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[General Balls]

LucidStrike wrote...

...I see only the bitterness of someone who wants the bleeding hearts to suffer merely for their kindness. You don't really make any moral or ethical arguments. You just suppose that Paragon choices are stupid and Renegade choices are right. What moral principles are you following? What's the thought process?

You see what you want to see, I suppose. I'm not going to argue with you on that point.

"If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and
recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when
they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory."
- Kreia

Modifié par General Balls, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:28 .

[Marlina]

Collider wrote...

You don't need to say those things are not right or wrong, even if you believe morals to be subjective. Don't you have your own opinions?

I have my own (subjective) opinions, but they're ultimately irrelevant. They're only passing feelings. To me, stuff just happens, and people react accordingly. There are no inherent moral values to any actions. That is my belief, anyway.

[Collider]

It would be better if some "paragon" decisions ended up unfavorably or something to that effect. We aren't omniscient, sometimes doing what you think is altruistic or compassionate doesn't end up well. Some people don't take compliments well, etc.

[Nashkital]

Marlina wrote...

Wat? The ME alignments don't have anything to do with lawful/chaotic behavior. :| They're about the METHODS. Paragon = not sacrificing your own personal morals for the job, renegade = ends justify the means.

Wat? Not about lawful or chaotic behavior? One could argue your methods follow your behavior. Or they could go hand in hand, a lawful shep who is a chaotic person could explain a renegade perfectly. You uphold the law, but you do anything in your power to make sure the law is followed even if it means stepping on a few toes.

For example my paragon shep always seems to punch manuel no matter how I seem to aim the reticule...

[Collider]

Marlina wrote...

Collider wrote...
You don't need to say those things are not right or wrong, even if you believe morals to be subjective. Don't you have your own opinions?

I have my own (subjective) opinions, but they're ultimately irrelevant. They're only passing feelings. To me, stuff just happens, and people react accordingly. There are no inherent moral values to any actions. That is my belief, anyway.

Really? How about rape? I'm not talking about objectivity, but you don't think rape is inherently immoral (as your opinion)?

[invert180]

Here's the thing about the Mass Effect trilogy... this isn't about how someone else played their game.  This is about how you played the game.  It's about how you, yourself, justified the decisions you made.  Because in your game, the choices you made were the right ones in spite of anything that happens as a result of those choices.  After all, you accomplished your mission objective.  You may have taken a different route to get there, but you still saved the galaxy in the end.  I would imagine a renegade player would feel vindicated by this fact.  Again, the choices you made in your game were the right ones.  As the Bioware developers always say: Mass Effect is your story.

I'm continually amazed by individuals who are so angry that others could have the audacity to make choices that are different from their own.  Honestly, can you not be content with your own decisions?  Why do you even want people who happen to play out their story in a different way to "suffer the consequences"?  Why do other people have to suffer for you to be gratified?  It's borderline sadism.

Modifié par invert180, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:35 .

[Nashkital]

Collider wrote...

Marlina wrote...

Collider wrote...
You don't need to say those things are not right or wrong, even if you believe morals to be subjective. Don't you have your own opinions?

I have my own (subjective) opinions, but they're ultimately irrelevant. They're only passing feelings. To me, stuff just happens, and people react accordingly. There are no inherent moral values to any actions. That is my belief, anyway.

Really? How about rape? I'm not talking about objectivity, but you don't think rape is inherently immoral (as your opinion)?

You are missing the point of Marlina's statements. She is saying on the grand scale opinions will come and go. Do you want an example?

Not too long ago it was considered trendy to take naked photos of little girls as art. The famous author of Alice in Wonderland happened to partake in such a hobby. (Again that was part of the time period, whether the author was a pedo is undetermined.)

[LucidStrike]

Chained_Creator wrote...

]I don't think we're talking on the same wavelength here. Beleiving in a deontological system means that you only believe in black/white decisions. They're a perfect example of deontological moral reasoning. "There can only be a good or bad decision."

The only moral principle I fully believe in is something like the non-aggression principle, which is deontological.

I think I'm having trouble communicating what I mean when I say they're inadequate representations. I suppose it's because, even as a deontologist, I see things in a sort of grayscale. Basically, I see some immoral decisions as worse than other immoral decisions and some moral decisions as better than other moral decisions. Grayscale seems a better model for that, but it also models other systems pretty well. The black/white/grayscale models seem to sort of lack a dimension.

Meh. Splitting hairs, maybe.

[DeathCultArm]

ME1 will never have the choies "pefect" b/c it's impossible. Too many people believe in right and wrong, and too many people just want cookie cutter decision. If you do the "bad" thing you get the "bad" consequence, and vice versa. Too many people don't even want THE option to handle the situation severly b/c it's wrong.

[Collider]

Nashkital wrote...
You are missing the point of Marlina's statements. She is saying on the grand scale opinions will come and go. Do you want an example?

I think you're missing my point. I am asking her if rape is inherently immoral or not based upon her opinion. I don't need to continue talking about her original point =p

[LucidStrike]

Marlina wrote...

Collider wrote...

You don't need to say those things are not right or wrong, even if you believe morals to be subjective. Don't you have your own opinions?

I have my own (subjective) opinions, but they're ultimately irrelevant. They're only passing feelings. To me, stuff just happens, and people react accordingly. There are no inherent moral values to any actions. That is my belief, anyway.

Sounds like existential nihilism. I'm also an existential nihilist. However, it also sounds like moral nihilism, which I reject.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:43 .

[Chained_Creator]

Ooh, ooh, can I do the "If nihilism is true, I am God" argument? Please, oh, please, can I?  :happy:

[Marlina]

Collider wrote...

Really? How about rape? I'm not talking about objectivity, but you don't think rape is inherently immoral (as your opinion)?

Actually, I contemplated using that as an example instead of theft, but I hesitated, as I thought people might get offended and I don't intend to start a flame war.
You may not talk about objectivity, but I am. Subjective stuff is just pointless to talk about. It's like "I LIKE CARROTS!" and "NOOOOO, CARROTS TASTE BAD!" Neither position is right, carrots don't taste inherently bad or good, people just think either way. What I think (read: FEEL) is irrelevant. 

[Collider]

Marlina wrote...

Collider wrote...

Really? How about rape? I'm not talking about objectivity, but you don't think rape is inherently immoral (as your opinion)?

Actually, I contemplated using that as an example instead of theft, but I hesitated, as I thought people might get offended and I don't intend to start a flame war.
You may not talk about objectivity, but I am. Subjective stuff is just pointless to talk about. It's like "I LIKE CARROTS!" and "NOOOOO, CARROTS TASTE BAD!" Neither position is right, carrots don't taste inherently bad or good, people just think either way. What I think (read: FEEL) is irrelevant. 

It's not pointless, IMO. Often fruitless, but not pointless. It is healthy to have differnt view points to consider. Opinions are obviously not objective, but we don't function only on bare objectivity. We aren't omniscient, we don't have all the facts.

For the record, I am a nihilist as well - upon reading the definition.
But I do think that certain actions are generally immoral, as my
opinion.

Modifié par Collider, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:46 .

[Marlina]

Collider wrote...

I think you're missing my point. I am asking her if rape is inherently immoral or not based upon her opinion. I don't need to continue talking about her original point =p

Oh, going off-topic, are we? 
WELL, FINE! BRING IT ON!  
Yeah, I think rape is really uncool. What's your point? 

[Nashkital]

I would hope anyone who enters a debate would know that information Marlina! If someone truly believes something no amount of wind spitting is going to change their beliefs.

However the debate allows all parties to say how they feel in a friendly manner, something I am thankful for actually! Even if I disagree with someones opinion I still respect them.

[ShadowAldrius]

General Balls wrote...

You see what you want to see, I suppose. I'm not going to argue with you on that point.

"If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and
recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when
they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory."
- Kreia

While quoting Kreia is great and all... so few of the Mass Effect decisions have to do with handing things out to people. It's usually about doing your job, living up to your responsibility. Bringing a criminal to justice, or resolving a situation through diplomacy (or a lack thereof). It's so very rarely about giving something to somebody. And being a paragon is only occasionally about being altruistic, and as far as the game's main storyline is concerned, it never is.

Though there is some irony in arguing with a nihilist using a Kreia quote.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think the formula will be much the same. The choices change a bit in the dialogs that follow and at best generate a side mission. There won't be dramatic changes to the course of the main story. That would be too expensive.

[Collider]

I generally dislike people adding the word "true." No true Christian, no true Muslim, no true nihilist...what exactly does it mean? What is the difference between a true (insert word here) and just a (insert word here)? People can have conviction about their beliefs but it is not necessarily invulnerable to eventually dissolving or imploding.

[DeathCultArm]

This is where the debates crack. Once opinions are thrown in there never a correct answer. Although I do want to read how rape is either justified or not.

[LucidStrike]

Marlina wrote...

Collider wrote...

Really? How about rape? I'm not talking about objectivity, but you don't think rape is inherently immoral (as your opinion)?

Actually, I contemplated using that as an example instead of theft, but I hesitated, as I thought people might get offended and I don't intend to start a flame war.
You may not talk about objectivity, but I am. Subjective stuff is just pointless to talk about. It's like "I LIKE CARROTS!" and "NOOOOO, CARROTS TASTE BAD!" Neither position is right, carrots don't taste inherently bad or good, people just think either way. What I think (read: FEEL) is irrelevant. 

This is why I reject moral nihilism. While I reject the sanctity of values, I don't reject values themselves. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Collider]

I'd like to see someone justify rape. That would be something to see, indeed. Without using implausible and extraordinary situations.
@deathcult: This debate was never objective in the first place. This is dealing with semantics, what entails as renegade and paragon.

Modifié par Collider, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:51 .

[Arrtis]

well salad irritates my throat and makes it hard for me to swallow even saliva so salad is bad.

well i bet you can pay someone to rape you and not press charges...if your able to trick yourself you dont want it? then is it okay? then afterwards you stop lying to yourself then move on?
would that make rape ok under those circumstances?

Modifié par Arrtis, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:55 .

[Marlina]

LucidStrike wrote...

 Sounds like existential nihilism. I'm also an existential nihilist. However, it also sounds like moral nihilism, which I reject.

Oh, don't worry! I operate in real life like any "normal" person! :happy: It's just that I can see that *objectively* there's no right or wrong. I will still ACT like there is though, in order to fit into society and, more importantly, to satisfy my own ego.

I mean, let's say I killed someone. The logic part of my brain would go "lol kk, no problem, I mean, no morals objectively exists anyways, right? :D" but then the emotional part of my brain would retaliate by making me feel horrible!  

So yeah, I think morals have a place in our society, we'd all die if we didn't have them. In fact, that's exactly WHY we have them. Evolution, basically. It's efficient to make us feel horrible when doing things that are ultimately detrimental to our species, like killing off other individuals and not cooperating and stuff like that.

[DeathCultArm]

The said debate has been done with defining renegade and paragon a while ago. And rape could be justified, but I won' do it due it, b/c of potential trolling accusations.