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[EmperorSahlertz]

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz - you're aware they've just changed the names for Gluttony, Lust and Wrath right?

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

Rage, Hunger and Desire are less fancy words for Wrath, Gluttony and Lust. They mean the exact same thing, you're just splitting hairs here.

Frankly, I think it's lame that Bioware cribbed from the concept of cardinal vices so transparently. And I take personal issue with any system that demonises sex and sexuality, and this is the most literal way they could have done it.

[animedreamer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

Hunger = Gluttony, Desire = Lust, Rage = Wrath... they are still attributed to the same general principle, despair is not a sin. As I understand it a sin is a trait in which the individual displays a negative trait. So a person displaying despair as a primary trait doesn't fit along the lines of someone who is envious of everything his or her neighbors have, to the point of stealing or destroying said thing. Where as a person in despair is more of a hard luck case who needs help. They are very much intended as the sins of christian lure, their actions and general purpose as told to us by Anders is that, "each demon that embodies the flaws of man, their are good spirits that embody our virtues."

Modifié par animedreamer, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:30 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintfill: The sin of Lust isn't a demonization of sex. It is a demonization of sexual obsession. Though, you may be all for sexual obsession - so there's that I guess.

----

I like the concept of the seven deadly sins - so I'd personally love to see Envy (Jealousy) and Greed (Avarice)

Though I would make them the seven major demon-types of the Fade with a million others as sub-categories.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hunger is not the same as gluttony. Desire is not the same as lust. Rage and Wrath however shares many similies I'll admit (I even think in some versions the sin is literally called Rage instead of Wrath).

But to get back to the first two.

Gluttony is the sin of overindulgence. That is not Hunger. Hunger is an actual need. It is created from the lack of sustenance. Gluttony is created from an overflow of sustenance. They both revovle around consumption but they are NOT the same.

Desire and Lust are not the same either. Lust is of a carnal nature and Desire is not (necessarily anyway). You could say that Lust is a form of Desire, and I would agree. However Desire is by nature far more nuanced than simple Lust. Desire is the sense of longing for something/someone else. Lust is simply the desire to copulate.

So I can agree that Rage is represented by the Seven Deadly SIns, but Desire and Hunger are not. The emotions that Desire encompasses are far more varied and complex than simple Lust. And Hunger have an entirely different motivation than gluttony.

[Han Shot First]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Does that mean you sympathise with those who do not appreciate naked female desire demons? Would you be for their exclusion?

I do sympathise with people who would feel the same as I. Just because we prefer different genders doesn't change anything.

As a straight male, I don't want to be forced to look at a naked male even if it is just a demon. In the same way I can understand if gays or straight females feel uncomfortable looking at a naked female. 

IMO if something like this were implemented I would rather it was more bestial or grotesque than 'sexy.' Let it be a physical manifestation of the darker aspects of desire, lust, or sexuality, rather than something for some players to ogle.

[Vulpe]

animedreamer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

The Sin wrote...

Bottom line is that Desire, Rage, Sloth, Pride, Despair...They are not sexually dimorphic. They are universal. So their designs should reflect that.

?? O_o that is not one of the 7 deadly sins, it really doesn't belong within the hierarchy. I heard fans trying to event it as a new demon before on another thread, but I'd BioWare keep to the originally trope than try and get and fanon.

Hunger and Desire aren't part of the seven dadly sins either. Technically Rage isn't either. Only Pride and Sloth. Demons are not intended as interpretations of the seven deadly sins, they do however have parallels to them. Demons are reflections of human emotion, specifically the negative ones. Therefore things like Despair, Hatred and Fear fits perfectly into the role of Demons.

Hunger = Gluttony, Desire = Lust, Rage = Wrath... they are still attributed to the same general principle, despair is not a sin. As I understand it a sin is a trait in which the individual displays a negative trait. So a person displaying despair as a primary trait doesn't fit along the lines of someone who is envious of everything his or her neighbors have, to the point of stealing or destroying said thing. Where as a person in despair is more of a hard luck case who needs help. They are very much intended as the sins of christian lure, their actions and general purpose as told to us by Anders is that, "each demon that embodies the flaws of man, their are good spirits that embody our virtues."

Actually, before the 7 Deadly Sins took the form we currently know, despair was part of the deadly sins. Read this ( the History section )

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: You're being too literal. Hunger is not always a "need" - it can be used to describe a feeling of emptiness... a feeling that must be filled.

I would have just used Gluttony - and I would be REAL happy to find out that Hunger is just an offshoot of greater Gluttony demons - but I really think you're making a distinction where one does not exist.

Lust isn't only sexual desire - though it is the "go to" example. Lusting after something is to possess an obsessive desire for something. It is not always sexual - and is not defined that way in many dictionaries.

[Han Shot First]

Since the female desire demon already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or desire covered, if there were a male aspect, it should be the manifestation of force. The female desire demons appear to operate by seduction or manipulation to get what they desire. But lust and greed also drives people to rob, to steal, to murder, to rape. If there was a male aspect, it should be the physical manifestation of the more violent aspects of lust or desire. Hence a more bestial appearance.

[EChatty]

This entire thread made me laugh. Some people expressed a desire to see the females of the game given equal treatment by adding in a male Desire Demon and others got up in arms about it, stating they didn't want to see a nearly-naked purple male in their game and didn't qualify it to include that they would sympathize with females in the same boat until prompted to do so.

Others then chime in and say it's unnecessary because all females find the female form beautiful and desirable too, so no need to give them an alluring male specimen.

My personal opinion is that if it were truly an intelligent desire demon then it (since it's not supposed to be one sex or the other) would know which form to take when it's going to try to tempt someone. That's what I'd like to see, a Desire Demon who appears as the PC's desire, whether it be gay, straight or bi. It won't happen that way, but it would be nice.

For the record, I'm in complete agreement that it's a huge turn-off when I see her standing (floating) there fondling herself. Makes me want to run her through rather than listen to what she might have to say.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz: You're being too literal. Hunger is not always a "need" - it can be used to describe a feeling of emptiness... a feeling that must be filled.

I would have just used Gluttony - and I would be REAL happy to find out that Hunger is just an offshoot of greater Gluttony demons - but I really think you're making a distinction where one does not exist.

Lust isn't only sexual desire - though it is the "go to" example. Lusting after something is to possess an obsessive desire for something. It is not always sexual - and is not defined that way in many dictionaries.

Hunger demons are literally only about the phsycial sensation of needing food. They are born from the feeling of hunger, not overindulgence.
The Desire Demon encompasses all the Sins of Excess (Gluttony, Greed, Lust). That is why the Desire demons is not Lust, since Lust is JUST carnal desire. There is nothing to interpret about Lust, it is intended as a sexual desire for another.
Incidentally the fact that Desire encompasses Gluttony, Greed and Lust, also means that Demons are not suppsoed to be perfect interpretations of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Sure, the demons draw a huge piece of their inspiration from these SIns, but they do not need to perfectly represent them. For instance there can be more than just 7 types of demons.

Honestly I don't see the point of this discussion, we already know that BioWare intend to introduce Despair, Hatred and Fear demons down the line.

[EChatty]

I'll qualify that to say, in a RP sense, and if I'm playing as male, he obviously wouldn't want to run her through.

[AlexanderCousland]

Han Shot First wrote...

Since the female desire demon already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or desire covered, if there were a male aspect, it should be the manifestation of force. The female desire demons appear to operate by seduction or manipulation to get what they desire. But lust and greed also drives people to rob, to steal, to murder, to rape. If there was a male aspect, it should be the physical manifestation of the more violent aspects of lust or desire. Hence a more bestial appearance.

So Male desire = Bestial violent creature? 

[ZoliCs]

There's only one female looking demon and you want to take that away as well?

[Han Shot First]

FreshIstay wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Since the female desire demon already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or desire covered, if there were a male aspect, it should be the manifestation of force. The female desire demons appear to operate by seduction or manipulation to get what they desire. But lust and greed also drives people to rob, to steal, to murder, to rape. If there was a male aspect, it should be the physical manifestation of the more violent aspects of lust or desire. Hence a more bestial appearance.

So Male desire = Bestial violent creature? 

No, I wasn't saying that. I was saying that if there were male and female desire demons, since the female already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or greed covered, the male version should cover the more violent aspects.

The male demon would be no more representative of male desire than the female demon is of female desire. Lust and greed are genderless, as are the desire demons technically.

[Vulpe]

Han Shot First wrote...

Since the female desire demon already has the seductive or manipulative aspects of lust or desire covered, if there were a male aspect, it should be the manifestation of force. The female desire demons appear to operate by seduction or manipulation to get what they desire. But lust and greed also drives people to rob, to steal, to murder, to rape. If there was a male aspect, it should be the physical manifestation of the more violent aspects of lust or desire. Hence a more bestial appearance.

Something like this 


 
or this ?

ZoliCs wrote...

There's only one female looking demon and you want to take that away as well?

No one is trying to take anything away. On the contrary, we are trying to add on what we already have.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:17 .

[Han Shot First]

Pretty much.

Either one of those concepts could work.

[Wulfram]

Maybe desire demons should tend to look less demonic, and more human (or elf/dwarf/Qunari as appropriate). Because the whole demony thing doesn't really help the seduction as far as I can see.

In which case it would probably be easer to have both genders.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Han Shot First wrote...

Pretty much.

Either one of those concepts could work.

 I agree.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintfill: The sin of Lust isn't a demonization of sex. It is a demonization of sexual obsession. Though, you may be all for sexual obsession - so there's that I guess.

Then that particular nuance needs to be made clear. Where's the Spirit of Healthy Sexual Expression?

[Plaintiff]

I'm not super thrilled by the idea of males being the living manifestation of violent rape.

[Han Shot First]

Plaintiff wrote...

 Where's the Spirit of Healthy Sexual Expression?

Isabela?

Wherever the winds take her.

[Vulpe]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not super thrilled by the idea of males being the living manifestation of violent rape.

I don't think that's what he refers to ( at least I hope not ). I think that he wants to say that while women are more seductive, subtle etc., men are a little more blunt and ... I can't find the words to express it so that it doesn't sound . Now, I know that is just a stereotype and there's no need to reminde me of that, but that's the way things are seen by some people.

[Han Shot First]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not super thrilled by the idea of males being the living manifestation of violent rape.

Demons don't have genders and lust and greed are genderless. You're getting too caught up on the male/female thing. Are all women seductive and manipulative? Of course not. If no one mistakes the desire demon for being a representation of female desire (ignoring for a moment that desire isn't different for men and women), why would a male demon be mistaken as implying that men are more violent?

*If* a male desire demon were ever introduced by Bioware I would rather it was more bestial and grotesque than the female version, both because I would want it to serve some other purpose other than for players to ogle or for player characters to f--k, and because so far the desire demons haven't really covered all negative aspects of desire. The ones we've met are seductive and manipulative, but they aren't the only means of achieving something desired. Lust and greed has also driven people to violence. If another desire demon is introduced it should embody that aspect, regardless of whether the demon takes a male or female form. Also the violent aspects of desire don't just include rape but also thievery, robbery, and murder. The demon should be a manifestation of violent desire or obsession in general, not a specific crime like rape.