306 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintfill: The sin of Lust isn't a demonization of sex. It is a demonization of sexual obsession. Though, you may be all for sexual obsession - so there's that I guess.

Then that particular nuance needs to be made clear. Where's the Spirit of Healthy Sexual Expression?

Is that an emotion? There are Spirits of Love and Compassion and all other sorts of goodness out there.

[animedreamer]

JulianWellpit wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

Hunger = Gluttony, Desire = Lust, Rage = Wrath... they are still attributed to the same general principle, despair is not a sin. As I understand it a sin is a trait in which the individual displays a negative trait. So a person displaying despair as a primary trait doesn't fit along the lines of someone who is envious of everything his or her neighbors have, to the point of stealing or destroying said thing. Where as a person in despair is more of a hard luck case who needs help. They are very much intended as the sins of christian lure, their actions and general purpose as told to us by Anders is that, "each demon that embodies the flaws of man, their are good spirits that embody our virtues."

Actually, before the 7 Deadly Sins took the form we currently know, despair was part of the deadly sins. Read this ( the History section )

Ok I see what you're looking at but I'd still disagree with viewing Despair as a sin. Because in my mind, saying, "That person is bad because they're depressed, or sad." is wrong.

Modifié par animedreamer, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintfill: The sin of Lust isn't a demonization of sex. It is a demonization of sexual obsession. Though, you may be all for sexual obsession - so there's that I guess.

Then that particular nuance needs to be made clear. Where's the Spirit of Healthy Sexual Expression?

Is that an emotion? There are Spirits of Love and Compassion and all other sorts of goodness out there.

I....don't think so?

[Hellion Rex]

animedreamer wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

Hunger = Gluttony, Desire = Lust, Rage = Wrath... they are still attributed to the same general principle, despair is not a sin. As I understand it a sin is a trait in which the individual displays a negative trait. So a person displaying despair as a primary trait doesn't fit along the lines of someone who is envious of everything his or her neighbors have, to the point of stealing or destroying said thing. Where as a person in despair is more of a hard luck case who needs help. They are very much intended as the sins of christian lure, their actions and general purpose as told to us by Anders is that, "each demon that embodies the flaws of man, their are good spirits that embody our virtues."

Actually, before the 7 Deadly Sins took the form we currently know, despair was part of the deadly sins. Read this ( the History section )

Ok I see what you're looking at but I'd still disagree with viewing Despair as sin. Because in my mind, saying, "That person is bad because they're depressed, or sad." is wrong.

Piece of history, but the Catholic Church would not let anyone who committed suicide be buried in consecrated ground at all either.

[Kidd]

Han Shot First wrote...

Since the female desire demon already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or desire covered, if there were a male aspect, it should be the manifestation of force. The female desire demons appear to operate by seduction or manipulation to get what they desire. But lust and greed also drives people to rob, to steal, to murder, to rape. If there was a male aspect, it should be the physical manifestation of the more violent aspects of lust or desire. Hence a more bestial appearance.

I know you don't mean it that way, but I would imagine implementing male-looking desire demons in such a way would be rife with unfortunate implications.

[General TSAR]

Han Shot First wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not super thrilled by the idea of males being the living manifestation of violent rape.

Demons don't have genders and lust and greed are genderless. You're getting too caught up on the male/female thing. Are all women seductive and manipulative? Of course not. If no one mistakes the desire demon for being a representation of female desire (ignoring for a moment that desire isn't different for men and women), why would a male demon be mistaken as implying that men are more violent?

*If* a male desire demon were ever introduced by Bioware I would rather it was more bestial and grotesque than the female version, both because I would want it to serve some other purpose other than for players to ogle or for player characters to f--k, and because so far the desire demons haven't really covered all negative aspects of desire. The ones we've met are seductive and manipulative, but they aren't the only means of achieving something desired. Lust and greed has also driven people to violence. If another desire demon is introduced it should embody that aspect, regardless of whether the demon takes a male or female form. Also the violent aspects of desire don't just include rape but also thievery, robbery, and murder. The demon should be a manifestation of violent desire or obsession in general, not a specific crime like rape.

When you put it that way; it sounds awesome! I'm all for it. 

[Vulpe]

animedreamer wrote...

Ok I see what you're looking at but I'd still disagree with viewing Despair as a sin. Because in my mind, saying, "That person is bad because they're depressed, or sad." is wrong.

That's just a matter of personal preferences. As you, I don't see Despair as a sin, but it might be a way that leads to one of the 7 ( please don't ask me how. I'm to tired to think of an example and you can be sure that if I had one I would provide it ).

They do seem to follow this concepts when designing the demons, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see any despair demons. ( I think that they said something about it some time ago ). So we shouldn't be surprised if we see any new kind of demons that might resemble those old concepts or that are totally non-related to them.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[ZoliCs]

JulianWellpit wrote...

ZoliCs wrote...

There's only one female looking demon and you want to take that away as well?

No one is trying to take anything away. On the contrary, we are trying to add on what we already have.

Well let's say Desire demons have X amount of screenplay. Unless every time a female Desire demon appeares a male comes with her would mean that the female desire demon's screenplay is X/2 now.
There are other demons though with rather generic look, they could have the incubi look, like rage for example.

Modifié par ZoliCs, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:21 .

[Sibuya Sempai]

I think more variety's the way to go with this. The male desire demon is a good idea, as we haven't really seen a specifically male form to any demon yet. As I remember hunger, pride, rage, and sloth were more simply menacing than gender specific, but had voices that suggested male.. Justice was also the only prominent spirit we've seen, and his voice suggested male as well... so these same forms could be voiced by female voice talent. As @HanShotFirst mentioned, the vices these demons represent are not gender specific, so their forms likewise shouldn't be.

For anyone keeping track, the "7 deadly sins" is a decidedly Catholic distinction, but appropriate as long as people don't devolve into a theological shouting match. Using that as a reference, what we've seen so far are: Desire (lust), Hunger (gluttony), Pride (...pride), Rage (wrath), Sloth (...sloth), and Justice (temperance). Which means, if we used that as a guideline, we still have yet to see the demons of Avarice and Envy, and the spirits of Wisdom, Charity, Diligence, Mercy, Kindness, and Humility. It might've been a spirit of charity that Wynne had joined with, but we never saw the spirit on its own, only the effect it had through her.

Virtue is no more gender specific than Vice, so there's just as much potential to present their forms as male, female, neutral, or combined.

[Hellion Rex]

Sibuya Sempai wrote...

I think more variety's the way to go with this. The male desire demon is a good idea, as we haven't really seen a specifically male form to any demon yet. As I remember hunger, pride, rage, and sloth were more simply menacing than gender specific, but had voices that suggested male.. Justice was also the only prominent spirit we've seen, and his voice suggested male as well... so these same forms could be voiced by female voice talent. As @HanShotFirst mentioned, the vices these demons represent are not gender specific, so their forms likewise shouldn't be.

For anyone keeping track, the "7 deadly sins" is a decidedly Catholic distinction, but appropriate as long as people don't devolve into a theological shouting match. Using that as a reference, what we've seen so far are: Desire (lust), Hunger (gluttony), Pride (...pride), Rage (wrath), Sloth (...sloth), and Justice (temperance). Which means, if we used that as a guideline, we still have yet to see the demons of Avarice and Envy, and the spirits of Wisdom, Charity, Diligence, Mercy, Kindness, and Humility. It might've been a spirit of charity that Wynne had joined with, but we never saw the spirit on its own, only the effect it had through her.

Virtue is no more gender specific than Vice, so there's just as much potential to present their forms as male, female, neutral, or combined.

Wynne said her spirit was one of Faith.

[Vulpe]

ZoliCs wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

ZoliCs wrote...

There's only one female looking demon and you want to take that away as well?

No one is trying to take anything away. On the contrary, we are trying to add on what we already have.

Well let's say Desire demons have X amount of screenplay. Unless every time a female Desire demon appeares a male comes with her would mean that the female desire demon's screenplay is X/2 now.
There are other demons though with rather generic look, they could have the incubi look, like rage for example.

Don't forget that The Veil is now caput and is safe to say that we'll be seeing demons more often  ( I'm tempted to say that we'll be seeing them as we saw the darkspawn in DA:O, but if they don't add something more to them, it could get a little tiring. ) . So you'll be geting your share of Desire Demons.

Now put yourself in the place of the players that might feel unconfortable always seeing their character beeing seduced by a female looking Desire Demon.

Let's take the straight female part of the community as an example. How would you feel if in the previous DA games the Desire Demon looked like a half-naked purple horned man that kept rubing himself and hited on your straight character ? ( and even if you might not feel unconfortable about this, you can be sure that there would have been some guys that would feel like this) I think I can safely say that this is the way some of them feel about the current Desire Demon.

So beside the fact that it would add a little more variety ( that might come in handy in DA:I because of The Veil tear and the increased amount of demons per square kilometer ) it would be the right thing to do considering that now they have extra time and extra resources.

This is my personal opinion. If you or anyone reading this comment begs to differ that's you right and your opinion and it will be heard as long as you formulate it in a civilized and non-offensive manner.

EDIT

eluvianix wrote...

Sibuya Sempai wrote...

I think more variety's the way to go with this. The male desire demon is a good idea, as we haven't really seen a specifically male form to any demon yet. As I remember hunger, pride, rage, and sloth were more simply menacing than gender specific, but had voices that suggested male.. Justice was also the only prominent spirit we've seen, and his voice suggested male as well... so these same forms could be voiced by female voice talent. As @HanShotFirst mentioned, the vices these demons represent are not gender specific, so their forms likewise shouldn't be.

For anyone keeping track, the "7 deadly sins" is a decidedly Catholic distinction, but appropriate as long as people don't devolve into a theological shouting match. Using that as a reference, what we've seen so far are: Desire (lust), Hunger (gluttony), Pride (...pride), Rage (wrath), Sloth (...sloth), and Justice (temperance). Which means, if we used that as a guideline, we still have yet to see the demons of Avarice and Envy, and the spirits of Wisdom, Charity, Diligence, Mercy, Kindness, and Humility. It might've been a spirit of charity that Wynne had joined with, but we never saw the spirit on its own, only the effect it had through her.

Virtue is no more gender specific than Vice, so there's just as much potential to present their forms as male, female, neutral, or combined.

Wynne said her spirit was one of Faith. 

I think that beside the information we have about the Seven Deadly Sins and The Seven Virtues ( I recommend  reading the History section for the sins and the introduction before the History section regarding the virtues - some of the concepts like Despair and Faith are mentioned, but not included in the final forms ) we could also use as a reference "The Divine Comedy" - more precisely the repartisation of the levels presented in Inferno and Paradiso ).

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:44 .

[Thibax]

Desire demons for everyone, male and female.
I want all

[Sibuya Sempai]

eluvianix wrote...

Sibuya Sempai wrote...

It might've been a spirit of charity that Wynne had joined with, but we never saw the spirit on its own, only the effect it had through her.

Virtue is no more gender specific than Vice, so there's just as much potential to present their forms as male, female, neutral, or combined.

Wynne said her spirit was one of Faith.

Regardless, we haven't seen her spirit physically manifest. With the veil torn, it could have any number of potential appearances.

[Sibuya Sempai]

JulianWellpit wrote...
I think that beside the information we have about the Seven Deadly Sins and The Seven Virtues ( I recommend also reading the History section for the sins and the introduction before the History section regarding the virues - some of the concepts like Despair and Faith are mentioned, but not included in the final forms ) we could use as a reference "The Divine Comedy" - more precisely the repartisation of the levels presented in Inferno and Paradiso ).

The seven deadly sins, and seven divine virtues are concepts whereas Dante's Commedia is a work of prose, and can be more limiting than expansive. It's pretty much established that demons embody vice, and spirits embody virtue. What Thedosians recognize as virtue and vice could align similarly with our own concepts, but not necessarily an exact fit. Thedas is only one continent, and it's not exclusively Andrastian just as North America (for example) is not exclusively Christian. We could very well see incarnations of Despair/Faith, or Cowardice/Honor and as we explore more of Thedas, it'd be great to see that kind of variety.

On that note.. with the veil torn, there could be a good opportunity to face off against soldiers of Fen'Harel pouring out from the Fade.

[Nefla]

I do wish (unrealistically) that there was more variety in the desire demons. It would be cool to have both male and female since they are obviously presented sexually and are trying to use their "feminine wiles" to try and help seduce you into the deal. I have no desire towards my own gender at all, and seeing another woman feeling up her ****** at me makes me uncomfortable and unwilling to consider any deals.

It would be amazing (and not ever happen) if either the game popped out a male or female demon depending on the gender your character has previously flirted with (or of their LI) OR random gender shows up and if you respond negatively they morph genders and say "is this better?" Something like that.

I would also love if the demon didn't take a sexual shape at all but instead appeared as your dead loved one saying "I'm alive" or the Empress making you a noble, the king of Orzammar abolishing the caste system, etc...(never gonna happen I know but a girl can dream)

[Sibuya Sempai]

I like your ideas @Nefla ...even if they do fall into the realm of impractical for production. Basing the form on previous choices or even our Keep scenarios would help with the immersion factor. "What [others] may say with irony, I say with conviction.": Keep dreaming, girl!

[AutumnWitch]

Its my understanding the "desire" that a Desire Demon produces is not particularly related to the physical appearance of the actual demon but the inner desires of the subject and the inherent "powers" of the desire demon. Perhaps each person perceives the demon differently or perhaps this is just a instance where the being has a "female" appearance and that is their nature.

But what is wrong with having a magical creature that is only "female" in appearance? I have seen this question a lot and sometimes I think its a veiled complaint that there is something that is powerful, beautiful and dangerous that just happens to only be female in appearance like somehow its "unfair" that there isn't a male version. What's wrong with having a entity that is feminine only in nature? What does it hurt? Why should there be a male version?

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA and I see people all the time wanting to take that away from them? I don't know where I am going with this but its makes me sad to think that one of the few things in DA that can be categorized as uniquely "female" needs to have a "maleness" forced upon it. Why not just let it be?

[Xilizhra]

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA

Wait, what? Branka, Petrice, Meredith, Marethari, Hadriana... there seem to plenty.

Not that I disagree with the spirit of most of your post, but that.

[Icy Magebane]

@AutumnWitch - I get why that type of situation might frustrating/annoying, but that's not really the point of this idea... Nobody complains that Flemeth is a powerful female, that all high dragons are female, etc. I'm sure that some people do feel like what you described, but this isn't one of those cases.

Edit:  However, even if I don't think that description applies, I can understand why you wouldn't be happy about the removal of a powerful female character... that part does make sense.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 04:10 .

[Demx]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA

Wait, what? Branka, Petrice, Meredith, Marethari, Hadriana... there seem to plenty.

Not that I disagree with the spirit of most of your post, but that.

That reminds me. We need to fight another broodmother. I still have not seen a Qunari broodmother.

[Hellion Rex]

Siradix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA

Wait, what? Branka, Petrice, Meredith, Marethari, Hadriana... there seem to plenty.

Not that I disagree with the spirit of most of your post, but that.

That reminds me. We need to fight another broodmother. I still have not seen a Qunari broodmother.

Hardest boss fight yet. We reach her lair, a long cavern, her on one end, us on the other. And then she starts to birth her ogres. As we attempt to reach and slay her, she births more and more.

[Direwolf0294]

I don't understand why Desire Demons have to represent sex at all. They should be able to take many different forms and should appear in forms that best suit the situation.

If I desired power and a Desire Demon appeared before me looking like they do in the current games, I'd laugh her away. If she appeared before me clad in full plate armour and carrying a flamming sword I'd probably listen to what she had to say.

[Vulpe]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Its my understanding the "desire" that a Desire Demon produces is not particularly related to the physical appearance of the actual demon but the inner desires of the subject and the inherent "powers" of the desire demon. Perhaps each person perceives the demon differently or perhaps this is just a instance where the being has a "female" appearance and that is their nature.

But what is wrong with having a magical creature that is only "female" in appearance? I have seen this question a lot and sometimes I think its a veiled complaint that there is something that is powerful, beautiful and dangerous that just happens to only be female in appearance like somehow its "unfair" that there isn't a male version. What's wrong with having a entity that is feminine only in nature? What does it hurt? Why should there be a male version?

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA and I see people all the time wanting to take that away from them? I don't know where I am going with this but its makes me sad to think that one of the few things in DA that can be categorized as uniquely "female" needs to have a "maleness" forced upon it. Why not just let it be?

As you said, Desire Demons don't have genders like you and I. They just assume forms that might be considered as male or female ( And I want to make it clear for everyone.When I say that a Desire Demon is male of female, I am not saying that they identify whit that gender, I'm saying that they take an appearance that seems more male or female.Desire Demons, like all other demons in DA, are genderless.)

The wiki says that "Desire demons use the yearnings of the victims – lust, wealth, power – to their advantage. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes. As a result, many who become their prey never realize it. While desire demons may resort to an outright mind control, they seem to take greater pleasure in more subtle deceit ".

While that would mean that they would be able to assume more forms than the two we are currently discussing, the BW guys had approached the more carnal side of desire in representing them.

Now, while I understand your worries, I don't see them as dire as you.We have our share of strong and dangerous female characters in the games, books and comics. For example we have Branka and Marjolaine in DA:O and Meredith in DA2 (she's even the final boss ). We have Flemeth in for the entire DA universe ( even if I don't see her as a villan, I can't deny that she sends sometimes that vibe).Those are only 4 of them. Oh, and we have dragons. God, those ladies are hot-tempered .

There's nothing wrong with you request. It's fair and justified. It's just that, in my personnal opinion, by presenting Desire Demons only as female looking you kind of go against their manipulative and adaptive way of being, basically against their nature ( besides, they're not really ladies. ) 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 novembre 2013 - 12:50 .

[Nefla]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I don't understand why Desire Demons have to represent sex at all. They should be able to take many different forms and should appear in forms that best suit the situation.

If I desired power and a Desire Demon appeared before me looking like they do in the current games, I'd laugh her away. If she appeared before me clad in full plate armour and carrying a flamming sword I'd probably listen to what she had to say.

Agreed acompletely! The naked lady demons fondleing themselves are there as male fanservice I'm sure, rather than something that makes sense for all desires (men, power, freedom, wealth, etc...).

[esper]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Its my understanding the "desire" that a Desire Demon produces is not particularly related to the physical appearance of the actual demon but the inner desires of the subject and the inherent "powers" of the desire demon. Perhaps each person perceives the demon differently or perhaps this is just a instance where the being has a "female" appearance and that is their nature.

But what is wrong with having a magical creature that is only "female" in appearance? I have seen this question a lot and sometimes I think its a veiled complaint that there is something that is powerful, beautiful and dangerous that just happens to only be female in appearance like somehow its "unfair" that there isn't a male version. What's wrong with having a entity that is feminine only in nature? What does it hurt? Why should there be a male version?

I think the very reason desire demons stand out in DA is the fact that there is a complete lack of female villains/baddies whatever you want to call them in DA and I see people all the time wanting to take that away from them? I don't know where I am going with this but its makes me sad to think that one of the few things in DA that can be categorized as uniquely "female" needs to have a "maleness" forced upon it. Why not just let it be?

The desire demons needs a male counterpart, because demons don't have gender yet apparently all desire demons have decided that looking a hundred percent female is the way to tempt and allure all of Thedas.

It is fine if they only went for thing like promising power or wealth, but seduction is a very visual part of them, a part they obviously use it and thus should take into account those who lust for the male body.

And we are not in lack of female villains, da2 had three very obvious one. (Meridith, Tahrone, Grace) and even if we are remember that demons are genderless. Appart from their look they are not females, they are living in universe fanservice.