150 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

To be honest - there was never going to be any idea that was ever going to be 'good'.

I think Drews was a bit more interesting - but I think it would have been the same kind of result with the backlash.

The worst part for the ending for me wasn't about the Reapers though, it was about the Dialogue, the Kid, the Illusive Man and the way it was all mishmashed together. If they'd actually looked good and hard at what was being said in the game and who was saying it - and then changed or cut a lot of it - I think it would have been much better - even with the current ideology of the ending.

[Deathsaurer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

They could have done a lot with dark energy aside from it being Reaper pollution I felt. With a name like Mass Effect and it being the centerpiece of just about every technology in the universe I kinda found it fitting to trying something in that direction. As far as the current form of it though I'm not too fond of the Dark Energy Plot.

I dunno man, the fundamental issue with this storyline is the moment it gets tied to the Reapers it turns into a massive derp because... you develope along the paths we desire and lol mass relays. At which point it sounds like they suscribe to Acme logic.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[spirosz]

Yeah, interesting is a better word. Good, I don't know - depends on the execution.

[ragtagfleet]

Linkenski wrote...

If the what-if scenario also includes the game being rushed and Drew locking himself up in a room with Casey to write it out, I think it would be better. I've read all of those foundation comics by Mac as well as the first issue of Redemption and I've taken note of which stages in ME3 and what characters were written by him, as well as what characters and plot-points Drew made (from those we know) in ME1+ME2. I have to say that I think Drew is definitely the smarter guy and the more creative mind from what I can tell. Just compare his writing in his novels to the writing by Mac in his comics. It's obviously like comparing apples to pear fruits but I think there's still decisive evidence that shows Drew is a better writer, both in terms of characterization, fluency in language and plot-writing.

The dark energy plot he revealed was a rough idea and like the "Synthetics vs. Organics" plot it would change shape over the course of writing ME3 so it would fit better to the rest they put in the game.

It's hard to compare the two plot ideas because undoubtedly ME3 in its entirety would've been so vastly different if Karpyshyn was on board for the whole game.

That's doubtful. A Lead Writer at Bioware simply does not have that much creative authority, according to  Dragon Age Lead Writer David Gaider:

"So the short of it is that, no, I don’t have final say on the plot of a game. The Writing team would be the first group to suggest what that plot might be, and we’d do that having received direction from above, but that proposal is going to go up the chain and then come back down with changes— and is going to need to incorporate desires from other parts of the team.So if someone pictures being Lead Writer as a scriptwriter or the person who dictates what the creative vision might be— then, no, that’s not the case. Not at BioWare, anyhow."

When it comes to making a game, the people in charge in of the project (Project Director and Lead Designer) have their own ideas about what the story and themes should be. If Drew Karpyshyn had been Lead Writer on ME3, he wouldn't have come up with the plot on his own; he would have pitched an idea after gettings some requirements from up the chain. One such requirement might have been "Synthetics vs Organics is a theme for this game." And then after pitching his idea, he would have had to make changes to it after getting feedback from the senior leadership on the project. Maybe he would have implemented Hudson's creative vision better than Mac Walters did, or maybe not. But he doesn't get to go off the reservation and implement his own vision. That's not his job.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Deathsaurer wrote...
I dunno man, the fundamental issue with this storyline is the moment it gets tied to the Reapers it turns into a massive derp because... you develope along the paths we desire and lol mass relays. At which point it sounds like they suscribe to Acme logic.

Only if you make the dark energy problem something dire to the entire galaxy. If I absolutely had to give the Reapers a reveal of motivations I would have played with the concept a bit.

For instance make the Reapers a post singularity civilization which became what they were through some very extreme cybernetic enhancements(starting out with biotic implants like our current cycle) which over the year cumulated in the Cuttlefish we know today. Their technology gave them power but it also left them with an obsession of constantly pushing their improvement until they reached a dead end and started stagnating, to fix this problem they created the cycle and lead other civilizations to follow their technological path looking for species more genetically adapt at manipulating element zero and dark matter in the hopes of getting more bang for their dark energy buck by incorporating the other species into their numbers. This could tie the dark energy loose ends as experiments run by the reapers and explain the collectors various genetic experiments on other species. This could also make the imposed stagnation the Reapers brought on the galaxy with the cycle a bit more thematic as they're imposing a dead end of sorts on the rest of the galaxy. After defeating the Reapers the final choice could come down to chosing to continue to use Mass Effect fields and risking following a similar path, or destroying them and the Reapers all together in the hopes of building your own new future.

Or something to that effect, you really don't have to stick to the dark energy is going to destroy the galaxy concept.

[Iakus]

Impossible to say if it would have been better. All we really have is the kernel of what might have developed into an idea fro an ending.

[Cobalt2113]

I don't think so. They dismissed that idea because it was too "space magicky". Given how much people complain about space magic as it is I'd say that was probably a good idea.

[FlamingBoy]

not enough information

[Deathsaurer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Only if you make the dark energy problem something dire to the entire galaxy. If I absolutely had to give the Reapers a reveal of motivations I would have played with the concept a bit.

For instance make the Reapers a post singularity civilization which became what they were through some very extreme cybernetic enhancements(starting out with biotic implants like our current cycle) which over the year cumulated in the Cuttlefish we know today. Their technology gave them power but it also left them with an obsession of constantly pushing their improvement until they reached a dead end and started stagnating, to fix this problem they created the cycle and lead other civilizations to follow their technological path looking for species more genetically adapt at manipulating element zero and dark matter in the hopes of getting more bang for their dark energy buck by incorporating the other species into their numbers. This could tie the dark energy loose ends as experiments run by the reapers and explain the collectors various genetic experiments on other species. This could also make the imposed stagnation the Reapers brought on the galaxy with the cycle a bit more thematic as they're imposing a dead end of sorts on the rest of the galaxy. After defeating the Reapers the final choice could come down to chosing to continue to use Mass Effect fields and risking following a similar path, or destroying them and the Reapers all together in the hopes of building your own new future.

Or something to that effect, you really don't have to stick to the dark energy is going to destroy the galaxy concept.

Except that brushes Haestrom aside, you know that planet that is held up as the holy grail of why the DE plot would be better. Yeah... You either have to have the Reapers causing a problem they aren't aware of which is absurd given their tech level or they're trying to fix it in the most moronic way possible. That plotline, as it was being considered and set up for if used, was awful.

[Omega Torsk]

If it would've had adequate build-up throughout ME3, maybe.

As it stands though, it would've been just as random as the "Pimp My AI" ending...

[GreyLycanTrope]

Deathsaurer wrote...
Except that brushes Haestrom aside, you know that planet that is held up as the holy grail of why the DE plot would be better. Yeah... You either have to have the Reapers causing a problem they aren't aware of which is absurd given their tech level or they're trying to fix it in the most moronic way possible. That plotline, as it was being considered and set up for if used, was awful.

Not that absurd if you consider they sleep for 50K years at a time, think of Haestrom as a run away science project that they plan on taking care of when they actually get back to the galaxy. It can serve as evidence of their minions tinkering to try and solve the Reapers' problem, and not as a hint of a coming doomsday event.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:57 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
This was one case where explaining why the reapers were even in the galaxy was a mistake. When you start explaining things, sometimes you open a can of worms. The only way to re-can them is to get a bigger can.

So it's a Wile E. Coyote kind of thing? As long as we don't realize ME always sucked we don't go splat?

Just play ME1 & ME2 like "Arnold Movie RPGs"; uninstall "Arrival", and forget about ME3. Done. We don't go "Splat!"

Since it was never explained exactly why they were building a human reaper except that it was their chosen species, and since it was explained earlier that they needed to come in via the Citadel, you can now consider the human reaper as Plan B to open the Citadel again with the help of the Geth, and you just blew it up. It's OVER. I mean who watches Alien 3? We watch Aliens, right?

[maaaad365]

I personally think that it would have provided a better ending/game than what we had. After ME2 I was expecting that sort of plot in ME3.

Remember that Harbinger tells Shepard that the humans are the perfect specimens for a Reaper, a concept lost/contradicted in ME3 where almost all the species are harvested without any discrimination.

I don't understand why there is so much hate for Karpyshyn, his scenario made a lot of sense. The Reapers were TRYING to find a solution to the dark energy problem. The Galaxy was a big experiment for them.

The idea of harvesting ( killing ) everyone because eventually they will be killed by AI's is more unbelievable to me than the dark energy experiment.

Modifié par maaaad365, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Let's face it-

The Reaper plot was a mess from the very beginning. It would've been hard to come up with a good resolution no matter the poor bastard who was assigned to do it.

It could only ever be a backdrop. You can never fight 2 km tall ships with 6' tall soldiers, and a few dreadnoughts, especially when they have virtually no weaknesses and you have writers saying that this cycle was unusual because the reapers never took losses in previous cycles which meant they had 20,000 of those things. Which meant a star child ending. That's why Walters threw his hands up in the air at the end and gave us RGB. It was either that or a "Reaper Off Button." That was the only way. We would have had to build 20000 Destiny Ascensions to match them.  3 years was not enough time.

[maaaad365]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Let's face it-

The Reaper plot was a mess from the very beginning. It would've been hard to come up with a good resolution no matter the poor bastard who was assigned to do it.

It could only ever be a backdrop. You can never fight 2 km tall ships with 6' tall soldiers, and a few dreadnoughts, especially when they have virtually no weaknesses and you have writers saying that this cycle was unusual because the reapers never took losses in previous cycles which meant they had 20,000 of those things. Which meant a star child ending. That's why Walters threw his hands up in the air at the end and gave us RGB. It was either that or a "Reaper Off Button." That was the only way. We would have had to build 20000 Destiny Ascensions to match them.  3 years was not enough time.

The crucible could be used as a GIANT SPACE CANNON to tear up the Reapers one by one. That's what I was expecting in the end: Put you HUD on and target Harbinger.

After destroying the fleet of Reapers near Earth , the Reapers had to retreat. That is a better idea and has virtually no plot holes. Sending energy all across the galaxy , energy that  affects the Reapers/and all other beings with space magic is not possible in the phisical world.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

maaaad365 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Let's face it-

The Reaper plot was a mess from the very beginning. It would've been hard to come up with a good resolution no matter the poor bastard who was assigned to do it.

It could only ever be a backdrop. You can never fight 2 km tall ships with 6' tall soldiers, and a few dreadnoughts, especially when they have virtually no weaknesses and you have writers saying that this cycle was unusual because the reapers never took losses in previous cycles which meant they had 20,000 of those things. Which meant a star child ending. That's why Walters threw his hands up in the air at the end and gave us RGB. It was either that or a "Reaper Off Button." That was the only way. We would have had to build 20000 Destiny Ascensions to match them.  3 years was not enough time.

The crucible could be used as a GIANT SPACE CANNON to tear up the Reapers one by one. That's what I was expecting in the end: Put you HUD on and target Harbinger.

After destroying the fleet of Reapers near Earth , the Reapers had to retreat. That is a better idea and has virtually no plot holes. Sending energy all across the galaxy , energy that  affects the Reapers/and all other beings with space magic is not possible in the phisical world.

They all land on your planet.

[maaaad365]

You can still shoot them on Earth and you have a HUUGE tactical advantage against them in the long term . They eventually have to give up. The story of the crucible is the same as the Manhattan project in human history. Once the nukes were launched everyone gave up the war.

I still don't understand why they didn't go with this obvious ending. Obvious endings worked perfect in ME1 & 2.

[Deathsaurer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Not that absurd if you consider
they sleep for 50K years at a time, think of Haestrom as a run away
science project that they plan on taking care of when they actually get
back to the galaxy. It can serve as evidence of their minions tinkering
to try and solve the Reapers' problem, and not as a hint of a coming
doomsday event.

Any not blatantly stupid race would stop and say you know maybe this isn't such a good idea after a star
gets screwed up. Granted we've met a couple too dumb to live races but I'd rather not have laughably incompetent villains.

I don't have a problem with them doing something with it in the future but it can't be connected to the Reapers because derpyness ensues.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
It could only ever be a backdrop. You can never fight 2 km tall ships with 6' tall soldiers, and a few dreadnoughts, especially when they have virtually no weaknesses and you have writers saying that this cycle was unusual because the reapers never took losses in previous cycles which meant they had 20,000 of those things. Which meant a star child ending. That's why Walters threw his hands up in the air at the end and gave us RGB. It was either that or a "Reaper Off Button." That was the only way. We would have had to build 20000 Destiny Ascensions to match them.  3 years was not enough time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, sounds good on paper then you sit there and go wait how does a ground soldier fight a dreadnought he can't get inside of? They're in the wrong genre. BTW the early cycles didn't happen as fast as they do now. The relay network was created to speed up the time between cycles for maximum efficiency.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[Legion of 1337]

Ok now I must know:

For everyone who said "no" and never elaborated, why is a Gainax Ending (unexplainable and confusing nonsense - what we got) preferable to a Lovecraft Ending (unexplainable and confusing nonsense on purpose for a reason)?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

maaaad365 wrote...

You can still shoot them on Earth and you have a HUUGE tactical advantage against them in the long term . They eventually have to give up. The story of the crucible is the same as the Manhattan project in human history. Once the nukes were launched everyone gave up the war.

I still don't understand why they didn't go with this obvious ending. Obvious endings worked perfect in ME1 & 2.

Of course earth would be a cinder when you finished. Or they could simply FTL out of the system. That wasn't all of them. You have to chase them around the galaxy with one big canon. Plus reaper tech indoctrinates by QE. 

You've got to remember. Just understand that the premise for the reapers sucked horse sh** in the first place and you don't go splat. The reaper plot could at best be a back drop. It could never come to a resolution. Why? Because all the flaws come into play. The reapers needed serious nerfing. 

[maaaad365]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

You can still shoot them on Earth and you have a HUUGE tactical advantage against them in the long term . They eventually have to give up. The story of the crucible is the same as the Manhattan project in human history. Once the nukes were launched everyone gave up the war.

I still don't understand why they didn't go with this obvious ending. Obvious endings worked perfect in ME1 & 2.

Of course earth would be a cinder when you finished. Or they could simply FTL out of the system. That wasn't all of them. You have to chase them around the galaxy with one big canon. Plus reaper tech indoctrinates by QE. 

You've got to remember. Just understand that the premise for the reapers sucked horse sh** in the first place and you don't go splat. The reaper plot could at best be a back drop. It could never come to a resolution. Why? Because all the flaws come into play. The reapers needed serious nerfing. 

The only plot hole that I see in my scenario is that you don't defeat them right away. The war can go for hudreds of years, but they eventually have to surrender.

I agree that they needed a serious nerf.

A better scenario that I can think of is that the Crucible is the solution to the Dark Energy problem. Once you activate it they cease to attack you because you found the solution to their problem. 

[Deathsaurer]

maaaad365 wrote...

The only plot hole that I see in my scenario is that you don't defeat them right away. The war can go for hudreds of years, but they eventually have to surrender.

Not really... The real problem with trying to come up with a conventional way to beat them is they know how to build better WMD but thus far have chosen not to. Pushed into a corner do you think that would hold true? Imagine them setting the relay network to overload Arrival style in retribution.

[SwobyJ]

To OP: ...maybe?

I mean, ...maybe? Haha, I don't have a real answer here.

..except, I can say that I'm annoyed the Tali's Recruit mission and a couple sidemissions didn't really seem to lead anywhere..

If anything, I'd like Dark Energy to play a part in a future game. Just to... not leave things hanging.

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

If anything, I'd like Dark Energy to play a part in a future game. Just to... not leave things hanging.

Just... make it something that started poping up recently, like in the past few hundred years, so the Reapers have no connection to it.