150 réponses à ce sujet

[Kataphrut94]

The whole Dark Energy thing was rubbish. For a start, there's no personal stake like there is with organic-synthetic conflict. It's just a choice of killing the humans or risking killing everyone. Whoop-dee-doo.

Why can't it just have been about a timeshare thing? The Reapers kill the advanced species so the younger species can have their time in the sun without being inducted into the Prothean Empire or whatever? Then, once the pond-scum have grown opposable digits and had a go on the galactic playground, kill them as well to make room for the next lot. Easy-peasy.

[AlanC9]

Not that bad, but I don't see how total extermination of advanced races is necessary or desirable. Why not send them back to the stone age?

Though of course there would have been nothing preventing Bio from retconning the total extermination thing away, except maybe the human-Reaper. There could be a whole prothean planet somewhere in the relay network we haven't seen, for example.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Legion of 1337]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The whole Dark Energy thing was rubbish. For a start, there's no personal stake like there is with organic-synthetic conflict. It's just a choice of killing the humans or risking killing everyone. Whoop-dee-doo.

Why can't it just have been about a timeshare thing? The Reapers kill the advanced species so the younger species can have their time in the sun without being inducted into the Prothean Empire or whatever? Then, once the pond-scum have grown opposable digits and had a go on the galactic playground, kill them as well to make room for the next lot. Easy-peasy.

Assuming they can write it correctly, could it not have been a philosophically engaging ending? I know Mass Effect is largely a character drama since the plot jumped off a cliff after ME1, but with good writing it could work, no?

[Linkenski]

I'd say the dark-matter ending is so much more relevant to modern issues than Synthetics rivaling organics, simply because it's been discussed so many times in other Sci-fis which makes it boring, but also because a conflict that's constant in all 3 Mass Effect, is the different races trying to make room for each other in the same galaxy. There's always some sort of struggle between the races and I think the dark matter concept would play into this since it's like the Mass Effect version of global warming.

(OBS: I've always seen it like this in the MEU (In a nutshell): Humanity = Americans, Salarians = Japanese/chinese/korean, Asari = mix of people globally, Quarians = Europeans/middle-eastern, Turians = stereotypical pro-military. Haven't completely thought it through, just a little observation)

I know the global warming debate has settled down in the past few years but 2012 would've been a good time to make societal commentary of it, and in the Mass Effect universe the dark matter theme would be a good way to demonstrate the power struggle between races trying to dominate with tech... dunno, maybe the Salarians would start somehow using dark matter (remember element Zero was also dark matter) to increase production of weaponry to the Reaper war or biotic amplifiers or whatever.

Somehow the mass production or popularity in manufacuring stuff with dark-matter and maybe some sort of dark matter reverse-engineered from Mass Relays would increase the rate at which the galaxy would start crashing.

In many ways the theme just wouldn't come short like the Organics Rivaling Synthetics which was hard to demonstrate with an era of the universe where the Geth were acting in self-defence and AIs learned to get better along with organics.

I obviously remember a lot of lore badly, but I hope you get the idea and I hope they aren't too silly.

Modifié par Linkenski, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Reorte]

It would have the advantage of remaining entirely in the realm of "made up for Mass Effect" part of the universe, so wouldn't fall foul of completely screwing up with issues which could in theory apply to the real world some day.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But it still doesn't explain the reapers and how one stupid 2 km long human reaper is going to make it all better. It was stupid. I hope it stays dead and buried.

And not every movie coming out of "Hollywood" has a happy ending. Whatever gave people that idea?

[Reorte]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But it still doesn't explain the reapers and how one stupid 2 km long human reaper is going to make it all better. It was stupid. I hope it stays dead and buried.

Neither does the plot we got; arguably it works even less with what we've got. So yes, it's bad, but I'm not convinced that it was a worse idea.

And not every movie coming out of "Hollywood" has a happy ending. Whatever gave people that idea?

It works well enough for people who substitute stereotypes for thought (and although it's not there in everyt film the "stupidly cheesy happy ending" isn't exactly rare in Hollywood).

[StarcloudSWG]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

So I've been lurking around here sometimes but haven't posted barely at all for a while. If this is old news forgive me but it occurred to me recently.

I used to harp on Drew Karpshin's original idea of the Reapers being some kind of space Cthulu trying to stop Dark Energy from causing the heat death of the universe or whatever. 

Drew himself said it was a half-formed idea at best, and hadn't even developed beyond a few speculative notes. He's also said that basing an ending on the "dark energy eating the universe" idea would have been much worse than what they finally did.

So. NO. Drew's idea would not have been better, because it made for a lousy story.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Redbelle wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I get that it was "just a draft" and "could have been improved on," but I find the D.E.E. concept plot utterly boring.


Eezo will kill us all (sometime way down the line)? Le yawn.

The message was supposed to be one of disarmament?

Keep using DE systems and you'll cause the Big Crunch?

And the above doesn't care?

Sounds like someone mixed the threat of nukes with an environmental spin on the story.

What are you babbling??

[Reorte]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

So. NO. Drew's idea would not have been better, because it made for a lousy story.

As did what we got, so even if it would've made a lousy story that doesn't mean it might not have been better.

[mass perfection]

His ideas supported depopulation. His ending was sending the message that humanity needs to die for the good of the universe.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I would like to think it would have better, mostly because it would have dealt with the actual 'mass effect' a little more.

In my opinion, the best Reaper revelation would have been not to have a Reaper revelation. Instead there would be little breadcrumbs that suggest what might have been the Reaper's goals. For example, Shepard might receive a random message from a Quarian science team that found something like, "The build up of dark energy in the galaxy strongly correlates with the Reaper cycles." Basically have a variety of vague hints.

[maaaad365]

I'm starting to realize that the best ending is the Chuck Norris ending.

Modifié par maaaad365, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:52 .

[Vicious]

Space Cthulhu is fine. Them causing dark energy and trying to save everyone while simultaneously fix it is kinda dumb, though not much worse than what we got.

The best part about the Reapers was that they were 'beyond your comprehension.' like a human is to an ant. When they tossed it out the window and explained it in 30 seconds in ME3, it just felt a bit weak and left people aggravated because the job of writing the plot had obviously changed hands several times.

In the end, I felt that the necessity they felt (however misplaced it was) to explain the Reapers, the only thing that was in all 3 games was that you had to fight synthetics at some point. Legion himself was part of the critical path and people only sold him to Cerberus for the lulz. So they built it around that, even though it turned very silly  that they would "ALWAYS COME INTO CONFLICT" being that the relationship between Joker and EDI, as well as EDI and Shepard was a big part of ME2 and ME3.

In my opinion, the best Reaper revelation would have been not to have a Reaper revelation

indeed.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:10 .

[AlanC9]

Vicious wrote...
The best part about the Reapers was that they were 'beyond your comprehension.' like a human is to an ant. 

It's a pity more of you lot didn't stand up for this position after ME2 was released, when we were discussing what the human Reaper might mean. We spent a lot of time discussing what the final reveal of the Reapers' origin and purpose would be. Whether there actually should be any such reveal in the first place....not so much.

I'm not sure I've ever heard anything from a dev sounding like they ever considered leaving the Reapers mysterious. Worked for me, since the only thing I like about mysteries is seeing them solved.

[Vicious]

It's a pity more of you lot didn't stand up for this position

"you lot"? lol.

[Reorte]

Vicious wrote...

The best part about the Reapers was that they were 'beyond your comprehension.' like a human is to an ant. When they tossed it out the window and explained it in 30 seconds in ME3, it just felt a bit weak and left people aggravated because the job of writing the plot had obviously changed hands several times.

No mystery ever survives the reveal. However I can't get any satisfaction with a story that's written with an antogonist doing essentially random or illogical stuff and having it passed off as "beyond our comprehension." For that to work I need to be persuaded that there actually is a good reason beyond human understanding, which is just about impossible to pull off when the authors are human.

[AlanC9]

Vicious wrote...

It's a pity more of you lot didn't stand up for this position

"you lot"? lol.

Hey, it's less typing than "the people who believed that the Reapers should have been left as mysterious fantasy space creatures rather than explained the way sci-fi machine intelligneces typically are."

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

If the final choice had really come down to (a) destroy the Reapers and potentially doom the galaxy or ( allow humans to be harvested to save the galaxy, that might have been even *more* frustrating in terms of forcing me into an overly simplistic and contrived dilemma.

Also, I can at least understand why the Catalyst created the Reapers and the cycles, even though I think its logic is based upon a completely ungrounded and amoral assumption. The Catalyst does seem to place some value on the knowledge and experiences of organic civilizations, so the Reapers are a way to prevent any civilization from progressing to the point that (in its view) is likely to lead to complete extermination by synthetics, while still preserving some aspect of their lives and histories. All civilizations get their "turn" for a while before being removed to make way for the next up-and-coming group of species.

I'm not sure why an impending dark energy catastrophe requires the creation of Reapers, though. If the idea was to fuse everyone's minds together to solve the problem, what's the point of absorbing them into living spaceships as opposed to just creating some sort of geth-style, software-based collective intelligence? Why continue the process through these forced harvests rather than at least attempting to communicate directly with other species about the dark energy threat first? Why not invest the resources spent on waging wars of galactic genocide and creating Reapers into straightforward research to address dark energy?

It seems awfully roundabout at best and needlessly bloody at worst - it would be a bit like if we cancelled all research on clean, environmentally friendly energy on Earth, spent all the money on sending crews into space to see if we can find a source of unlimited clean energy on Mars somewhere, and decided to power the spaceships by burning ourselves alive.

[Nitrocuban]

An ending of such a big thing like ME1-3 deserves better than what we got before EC, but it was more the how and less the what imho.

I can see what BW wanted the ending to be: a conclusion to our epic journey that leaves players satisfied but also has room for speculations and deep thoughts about what the ending really means. All the pieces of forshadowing fitting perfctly together now that we see the whole thing.
But it didn't work, mostly because ME3 was rushed, to a small degree cause the basic theme was weak, finally cause the presentation of the ending was so underwhelming.

Anyone who has played Bioshoch Infinite might agree that this ending has all ME3 should have had.

[FlyingSquirrel]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I would like to think it would have better, mostly because it would have dealt with the actual 'mass effect' a little more.

In my opinion, the best Reaper revelation would have been not to have a Reaper revelation. Instead there would be little breadcrumbs that suggest what might have been the Reaper's goals. For example, Shepard might receive a random message from a Quarian science team that found something like, "The build up of dark energy in the galaxy strongly correlates with the Reaper cycles." Basically have a variety of vague hints.

I think the door to that was closed once the Reapers started talking. That is, Sovereign and then Harbinger establish that we aren't simply dealing with some kind of automated process gone haywire and that the Reapers are in fact living beings with consciousness in the way that we understand those concepts. They indoctrinate people, but they also communicate directly on occasion, and Sovereign at least understands what Shepard means when (s)he asks why the Reapers are doing this (even if it doesn't or can't answer).

If the Reapers had never communicated directly or otherwise manifested conscious thought in the way we understand it, then leaving them a mystery might have worked, and might have made them seem more like some twisted elemental force than a group of living beings. But once we know that they *are* living beings, a bottom line of "it's a mystery" can quickly give way to much more problematic notions ("they're just evil," "our enemies only understand force," etc.).

[Deathsaurer]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

I'm not sure why an impending dark energy catastrophe requires the creation of Reapers, though. If the idea was to fuse everyone's minds together to solve the problem, what's the point of absorbing them into living spaceships as opposed to just creating some sort of geth-style, software-based collective intelligence? Why continue the process through these forced harvests rather than at least attempting to communicate directly with other species about the dark energy threat first?

I think this criticism can also be levied against the current endings. Why not upload everyone harvested into a database in the Dark Space relay and make the Reapers drones controlled by the hivemind? That way you're not risking them in the harvest. If you believe it is a legitimate problem why not try to educate the younger species about the dangers of creating sapient computers without considering what their wishes may be?

[Argentoid]

Nitrocuban wrote...

An ending of such a big thing like ME1-3 deserves better than what we got before EC, but it was more the how and less the what imho.

I can see what BW wanted the ending to be: a conclusion to our epic journey that leaves players satisfied but also has room for speculations and deep thoughts about what the ending really means. All the pieces of forshadowing fitting perfctly together now that we see the whole thing.
But it didn't work, mostly because ME3 was rushed, to a small degree cause the basic theme was weak, finally cause the presentation of the ending was so underwhelming.

Anyone who has played Bioshoch Infinite might agree that this ending has all ME3 should have had.

If Bioshock Infinite was better written I would agree. But it's not, it is as badly written as it can get. 

Modifié par Argentoid, 12 novembre 2013 - 09:08 .

[tonnactus]

maaaad365 wrote...


Remember that Harbinger tells Shepard that the humans are the perfect specimens for a Reaper, a concept lost/contradicted in ME3 where almost all the species are harvested without any discrimination.

Thank god they removed the humans are special nonsense.

Modifié par tonnactus, 12 novembre 2013 - 09:41 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Deathsaurer wrote...
I think this criticism can also be levied against the current endings. Why not upload everyone harvested into a database in the Dark Space relay and make the Reapers drones controlled by the hivemind? That way you're not risking them in the harvest. If you believe it is a legitimate problem why not try to educate the younger species about the dangers of creating sapient computers without considering what their wishes may be?

That's a good point about the database, though given that all this originated from the Catalyst misunderstanding its directive, you can rationalize that it simply viewed the Leviathans as the "model" for advanced life forms. As for educating younger species, the Catalyst seems to want to let them develop without direct intervention - the Leviathan who talks to Shepard refers to much of galactic history being a sort of experiment by the Catalyst, IIRC.

I suppose it's hard to critique the dark energy idea too much without knowing the details that they'd have eventually used to develop it. My impression of what little we've heard about it was that some species voluntarily undertook the process of turning themselves into Reapers. It's difficult to imagine a species consisting of individuals with values similar to those of others in the ME universe doing that, or even thinking in the first place that it was the best solution to the dark energy threat. But maybe we'd have found out instead that it started with the creation of something similar to the Catalyst, only with a mandate to stop the dark energy threat rather than to prevent synthetics from exterminating all organics.

Similarly, if the final choice for the dark energy scenario was really just "stop the Reapers and risk the entire galaxy" or "allow the harvest of humanity to save everyone else," I think that would have been profoundly unsatisfying, even moreso than the endings we got. But maybe there'd have been more to it than that if Bioware had actually gone that route.