134 réponses à ce sujet

[Moby]

DEM DEEPS

[megabeast37215]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I mean... Seriously... We are all pretty knowledgeable here. We all know that you don't go into a match without an appropriate amount of piercing on your weapon. This is especially true in the case of SMGs, Shotguns and ARs, which tend to be low damage per bullet/pellet weapons. 

I mean... If you're using Warp, you are very likely using Warp ammo, which reduces the armor penalty. Probably some sort of peircing mod, like the High Velocity Barrels, Shredder Mod, etc. (Which affords cover penetration as well).

So... If we have all these answers for the armor penalty already built into our setups, why do we need the Pierce evo on Warp? It's redundant. You already have over 100% armor DR mitigation from Warp ammo and piercing mods. It doesn't stop you from cheese-ing, or anything like that. The raw damage vs armor is a complete joke. It makes more sense to me to take recharge speed, especially on classes using medium/heavy weapons... So you can transition to the next target faster. 

Thoughts?

Because warp incendiary deeeepzzz

Slowpoke.jpg

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

prostheticlimbs wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Deerber wrote...

That is an absolute stance and, as all absolutes, is pretty stupid.

But isn't that...?

Shh..just let it happen.

I can feel the peace flowing through me already.  I'm just going to delight in the sentence structure, in which the proper verb usage survives an appositive phrase with a plural noun.  This is almost as good as when someone uses "I couldn't care less," instead of the idiotic "I could care less".

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

I would think that recharge speed could be the preferable choice on a pure BE kit like, say, the human sentinel. A little bit of extra damage on a dragoon doesn't seem worth as much as getting that BE combo on him .3 seconds earlier to me. And the quicker recharge speed can also free up more weapon weight, which amounts to greater weapon versatility or damage.

And .3 seconds reiterated over the course of an entire mission can add up to a notable number of additional explosions.

Is my reasoning flawed on these points?

Your reasoning is fine.

I've built three manifests from scratch using a Human Sentinel, and the Recharge evo on a BE-based build is very noticeable over the course of a game. It adds up very quickly, particularly when you consider that with recharge, you can launch Throw before an enemy staggered by Warp has recovered enough to counterattack you, and the subsequent BE can clear an area and stagger everything a second time, allowing you to follow with Warp again and complete a spawn-clearing BE a second time even quicker.

On Gold and Platinum, it becomes even more pronounced, due to the increased damage of Biotic Explosions associated with those difficulties.

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

megawug wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Ferocious Panda wrote...

Neural shock doesn't just knock down organics though, it makes overload do twice as much damage to organics. It doesn't say that though, because bioware

Because here at Bioware, we rely on on players to figure out what our programs actually do.

Yeah, but it's also a sense of discovery for players.  BSNers have figured out things that even the devs weren't really aware of.  It made the game far more involved than the usual tic-tac-toe game mechanics.

Yes, but as a non-haxxor, I would like too see an accurate tooltip from Bioware before I die.

[Yo Son]

You can never have 100 percent armor reduction. Why? because it is a multiplicative thingy, in other words it does not add, 65 percent armor mitigation from HVB + 90 percent armor mitigation from AP IV does not give you 155 armor mitigation, but rather 90 percent is mitigated by AP mod, and 65 percent of the 10 percent is mitigated by HVB mod.

Am sure oni cannon can explain it better .

[Caineghis2500]

The rank 5 debuff is enough for me because how many things actually die from the rank 6's lingering affect, let alone the impact of the power when used? You'll get a lot more mileage with with warp being only at rank 5 debuff and those extra 6 points be used elsewhere in the build.

Modifié par caineghis2500, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[OniGanon]

It's hardly a thing limited to BioWare.

I can't even think of a game with accurate, detailed information on powers/weapons/items/whatever that includes everything a player should know about it.

[OniGanon]

Yo Son wrote...

You can never have 100 percent armor reduction. Why? because it is a multiplicative thingy, in other words it does not add, 65 percent armor mitigation from HVB + 90 percent armor mitigation from AP IV does not give you 155 armor mitigation, but rather 90 percent is mitigated by AP mod, and 65 percent of the 10 percent is mitigated by HVB mod.

Am sure oni cannon can explain it better .

You can have 100% armor ignore (eg HVB, AP mod/ammo). Just stack an AP mod with AP/Drill ammo to 100% and there you go.

It's armor ignore and armor weakening (Warp, Cryo) that stack together multiplicatively and can't hit 100%.

I thought armor weakening could also be stacked with itself to 100% but then I've read somewhere that Warp/Cryo ammo doesn't apply weakening if there's already weakening present, so... yeah I'm not sure about that any more. You'd have to ask someone who actually tests this stuff; I only parrot what others tell me.

Also I'm having fun imagining a cannon that launches Japanese ogre demons. Thanks for that.

Modifié par OniGanon, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Yo Son wrote...

You can never have 100 percent armor reduction. 

You can, it has been explained somewhere, although I don't have the thread handy.

(Ninja'd.)

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:28 .

[Zjarcal]

Max Dmian wrote...

Main reason to choose Neural Shock is the extra damage, especially helpful against Phantoms.

Indeed.

Overload specced for pure damage on a power based built Human Engineer using Engineering kit and Power Amplifier IV...

Without Neural Shock, 2755 damage vs shields and barriers

With Neural Shock, 4408 vs organic shields and barriers

It's kind of ridiculous really. 

On topic, I rarely take 6a on Warp myself, only if being used in combination with Incendiary cheese or if I'm using a crappy weapon for the lulz where the standard piercing mod still leaves much damage lost.

Also, regarding penetration mods, I definitely take them over more theoritcal damage all the time, it's extremely noticeable vs Atlases, and significantly noticeable vs all other enemies vulnerable to that glitch. Plus, not being able to penetrate cover always sucks.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 09 novembre 2013 - 05:54 .

[Tybo]

Zjarcal wrote...

Max Dmian wrote...

Main reason to choose Neural Shock is the extra damage, especially helpful against Phantoms.

Indeed.

Overload specced for pure damage on a power based built Human Engineer using Engineering kit and Power Amplifier IV...

Without Neural Shock, 2755 damage vs shields and barriers

With Neural Shock, 4408 vs organic shields and barriers

It's kind of ridiculous really. 

On topic, I rarely take 6a on Warp myself, only if being used in combination with Incendiary cheese or if I'm using a crappy weapon for the lulz where the standard piercing mod still leaves much damage lost.

Also, regarding penetration mods, I definitely take them over more theoritcal damage all the time, it's extremely noticeable vs Atlases, and significantly noticeable vs all other enemies vulnerable to that glitch. Plus, not being able to penetrate cover always sucks.

^This

Crucially, this crosses the threshold for phantom barriers on both gold and platinum.  It's worth taking for that reason alone, even if the knockdown is annoying.  Plus, if you aren't playing platinum, you can take weapon damage upgrades in the passive instead.

I do often take 6a Warp though, because recharge speed is lackluster enough that I'd rather have the option for incendiary cheese than recharge speed.

And you really never should skip penetration.  It helps significantly against all enemy types:  Stops Primes from blocking your shots with drones, Banshee/Ravager double hits are easy, Scion/Praetorian double hits are easy, and Atlas double hits are easy.  I always hate games where I accidentally forget to bring penetration

[Lucky]

Cause they have no imagination when it comes to builds.

Skipping 6 or taking recharge with a heavy loadout can be just as viable choices.

[Kalas Magnus]

The-Fantasm wrote...

There's no such thing as too much piercing.

[Evil]

OniGanon wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Deerber wrote...

That is an absolute stance and, as all absolutes, is pretty stupid.

But isn't that...?

There's an exception to every rule. Except this rule. But by being an exception to this rule, it proves that there is an exception to every rule. But it's only proven because this is a rule without exception.

I forgot where I was going with this...

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5473232384/h3DB314F2/

Anyway, pierce is usually a better choice, simply because it allows for better performance in a casual silver pug without ammo consumables, at the cost of a paltry 0.3 seconds per cast on most kits.

Not everyone plays gold and platinum exclusively, you know.

As tantum points out however, those 0.3 secs can add up over the course of a match.

Still, I haven't found a single kit loadout where I'd prefer the recharge speed over the increased debuff and dot vs armour/barriers yet, but I'm at least prepared to consider it.

An example of a build that genuinely benifits from the recharge evo, just to prove a point:
kalence.drupalgardens.com/me3-builder#39!3B12555!!23W53373!.G0AG

It gives a saving of 1.43 seconds on sabotage like this, not inconsiderable, since that means more tech debuffs for teammates, more CC, and more easy headshots.

EDIT:  See the post below, Deerber might have a point...

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:09 .

[Supreme Leech]

That's like asking why is everyone set on using biotic charge on vanguards? Or asking why is everyone set on speccing tactical cloak on infiltrators? Extremely dumb thread is extremely dumb. There is only one valid way to spec warp. Warp is useless without pierce, in the same way that infiltrators are useless without cloak.

[OniGanon]

I'm actually starting to wonder if the best mods for my TSent's Hurricane might be just Clip + Heatsink, rather than EB, HVB or scope...

Modifié par OniGanon, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Evil]

OniGanon wrote...

I'm actually starting to wonder if the best mods for my TSent's Hurricane might be just Clip + Heatsink.

Do you use incindiary ammo?
If so, more shots without reloading = more ammo application, so probably.

Guardians will be a PITA like this though.

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 09 novembre 2013 - 07:18 .

[Zero132132]

I don't have a lot of good AP mods yet, and with the stupid low-weight setups I aim for, it's like.. 0.2 seconds different or something.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

OniGanon wrote...

It's hardly a thing limited to BioWare.

I can't even think of a game with accurate, detailed information on powers/weapons/items/whatever that includes everything a player should know about it.

Yeah, that's a good point.  I've been a pretty steady Bioware customer, especially when it comes to RPG-style games.  There's a good chance that I'm being too hard on Bioware just because I'm usually playing one of their games when I'm customizing a character.

Okay, Bioware, I apologize.  It's not reasonable to hold you to a standard that no one else is meeting, either.

[Sailears]

I take recharge on the melee shaman for setting of BEs, but it really depends on the weight.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

XFG-65 wrote...

That's like asking why is everyone set on using biotic charge on vanguards? Or asking why is everyone set on speccing tactical cloak on infiltrators? Extremely dumb thread is extremely dumb. There is only one valid way to spec warp. Warp is useless without pierce, in the same way that infiltrators are useless without cloak.

Your utter lack of knowledge about the how the game works is endlessly entertaining! 

[Moby]

XFG-65 wrote...

That's like asking why is everyone set on using biotic charge on vanguards? Or asking why is everyone set on speccing tactical cloak on infiltrators? Extremely dumb thread is extremely dumb. There is only one valid way to spec warp. Warp is useless without pierce, in the same way that infiltrators are useless without cloak.

Extremely dumb poster is extremely dumb.

[Ferocious Panda]

XFG-65 wrote...

That's like asking why is everyone set on using biotic charge on vanguards? Or asking why is everyone set on speccing tactical cloak on infiltrators? Extremely dumb thread is extremely dumb. There is only one valid way to spec warp. Warp is useless without pierce, in the same way that infiltrators are useless without cloak.

i hope this was a joke post 

[Randomical]

I totally agree with you, OP. Even without 6a evo Warp provides 25% armor weakening, and bumping it up to 50% is pointless for me as I always take warp ammo 3 or 4 for biotics. So I either spec for recharge speed(Human Adept, Krogan Shaman) or don't spec into the sixth evo at all(Turian Sentinel).