1121 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Dude... all you did was validate every single thing I said.
I'm basing this on how Kaidan himself admits to his mistakes in ME3. He admits that he should have lietened and should have trusted Shepard -- he didn't. He owns that and accepts that he was wrong. More then can be said for Ashley.  And the fact that he says he was wrong about Shepard is the entire point that I was making -- he admits that he should have trusted that Shepard had good reasons for it.

I don't know if "TIM told me to" is such a good reason. Ultimately Kaidan may have been wrong but that wasn't a given unless you're judging in hindsight or from beyond the 4th wall.

Horizon is pretty horrible writing but it fits nicely with most of the other crap from ME2 concerning Shepard and Cerbederp.

Kaidan still acknowlegded that he was wromg to mistrust Shepard -- that he should have known that Shepard had reasons to do what he/she did. Ashley doesn't even try to resolve it.

[silverexile17s]

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

I'm dissappointed that you think Ash's views on alians had anything to do with this when it doesn't. It's about her being too inflexible with her personal views to admit when she's wrong. That's regardless of how she feels about aliens. And BTW, the fact that she distrusts turians because of how the Alliance scapegoated her grandfather doesn't entail "biased" to you?

If you think that, you didn't play ME1. She's stubborn, brash, and more then a bit reckless. She has a very "black and white" view of life. And her "bear and the dog" analogy, she fails to realize applies to everyone -- ideals like hers are why no one trusts each-other in the galaxy. They're all afraid of being backstabbed, so they do it first. And again, as pointed out by the guards in the CIC, that's a hypocricy to blame the Council for not helping Earth, because if they were attacked and Earth wasn't, the Alliance would have done the same thing -- refused to help for fear of weakening their defense of Earth. She fails to realize that her assessment applies to the Alliance being dicks as well. And once again, only if you order her, not because she wants to or agrees with it -- you need someone that's not going to second-guess orders in a crisis.

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s

- Like I said, Ashley refusing to acknowledge her failures is strictly your interpretation of the hospital scene.

- You need someone to not doubt your choices to deem them trustworthy and reliable? Let me just say that's not really a healthy expectation to have of people. My expectation of Ashley was to follow orders, and give honest feedback when asked, whether it second guessed Shepard's decisions or not.

- Ashley speaks to Shepard plenty if he talked to her, romanced or not. But even if she didn't, not speaking a lot would not make someone untrustworthy or unreliable. It just makes them quiet.

- Since the Alliance promoted her before ME3, they (the fictional authority on the "good solider" matter) obviously believe she is a good solider, and makes your assertion somewhat questionable.

-Wrong. That's you refusing to acknowledge that she would rather ignore what happened there instead of clear the air. I mean, You yourself said in this very fourm that Kaidan talked it out more then Ash. He was more willing to resolve what happened on Horizon as opposed to burying it. How can it be my interpertation when you were the one to point out that Kaidan spoke more oepnly then Ash?

- When the fate of the entire galaxy in on your back, YES. Look at the galaxy -- you want to face something like the Reapers with someone you're unsure of? You think trust and confidnece in your squadmates is "unhealthy"? How the hell does that make any sense? "Following orders" makes them nothing but a mindless drone -- you need soldiers to win a war, not followers. Hackett himself says that a good leader is defined by the people that trust him/her to lead them to hell and back. You can order a soldier to take a hill, but you can't order him to believe. Having unresolved doubts and garbage like that isn't needed in a galactic war.

- You think that, you need to replay ME3 -- she doesn't speak with you nearly as often as Kaidan does. Kaidan is more passive, more open to consider all options then Ashley. He isn't as narrowly "black and white" as she is. He's the kind of person you'd see being an XO over Ashley.

[silverexile17s]

RatThing wrote...

iakus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I'm disappointed that a lot of ME fans are dumb to understand one thing - Ash is not a racist. Ashley is also has a history with aliens, especially turians. Her grandfather surrendered to them and that tarnished her family's reputation.

She is only cautious and quite reasonable, and seeing how things went in ME3, she was right in her Council assessment - Asari and Salarians didn't help when Earth was attacked. I remember her answer to Shepard - "You ask me to kiss a turian, I'll say 'which cheek".

Ashley's writer was very frustrated with the fans' reaction towards her "racism".

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

so much this!

So much not this, because those things have absolutly nothing to do with why they dislike Ash. It has to do with the fact that after everything that happened, she's too inflexible a person to admit that she was wrong about Shepard. Kaidan will acknowledge that he was wrong about Shepard. She won't. Her views are inflexible in general -- that;s regardless of her racial views,  or her views on squadmates.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

Ashley was one of the better written squadmates in ME1 (probably even the best), but I was never very fond of her. I stongly disagree on her view of aliens (sorry, but calling them bug-eyed monsters has nothing to do with "realism")...and when everyone from Hackett and Anderson to the council had more faith in Shepard than her old teammate, there's something wrong with the picture. There's wary and there's paranoid.

What do you know? We agree on something for once!

[RZIBARA]

the geth are goddamn machines, what damn genocide are you talking about?

i like the geth and all, but calling it genocide is a joke

[silverexile17s]

pablodomi wrote...

@ silveexile, Have you seen Ashley in a full playthrough on Cronos station? I will provide a link, in case you have some spare time.

For the record, Made Nightwing brought Cerberus into the discussion because there's a good reason Ashley Williams would not join Shepard in ME2. He didn't derail the post, he expressed a fact. I supported some of his assertions with excerpts from the novel "Retribution" (and I assumed you had read it too).

Ash didn't oppose fighting the Collectors, Ash disapproved the business partners Shepard had associated with in ME 2. If Ashley had joined Shepard in ME 2 she would have had to defect and break her oath to the Alliance to join an extremist group, just because Shepard asked her to? I, for one, like the fact that some characters are in the military and sometimes, they act like it. It makes the story believable (which is different from realistic). There's a variety of characters, they have their own agendas, that's why some of them join you in ME2 and some can't or prefer not to.

If you go to talk to Anderson again anytime after Horizon, he says Williams or Alenko confirmed your version of the facts and the implication of the Collectors involvement. Anderson also states he doesn't trust Cerberus and neither should you. Shepard can even ask him to join him in his quest, and he says "no".

Cronos Station: 

Skip to 5:10: url

If you take Ash to Cronos Station, During the last segment, when the squad finds the remains of the human reaper larva, Ash says she wish she had been there (admitting that, with time, she came to understand the full scope of what Shepard was doing in ME 2).

And if there had been some more player agency in the beginning of ME 2, not everybody would have sided with them after getting on the Normandy SR-2.

Again, I don't know if anything Ashley says or does will ever be redeeming enough for you, silverexile, you have already made your mind, a long time ago. You have your own arguments and I'm not going to try to convince you. I doubt we would convince each other of anything at this point.

You may be looking for a very different kind of apologetic behaviour. I understood why she distrusted Shepard and the people he/she was working thing. ME3 just proved her right. The fact is, as a player, I also distrusted the missions TIM gave Shepard in my first playthrough, there always seemed to be a side to his gameplan he was not willing to reveal, a plan that cost the lives of many of his own people. I posted my opinion on Ashley's views on space relations and aliens on the first page of this thread, if you want to check it out. I think I'm done in this thread, Cheers.

Did you see Ashley in that full playthrough? Because she never once acknowledges that she was wrong to mistrust Shepard. She still never admits that she made the wrong choice on Horizon.

For the record, it derailed the topic, since Cerberus' power was that way, and was irrlivent of what Shepard did or didn't do. They had Reaper tech long before the Suicide Mission (airborne Reaper ninites on Chasca, creation of EDI). I have read Retribution, and I played ME1, so unlike you, I noticed that the nanites from the Collector Base are the exact same as what they used on Chasca in ME1 (I'd assumed you had noticed that).

Upon reflection of that, Kaidan admits that he was wrong about Shepard, and that Shepard wouldn't have done that without good reasons. Ashley doens't even acknowledge that she was wrong in her jdugement of Shepard. Looking back, Kaidan admits that he should have trusted Shepard, wheras Ashley doesn't. It makes it look like Kaidan might just have been willing to break away from the Alliance to follow Shepard if he'd had the choice again. We don't see that from Ashley -- she's too tied down to the Alliance. I for one, don't like the fact that one character is so stubborn and self-rightious that they won't admit to mistakes, when the other one will. There's a difference between caution and paranoia.

He also admit that the only reason he can't is because he needs to stay behind so he can Stall out the Alliance and keep them from bringing you in for questioning before you can complete your mission. Getting solid proof that Shepard was right about the Collectors will go a long way in keeping Alliance procicution off Shepard's tail until he/she does what needs to be done to stop the Collectors. Honestly, it has a reason, you know.

After seeing dozens of examples and having it spelled out for her. Kaidan came to the realization in his hospital bed. Ashley has this happen in the middle of Cerberus HQ. And even then,she NEVER says that she made the wrong choice on Horizon. You look at the two side-by-side. The revelation came to Kaidan and he wasd more open to talking out the issues and clearing the air. Ashley was too prideful to.

I fail to see what that has to do with this -- the Collectors are a threat. Shepard's allies understood that Shepard wouldn't do this without good reason, and all of them either agree and follow him/her, or they realize it later and admit they made a mistake. Ashley is the only one in Shepard's entire crew that doesn't do this.

If Ashley had been willing to admit that she's been wrong about Shepard on Horizon, and had been as willing to clear the air about what happened as Kaidan was, we wouldn't be having this arguement right now. Take that into consideration. I've done a playthrough of all three games with her, and I saw the consistant self-rightious inflexible "black and white" viewpoint that made her either question my actions, or refuse to admit to making a mistake. Kaidan was the bigger person between the two -- he was more willing to accept fault for his actions then she was, and he didn't have a chip on his shoulder if he felt people crossed him.

No, I'm looking for something to prove she can be relied on. Kaidan makes it clear that you can rely on him. Ashley simply makes it clear that she'll follow orders -- no reassurance that she has that same level of trust in you, unless you're romancing her. And pardon me for thinking that sharing a bunk shouldn't be a necessary requrement for trusting your CO. And ME3 "proved her right" because the Alliance was included in that too. What people fail to realize is that Ashley's "bear and the dog" mentality is why the entire galaxy is like this to begin with -- they all fear that the other will be screwed over, so they do nothing to help each-other. It's stated by the two guards in the CIC that it's hypocricy to say that, since the Alliance wouldn't be helping the Council either if they had been atacked first instead of Earth. Another thing people like you make the mistake of is thinking that I'm talking about Cerberus -- I'm not. I'm talking about Shepard's actions.

Kaidan admits that he was wrong about Shepard. Ashley doesn't. That's the long and short of it.

[silverexile17s]

RZIBARA wrote...

the geth are goddamn machines, what damn genocide are you talking about?

i like the geth and all, but calling it genocide is a joke

They're a living race. Any race capible of sentiance is. And slaughter of a sentiant, living race is genocide.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:41 .

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...
...
-Wrong. That's you refusing to acknowledge that she would rather ignore what happened there instead of clear the air. I mean, You yourself said in this very fourm that Kaidan talked it out more then Ash. He was more willing to resolve what happened on Horizon as opposed to burying it. How can it be my interpertation when you were the one to point out that Kaidan spoke more oepnly then Ash?
...

It's your interpretation because you are the one requiring the apology in-game for her behavior. Not Shepard in-game, and not myself as another fellow player. This is the cause of your uncertainly with her... blah blah blah. I'm not sure how much more explicit and obvious that could be.

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
-Wrong. That's you refusing to acknowledge that she would rather ignore what happened there instead of clear the air. I mean, You yourself said in this very fourm that Kaidan talked it out more then Ash. He was more willing to resolve what happened on Horizon as opposed to burying it. How can it be my interpertation when you were the one to point out that Kaidan spoke more oepnly then Ash?
...

It's your interpretation because you are the one requiring the apology in-game for her behavior. Not Shepard in-game, and not myself as another fellow player. This is the cause of your uncertainly with her... blah blah blah. I'm not sure how much more explicit and obvious that could be.

No, it's yours. You are the one that thinks it's fine if a soldier harbors doubts about you, or refuses to air out any grudges when the entire galaxy is at stake. What you fail to realize is that it's more then just an apology -- it's affermation that you two are a team, confirmation that they accept that you did what you did because you had good reasons for it and are sorry for doubting you, and resolution that they aren't going to lose faith in your choices again. Kaidan makes it clear that he'll stand by you. Ashley doesn't, and only gives assurance that she'll follow you. There's a difference -- one is putting faith in you and standing side-by-side, while the other is just following you, unless you are romancing her.
Once again, you completely misinterpert it. Assurance that Ashley isn't going to harbor doubts all through the mission is critical here. You don't need someone with unresolved baggage questioning you in the middle of a war for the entire galaxy. Kaidan resolves the issues the first chance he gets, while Ashley wants to ignore the fact that she was wrong -- that's a difference in character that is present completely regardless of what mentality your Shepard has, and isn't connected to you as a player, or Shepard in-game. Saying things like that is an excuse, and one that doesn't stick. Kaidan's more mature, more humble -- he has, to put it bluntly, more intregity then Ashley because he can admit when he screwed up, and take active steps in resolveing it.
And this isn't the "base of my uncertianty" with her -- this is based on her performance in all three games compared to Kaidan's. Kaidan overall is the bigger person, and the one you would trust with watching your back.  Ashley is the kind of person who's back you have to watch for her. Kaidan talks it out and resolves it knowing you can't have that kind of unresolved crap in a war were absolute trust is key. Ashley would rather bury it and ignore the faults. Just like you would rather place your faith in a handwave "I'll follow you" over an "I trust you."
"I'm not sure how much more explict and obvious that could be."
 

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[RZIBARA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
-Wrong. That's you refusing to acknowledge that she would rather ignore what happened there instead of clear the air. I mean, You yourself said in this very fourm that Kaidan talked it out more then Ash. He was more willing to resolve what happened on Horizon as opposed to burying it. How can it be my interpertation when you were the one to point out that Kaidan spoke more oepnly then Ash?
...

It's your interpretation because you are the one requiring the apology in-game for her behavior. Not Shepard in-game, and not myself as another fellow player. This is the cause of your uncertainly with her... blah blah blah. I'm not sure how much more explicit and obvious that could be.

No, it's yours. You are the one that thinks it's fine if a soldier harbors doubts about you, or refuses to air out any grudges when the entire galaxy is at stake. blah blah blah a bunch of useless garbage

and the krogan dont? 

......

[Bruce M. Shepard]

 Emphasis.

[eyezonlyii]

2 things:

Just because she has doubts, won't make her an effective soldier. So long as Shepard doesn't prove her wrong, there is nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, just because she doesn't tell you she won't doubt you, doesn't mean she will. Remember that story about her sister in ME1? "The Williams girls are a tough bunch, we'll come around when we decide to, not before." or something to that effect. I can't comment further, because I don't have an Ashley playthrough yet.

[Ryzaki]

True but my Shep doesn't have time to be worried about someone's doubts and if he proves them right or wrong he's having little boy nightmares, trying to avoid being Reaper chow and so on. Don't have no time for that.

But the 2 Sheps that I have that have Ashley in ME3 either kill her or tell her to pack her bags and go with Hackett.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...
...
"I'm not sure how much more explict and obvious that could be."
 

Sure, it is obvious that you like Kaiden more than Ashley, and you don't know what "interpretation" or "opinon" are.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[Star fury]

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

Devs also deleted a scene where Ash asks Shepard about his/her death experience. Probably wanted to make her as bland as possible.

[Iakus]

Star fury wrote...

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

Devs also deleted a scene where Ash asks Shepard about his/her death experience. Probably wanted to make her as bland as possible.

Yup.  Probably the best conversation in the whole script and it ends up on the cutting room floor. 

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

Devs also deleted a scene where Ash asks Shepard about his/her death experience. Probably wanted to make her as bland as possible.

Yup.  Probably the best conversation in the whole script and it ends up on the cutting room floor. 

Ashley was interesting, but...handled clumsily in ME1, to put it mildly. Having lines like "As much as you love your dog, it isn't human," and "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," no matter where they're supposed to be placed, is playing with fire anyway... and on top of that, having her be somewhat self-righteously religious ("Hello? How can you look out the window and not believe in something?"or something to that effect)? Given that a lot of people who play games are doing so, not unreasonably, with short attention spans, a negative reaction was inevitable.

[Star fury]

Barquiel wrote...

Ashley was one of the better written squadmates in ME1 (probably even the best), but I was never very fond of her. I stongly disagree on her view of aliens (sorry, but calling them bug-eyed monsters has nothing to do with "realism")...and when everyone from Hackett and Anderson to the council had more faith in Shepard than her old teammate, there's something wrong with the picture. There's wary and there's paranoid.

I don't think every single NPC has to be a xenophile like Kelly. 

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ashley was interesting, but...handled clumsily in ME1, to put it mildly. Having lines like "As much as you love your dog, it isn't human," and "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," no matter where they're supposed to be placed, is playing with fire anyway... and on top of that, having her be somewhat self-righteously religious ("Hello? How can you look out the window and not believe in something?"or something to that effect)? Given that a lot of people who play games are doing so, not unreasonably, with short attention spans, a negative reaction was inevitable.

Yeah that's pretty much what she says. To make this more facepalm inducing Shep hasn't even said whether he/she was religious only expressed that everyone is free to believe what they want. So my atheist Shep got a nice insult for having the audacity to feel everyone believes what the hell they want.

Star fury wrote...

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is likely what brought about her "makeover". Her "sex appeal" uniform, her meek dialogue almost entirely about "safe" topics like her family.  All to make her inoffensive.  Just another hottie to ogle 

Devs also deleted a scene where Ash asks Shepard about his/her death experience. Probably wanted to make her as bland as possible.

Yeah that was pretty bad. Plus it's perfect opportunity for my troll Shep to shine "I saw a really bright light." 

"You did?"

"Yeah it was the Cerberus room. They really needed to tone down the bubs."

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[Star fury]

iakus wrote...
Yup.  Probably the best conversation in the whole script and it ends up on the cutting room floor. 

Yeah, it's a very intriguing dialog and the religion was one of her defining characteristics. 

[Star fury]

pablodomi wrote...

Ash didn't oppose fighting the Collectors, Ash disapproved the business partners Shepard had associated with in ME 2. If Ashley had joined Shepard in ME 2 she would have had to defect and break her oath to the Alliance to join an extremist group, just because Shepard asked her to? I, for one, like the fact that some characters are in the military and sometimes, they act like it. It makes the story believable (which is different from realistic). There's a variety of characters, they have their own agendas, that's why some of them join you in ME2 and some can't or prefer not to.

Exactly. I like the logic of some posters in this thread - Ashley Williams is a racist, xenophobe who hates their precious asari or quarians or whatever. But they also blame her for not joining a racist, xenophobic organization who wants human supremacy in the Galaxy. Charming.

Ashley joining Cerberus would be too much out of character, she's loyal to Alliance and she's also would be extremely negative towards joining terrorists with her family history. "A [Williams has to be better than the best" and all that.
 

Modifié par Star fury, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:17 .

[maaaad365]

I think she is a true patriot and she loves Earth / humanity too much. That's why she is so good at her job and so radical in her atitude and opinions.

She is definetly not a b-woman.

[Iakus]

Star fury wrote...

iakus wrote...
Yup.  Probably the best conversation in the whole script and it ends up on the cutting room floor. 

Yeah, it's a very intriguing dialog and the religion was one of her defining characteristics. 

I would have taken that talk over a drinking game in the Citadel DLC easily.

[Jorji Costava]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley was interesting, but...handled clumsily in ME1, to put it mildly. Having lines like "As much as you love your dog, it isn't human," and "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," no matter where they're supposed to be placed, is playing with fire anyway... and on top of that, having her be somewhat self-righteously religious ("Hello? How can you look out the window and not believe in something?"or something to that effect)? Given that a lot of people who play games are doing so, not unreasonably, with short attention spans, a negative reaction was inevitable.

It's worth keeping in mind that in the famous dog analogy, it's actually humanity that's being compared to the dog. The point is that just as we'll never have equal regard for the interests of our dogs as ourselves, alien states will never regard humanity's interests as being as important as their own. As far as her comments about religion, I don't remember the exact context, but I would resist the idea that "Having strong opinions that disagree with the PC's" = bad writing.

I don't have much stake in the waifu wars (I've always skipped the romances), but having spent some time in some more red state-ish regions of the US, I felt that the character convincingly captured some of the spirit of what that's like. I also appreciate that the characterization of Ashley doesn't cater to any obvious fantasies. None of the writers had this conversation: "Let's make her nationalistic, religious, tom-boyish, etc. That's clearly what our male audience will find most attractive."