and ME3. I like everybody who likes Tali.....or Quarians.

[Ryzaki]

...People STILL haven't learned how to trim their ****ing quotes? Goddamn.

JasonShepard wrote...

@silverexile17s: I agree with Obadiah and Made Nightwing.

"Well
done getting those two groups to work together. I wonder how long the
peace will last." does not translate to "It certainly won't last" and
definitely doesn't mean "You should have killed all the Geth."

Also,
my Shepard is second-guessing himself all the time. He doesn't mind
someone else doing it, so long as they continue to follow orders at the same time as thinking for themselves.[

Ugh the bolded is EXACTLY why my Shep would've kicked her off his ship at the beginning of ME1. My Shep can't be dealing with someone constantly second quessing him when the galaxy itself is at stake. Especially not for such marginal petty reasons.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[silverexile17s]

JasonShepard wrote...

@silverexile17s: I agree with Obadiah and Made Nightwing.

"Well done getting those two groups to work together. I wonder how long the peace will last." does not translate to "It certainly won't last" and definitely doesn't mean "You should have killed all the Geth."

Also, my Shepard is second-guessing himself all the time. He doesn't mind someone else doing it, so long as they continue to follow orders at the same time as thinking for themselves.

And that doesn't entail scepticisim in your choices? Play the option where the geth die and hear her then -- she's much more approving of the genocide of the geth then she is the peace treaty. You'll have a different opinion about her wanting to kill all the geth.
It in essesce does translate to beliving the peace "certianly won't last." IDK if you notice that she says "I wonder how long the peace will last," as if it's a given in her opinion that it won't last.
Also, you are confused, since this is about what happens regardless of your Shepard's profile - it doesn't matter if your Shep is doubtful or assured, it doesn't affect Kaidan or Ashley's behavior at all. Kaidan will still be repentant, Ashley will still be stubborn. Kaidan will admit that he was wrong to not trust Shepard having reasons for his/her actions, wheras Ashlwy won't even try to face her mistakes.