91 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Rachni. On the other hand you have Tuchnaka with your decision involving Wrex and the genophage data actually playing out rather nicely. I wanted more of the latter and less of the former I guess.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 10 novembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[Oni Changas]

OP. You misunderstand. Despite whateverthe**** you do in this series, they have no bearing on your choice of iWIN in the ending. Differences are visual at best, with prologues that are as qualitative as a Street Fighter ending. Its all tossed out the proverbial airlock in favor of a new narrative that completely micros everything that came before going in the reaper conduit.

[Kataphrut94]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It helps to not be completely jaded about this sort of thing if you're wondering about whether choices mattered or not. If all you can say about choices is that they determine what EMS you got, then good for you, you emotionless robot. Consider the amount of crap you get to decide in this game, both on an epic and personal scale. These are the sort of decisions which affect lives, relationships and sometimes entire species. How could they not matter?

Because you aren't shown what happens. You aren't given much conclusion.

It's left to the imagination. Which is fine to certain extent, but too much was left entirely to headcanon. You make a choice and it disappears, never to be seen again. You don't see what your choiced caused, or how it affected other things. It's not interconnected with the universe. Many choices feel like they're standalone.

That's my take on it.

I think you're given a good enough indicator of what happens. The Shadow Broker terminal in Liara's office for example, or even the war asset list are pretty good at showing you what's happening in the world as a result of what you've done. Yes, it's just the written word, but is that really so bad? Can we not just use our imagination and work with what we've got? Shepard can't be everywhere at once.

[AlanC9]

OniTYME wrote...

OP. You misunderstand. Despite whateverthe**** you do in this series, they have no bearing on your choice of iWIN in the ending. Differences are visual at best, with prologues that are as qualitative as a Street Fighter ending. Its all tossed out the proverbial airlock in favor of a new narrative that completely micros everything that came before going in the reaper conduit.

Micros?

[Deverz]

AlanC9 wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

OP. You misunderstand. Despite whateverthe**** you do in this series, they have no bearing on your choice of iWIN in the ending. Differences are visual at best, with prologues that are as qualitative as a Street Fighter ending. Its all tossed out the proverbial airlock in favor of a new narrative that completely micros everything that came before going in the reaper conduit.

Micros?

I suspect he means marginalize.

[AlanC9]

OK. Then he's just being silly.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It helps to not be completely jaded about this sort of thing if you're wondering about whether choices mattered or not. If all you can say about choices is that they determine what EMS you got, then good for you, you emotionless robot. Consider the amount of crap you get to decide in this game, both on an epic and personal scale. These are the sort of decisions which affect lives, relationships and sometimes entire species. How could they not matter?

Because you aren't shown what happens. You aren't given much conclusion.

It's left to the imagination. Which is fine to certain extent, but too much was left entirely to headcanon. You make a choice and it disappears, never to be seen again. You don't see what your choiced caused, or how it affected other things. It's not interconnected with the universe. Many choices feel like they're standalone.

That's my take on it.

I think you're given a good enough indicator of what happens.

That's great, but I don't think I am.

The Shadow Broker terminal in Liara's office for example, or even the war asset list are pretty good at showing you what's happening in the world as a result of what you've done. Yes, it's just the written word, but is that really so bad?

Yes! It is that bad! I want to see the effects and hear about them. I want to see what the possibility leads to, not have to headcanon it.

Can we not just use our imagination and work with what we've got? Shepard can't be everywhere at once.

Because our imagination is all we have. There's too much DIY, and not enough actual depiction in the story. We're being told what's happening. We aren't being shown what's happening.

[FlamingBoy]

In many cases we were not even told, we were expected to assume with very little data.

[Sebby]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It helps to not be completely jaded about this sort of thing if you're wondering about whether choices mattered or not. If all you can say about choices is that they determine what EMS you got, then good for you, you emotionless robot. Consider the amount of crap you get to decide in this game, both on an epic and personal scale. These are the sort of decisions which affect lives, relationships and sometimes entire species. How could they not matter?

I totally loved how whether or not you made peace in Rannoch or chose Geth over Quarian (or vice versa) had a great impact on the narrative.... oh wait, it didn't. I was still going down the same linear corridors and popping the same moles as everyone else while experiencing the same story.

[AlanC9]

Seboist wrote...
I totally loved how whether or not you made peace in Rannoch or chose Geth over Quarian (or vice versa) had a great impact on the narrative.... oh wait, it didn't. I was still going down the same linear corridors and popping the same moles as everyone else while experiencing the same story.

Had you ever played a Bio game before? This is what they've always done.

[Kataphrut94]

Seboist wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It helps to not be completely jaded about this sort of thing if you're wondering about whether choices mattered or not. If all you can say about choices is that they determine what EMS you got, then good for you, you emotionless robot. Consider the amount of crap you get to decide in this game, both on an epic and personal scale. These are the sort of decisions which affect lives, relationships and sometimes entire species. How could they not matter?

I totally loved how whether or not you made peace in Rannoch or chose Geth over Quarian (or vice versa) had a great impact on the narrative.... oh wait, it didn't. I was still going down the same linear corridors and popping the same moles as everyone else while experiencing the same story.

Except you know, you saved or destroyed an entire species. Again, you're looking for technical, intellectual gratification, not story gratification. I don't care what cutscenes or dialogue snippets it may or may not change on Priority: Earth, I got everything I needed from that arc when the geth prime walks up to Admiral Raan and says "You are welcome to return to Rannoch with us". That was a moment when what I did felt like it genuinely mattered; I got these warring peoples to sit down, shut up and stop trying to kill each other and it was glorious.

And it's a choice that matters because not everybody had that experience. Maybe instead they saw the quarians blow the geth out of the sky and reclaim their homeworld. Or maybe they saw Tali take a tumble over the cliff while the geth did what must be done to their **** creators. You cannot deny that people were experiencing different stories there.

[SlottsMachine]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I totally loved how whether or not you made peace in Rannoch or chose Geth over Quarian (or vice versa) had a great impact on the narrative.... oh wait, it didn't. I was still going down the same linear corridors and popping the same moles as everyone else while experiencing the same story.

Had you ever played a Bio game before? This is what they've always done.

Fair enough. But this was supposed to be different, otherwise why bother with the import feature at all. 

[Kataphrut94]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I want to see the effects and hear about them. I want to see what the possibility leads to, not have to headcanon it.

In most cases, you do see the effects of what happened without the need for headcanonning. Name an instance where you don't, or why it matters that you only hear about it without seeing it first-hand. Again, Shepard can't be everywhere, sometimes it makes sense that we don't always directly see the outcome.

[Iakus]

 "And I think that’s one of the things we really underestimated, which was how much ownership people would take over a character that they could do that. You know, you’ve been given free choice to make all these decisions with this character, with the fates of millions of people, and then, you don’t get to choose your own fate. And I’m not saying that our decision was wrong or right. I think we just underestimated the impact that would have on certain players. To be fair, I get people, especially at the Cons, who will say, “I loved it. It was heart-wrenching, but I felt it was right for my Shepard.” And to me, that’s why it was the right path. But because there was no choice, it was going to be right for some people, and for others, in the middle, and other people were obviously very upset about it. In hindsight, I don’t think there was anything we would have changed about that, but it is a really good lesson learned"

-Mac Walter

emphases mine

And this was why ME3 failed, and why I have little to no confidence in any further Mass Effect games.

[Sebby]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It helps to not be completely jaded about this sort of thing if you're wondering about whether choices mattered or not. If all you can say about choices is that they determine what EMS you got, then good for you, you emotionless robot. Consider the amount of crap you get to decide in this game, both on an epic and personal scale. These are the sort of decisions which affect lives, relationships and sometimes entire species. How could they not matter?

I totally loved how whether or not you made peace in Rannoch or chose Geth over Quarian (or vice versa) had a great impact on the narrative.... oh wait, it didn't. I was still going down the same linear corridors and popping the same moles as everyone else while experiencing the same story.

Except you know, you saved or destroyed an entire species. Again, you're looking for technical, intellectual gratification, not story gratification. I don't care what cutscenes or dialogue snippets it may or may not change on Priority: Earth, I got everything I needed from that arc when the geth prime walks up to Admiral Raan and says "You are welcome to return to Rannoch with us". That was a moment when what I did felt like it genuinely mattered; I got these warring peoples to sit down, shut up and stop trying to kill each other and it was glorious.

And it's a choice that matters because not everybody had that experience. Maybe instead they saw the quarians blow the geth out of the sky and reclaim their homeworld. Or maybe they saw Tali take a tumble over the cliff while the geth did what must be done to their **** creators. You cannot deny that people were experiencing different stories there.

Except that I can, a few brief interchangable fluff dialogues and cutscenes that exist in complete bubbles from everything else do not change a story. What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

ME3 is just a sub-par Gears clone with the illusion of illusion of choices. It's a travesty when something from an interactive medium has non-choices that provide the same experience as merely watching something on youtube.

[AlanC9]

Seboist wrote...


Except that I can, a few brief interchangable fluff dialogues and cutscenes that exist in complete bubbles from everything else do not change a story. What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

Huh? Getting the geth and/or quarians exterminated has nothing to do with headcanon.

[Kataphrut94]

Seboist wrote...

Except that I can, a few brief interchangable fluff dialogues and cutscenes that exist in complete bubbles from everything else do not change a story. What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

ME3 is just a sub-par Gears clone with the illusion of illusion of choices. It's a travesty when something from an interactive medium has non-choices that provide the same experience as merely watching something on youtube.

What are you jibbering about? I just explained how a choice you can make in a game has a significant effect and you write it off as 'interchangeable fluff'. You could dismiss anything if you look at it like that. I think the problem is less with the choices and more with you having no idea what you want from them.

[Fixers0]

Choices don't matter in the sense that the consequence devalues the choice. When two radically different options lead to a 95% plus similiar scenario despite earlier implications it's highly contrived and logically laughable, not to mention devastating to the suspension of disbelief. The amount of contrivance anywhere between Highly improbably to downright inconsistant, examples of this are the Rachni queen and the Collector base respectivly.

[nos_astra]

jtav wrote...
Not strawmanning. The post that touched this off implied BW lied because the choices didn't effect the ending, as if the sole purpose of a choice is to determine the endgame.

It's called window dressing. Very few choices have a lasting impact. Those that do are often tied to killing someone.
The narrative still plays out largely the same, though, which means the choices were meaningless.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:13 .

[Sebby]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Except that I can, a few brief interchangable fluff dialogues and cutscenes that exist in complete bubbles from everything else do not change a story. What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

ME3 is just a sub-par Gears clone with the illusion of illusion of choices. It's a travesty when something from an interactive medium has non-choices that provide the same experience as merely watching something on youtube.

What are you jibbering about? I just explained how a choice you can make in a game has a significant effect and you write it off as 'interchangeable fluff'. You could dismiss anything if you look at it like that. I think the problem is less with the choices and more with you having no idea what you want from them.

You explained nothing other than your head in the sand denial of these "choices" being the laughable farce that they are. Like Fixer said, they all lead to the same contrived scenarios but with an interchangable characters (ex. Mordin/Wiks) and dialogue that are feeble excuses for why one's previous choices lead to the same conclusion.

And I know perfectly well what I want from choices, tangible gameplay and story impact. What stand alone games like Dragon Age: Origins, Witcher 2 and New Vegas provide while ME falls flat on it's face and fails to do with three whole games. We're given alternate missions, different approaches with how to tackle objectives, factions or characters we may or not have to fight at all and real story dvergence, not some "choose your cutscene" rubbish that's a  thin disguise for a linear cover shooter with dialogue options and spellcasting.

Modifié par Seboist, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[nos_astra]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Except that I can, a few brief interchangable fluff dialogues and cutscenes that exist in complete bubbles from everything else do not change a story. What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

Huh? Getting the geth and/or quarians exterminated has nothing to do with headcanon.

What does it matter the moment you leave Rannoch?

[AlexMBrennan]

What people are "experiencing" is their own make believe headcanon(aka LARPing).

Live action role playing? I.e. dressing up as wizards and running around the woods?

[Estelindis]

Linkenski wrote...

Choices do matter, but at the most pivotal moment it comes like a slap in the face that you can't use your past choices as evidence that the whole theme presented in the ending revolves around a non-existing issue, that should not need a solution.

Well said.  I agree, but probably wouldn't be able to express it this succinctly.  The choices make a huge difference along the way, e.g. geth and quarians.  The fact that Shepard doesn't have an option to use this experience to refute the Catalyst's nonsense is very frustrating.

[Linkenski]

iakus wrote...

 "And I think that’s one of the things we really underestimated, which was how much ownership people would take over a character that they could do that. You know, you’ve been given free choice to make all these decisions with this character, with the fates of millions of people, and then, you don’t get to choose your own fate. And I’m not saying that our decision was wrong or right. I think we just underestimated the impact that would have on certain players. To be fair, I get people, especially at the Cons, who will say, “I loved it. It was heart-wrenching, but I felt it was right for my Shepard.” And to me, that’s why it was the right path. But because there was no choice, it was going to be right for some people, and for others, in the middle, and other people were obviously very upset about it. In hindsight, I don’t think there was anything we would have changed about that, but it is a really good lesson learned"

-Mac Walter

emphases mine

And this was why ME3 failed, and why I have little to no confidence in any further Mass Effect games.

ME3 failed because its ending was a coupout that ruined all meaning and sense found in ME1 and to some level, ME2.

The fact that choice was taken away from the player was icing on the cake, but I guess the outcry wouldn't have been as massive if we'd get to tell the Catalyst to go home with his idiot theory and his reaper armada.