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[The Xand]

HiroVoid wrote...

The Xand wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

.....Leliana
looks like every other female in Dragon Age because there was only one
body model. And how do they not look like they could fight? It's not
like they were both heaving around two-handed swords.

Nobody
in Dragon Age could realistically heave those two handed swords around.
Was hilarious watching my Dalish elf swing his around like it was the
****ing Titanic. Leliana just looked...not convincing. They could have
beefed her up a bit or made her less annoying or...just anything really.
She sucked. I liked Aveline and Merrill from DA2 so much better.
Aveline esp since she was a convincing strong woman, in body and spirit.
Leliana and Isabella are just titilating treats to romance, coming in
French and pirate flavours.

If that's the case then,
wouldn't that just simply be a case of disliking the characters rather
than saying they don't look like they can fight? Dragon Age certainly
isn't meant to be some realism simulator. As far as character-wise
goes, I do admit I like Leliana's conflict on how she's trying to decide
if she wants to go the more chantry 'helping people' persona or going
back to her bard persona.

It's like 6am and I'm sleepy. Didn't mean anything by how she was built given that there's only six body types in the whole of Dragon age and those are tied to race and gender although they could do with some more normal looking people. Even the elderly had rippling six packs, firm perky breasts and an arse to die for. Leliana just never came across as esp tough, like any of the assassin chicks in Kill Bill. Never really got that sense of her having a hard edge to her. Suppose the French accent didn't help much. If they'd made her sound like Annah from Planescape now!

[HiroVoid]

celestial_emperor wrote...

Yes, a good reason to give women pause for appearing in any video game is showing them what happens in a video game forum if you say "Anita Sarkeesian" or "Jennifer Hepler."

Why should it?  What a bunch of people complain in a forum shouldn't affect why they shouldn't take on a job opportunity unless it negatively affects their future prospects.

[Dave of Canada]

celestial_emperor wrote...

Yes, a good reason to give women pause for appearing in any video game is showing them what happens in a video game forum if you say "Anita Sarkeesian" or "Jennifer Hepler."

People recieve hate and death threats on the internet*? No way!

*not gender exclusive

[HiroVoid]

The Xand wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

The Xand wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

.....Leliana
looks like every other female in Dragon Age because there was only one
body model. And how do they not look like they could fight? It's not
like they were both heaving around two-handed swords.

Nobody
in Dragon Age could realistically heave those two handed swords around.
Was hilarious watching my Dalish elf swing his around like it was the
****ing Titanic. Leliana just looked...not convincing. They could have
beefed her up a bit or made her less annoying or...just anything really.
She sucked. I liked Aveline and Merrill from DA2 so much better.
Aveline esp since she was a convincing strong woman, in body and spirit.
Leliana and Isabella are just titilating treats to romance, coming in
French and pirate flavours.

If that's the case then,
wouldn't that just simply be a case of disliking the characters rather
than saying they don't look like they can fight? Dragon Age certainly
isn't meant to be some realism simulator. As far as character-wise
goes, I do admit I like Leliana's conflict on how she's trying to decide
if she wants to go the more chantry 'helping people' persona or going
back to her bard persona.

It's like 6am and I'm sleepy. Didn't mean anything by how she was built given that there's only six body types in the whole of Dragon age and those are tied to race and gender although they could do with some more normal looking people. Even the elderly had rippling six packs, firm perky breasts and an arse to die for. Leliana just never came across as esp tough, like any of the assassin chicks in Kill Bill. Never really got that sense of her having a hard edge to her. Suppose the French accent didn't help much. If they'd made her sound like Annah from Planescape now!

Both Annah and Leliana are character archetypes of existing fiction though.  Leliana is a professonal assassin similar to the Zevran mold.  They're not what you would usually consider front-line fighers.  They slip poison, knives in the back, and other methods usually before going to combat (which is excepted in the video game since almost all of it is front-line combat).  In front-line combat, she and Zevran are made for using either knives or a bow which requires agility or focus which is what they're good at.

Annah's the tough street chick.  She doesn't seduce people and stab them in the back.  She just stabs them from the front.  She doesn't do the whole disguise, take part in high society, etc. that Leliana was involved in.

[BackdoorPaco]

The Hierophant wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

The Xand wrote...
He's sexist because he's an unrealistic and disproportionately muscular example of masculinity. God help us all should videogames ever include idealistic stereotypes of either gender.

No he's not, you're thinking of Chris Redfield.

Leave Chris alone! It's not his fault that he became addicted to steroids after Wesker emasculated him.

But did he really have to punch that poor boulder the way he did?

Meh it was payback. He knows what the boulder's friends tried to do to Leon back in Spain.

Chris just has his special way of working out his issues with inanimate objects.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Not enough photos. I'm disappointed in this thread.

[Fredward]

The Xand wrote...
Aye and they're all the same. Quirky nerdy girl fantasy. The Supernatural one irritated me esp, since they just shoehorned her and made darn tooting clear we know just how much she likes games and how quirky she is. As annoying as that purple haired girl from Scott Pilgrim Vs the World.

Except that they're not. The character she played in Dollhouse seems especially unquirky. The character she played in House was in an episode that had cancer in the title, she might still have played quirky but I doubt it. Her appeal isn't strictly found in her "nerdy girl" persona, she's talented. The main draw on Tallis for me was the insight she gave into the Qun. I kept hoping they'd go into that further. Alas.

[Star fury]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

She's played characters in House, Dollhouse, Eureka, Monk, Buffy and Supernatural. And those are just the popular ones. And not even mentioning the movies. Some of them share the dorky girl persona, some do not. None of which have much to do with Tallis btw, cept the quirkiness. She didn't mention video games even once!

She played tiny roles in more or less big series. And I never even heard about other series that her fans always bring to portray Day as a "celebrity".

[celestial_emperor]

[/quote]

Im sorry, I must have missed the point in history when Media asked me and all other Males how we want to be represented. Damn, I'm so mad I wasn't part of that consensus. 

[/quote]

So you don't appreciate being represented as wealthier, more visible, judged by your actions above all other aspects of your being, whether being gendered, racial or  ethnic background, etc. Don't forget! You are so incredibly revelant to every story that no two members of another gender ever have a conversation that isn't about you?

This has been the dominant representation of men (mostly by and for men) throughout most of civilization. The fact that in 2013, we aren't creative enough to have an equal amount of stories where that isn't the case is rather depressing.

It's really problematic, and considering we are on this forum because Bioware does employ incredibly creative people who can and generally do tell really amazing stories and still have women who have pretty lousy experiences is why I started this thread in the first place.

[The Xand]

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Thank you! To add to that I'd like to point out that girls being girly isn't a male construct. I don't care if girls wear makeup or what they're really wearing, but their own magazines are full of crap like that. Relationship advice, sex, fashion, gossip and so on. Even female forums are scarily like that. Is it still sexist if it's women that are enforcing the stereotypes of their gender?

Yes, assuming it's for the wrong reasons. But I've heard men unleash hell numerous times on women who don't fit certain standards of attractiveness... for instance, on this very site, Jennifer Hepler.

What are the wrong reasons?  Every person should have the freedom (within the law and limits) to do and wear what they feel and want to.  A person shouldn't feel obligated not to do something simply because it's considered stereotypical of their social group.

That's just what I've been arguing but everyone seems to think I'm the Anti-Feminist made incarnate. I just think girls should be allowed to be what they want to be and to like what they want without feeling pressured by men to change. I mean, my mum's a single working staff nurse who's raised both me and my brother by herself while keeping us fed, clothed and in a very nice house and holding down a job. My granny who has always doted on me and protected me from since I was very young also managed to keep her family of three kids together and looked after when her husband died young (she being also a staff nurse). Both of those women are made of iron and every bit as capable as men, if not moreso. I just don't see why they should have to feel bad about having been nurses or liking girly things now and again.

[Fredward]

Star fury wrote...
She played tiny roles in more or less big series. And I never even heard about other series that her fans always bring to portray Day as a "celebrity".

Point?

[sandalisthemaker]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Not enough photos. I'm disappointed in this thread.

5/10 thread. ATM.

[Fredward]

The Xand wrote...
That's just what I've been arguing but everyone seems to think I'm the Anti-Feminist made incarnate. I just think girls should be allowed to be what they want to be and to like what they want without feeling pressured by men to change. I mean, my mum's a single working staff nurse who's raised both me and my brother by herself while keeping us fed, clothed and in a very nice house and holding down a job. My granny who has always doted on me and protected me from since I was very young also managed to keep her family of three kids together and looked after when her husband died young (she being also a staff nurse). Both of those women are made of iron and every bit as capable as men, if not moreso. I just don't see why they should have to feel bad about having been nurses or liking girly things now and again.

Huh. I actually agree with you on this. In some ways feminism has created a female identity every bit as restrictive as the one created by the patriarchy just like... opposite.

[celestial_emperor]

I don't think anyone should have to put up with death threats for appearing in a video game or commenting about the video game industry. I don't care if they're a really bad actress or if they're absolutely wrong about video games.

Our favored form of entertainment shouldn't be a shooting gallery for the emotionally unhealthy.

[HiroVoid]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The Xand wrote...
That's just what I've been arguing but everyone seems to think I'm the Anti-Feminist made incarnate. I just think girls should be allowed to be what they want to be and to like what they want without feeling pressured by men to change. I mean, my mum's a single working staff nurse who's raised both me and my brother by herself while keeping us fed, clothed and in a very nice house and holding down a job. My granny who has always doted on me and protected me from since I was very young also managed to keep her family of three kids together and looked after when her husband died young (she being also a staff nurse). Both of those women are made of iron and every bit as capable as men, if not moreso. I just don't see why they should have to feel bad about having been nurses or liking girly things now and again.

Huh. I actually agree with you on this. In some ways feminism has created a female identity every bit as restrictive as the one created by the patriarchy just like... opposite.

This is what I was getting at with one of my previous posts about how people should have the freedom to be who they want to be.  I don't think there was anyone (maybe 1 or 2 people) who were really getting on that it's wrong for a female to act girly.  As for what others were pointing out, it IS true that media helps conform to what people expect in a certain gender though I'd argue that's not a patriarchy since most parents and women will also agree with what is expected from females just as there are certain expectations for what males are supposed to be like and what they can or cannot do.  Of course, this will always be true and happen in some capacity.

[The Hierophant]

BackdoorPaco wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

The Xand wrote...
He's sexist because he's an unrealistic and disproportionately muscular example of masculinity. God help us all should videogames ever include idealistic stereotypes of either gender.

No he's not, you're thinking of Chris Redfield.

Leave Chris alone! It's not his fault that he became addicted to steroids after Wesker emasculated him.

But did he really have to punch that poor boulder the way he did?

Meh it was payback. He knows what the boulder's friends tried to do to Leon back in Spain.

Chris just has his special way of working out his issues with inanimate objects.

Yeah they need to hold an intervention for him, but who knows what inanimate object he'll attack next.

[Star fury]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Star fury wrote...
She played tiny roles in more or less big series. And I never even heard about other series that her fans always bring to portray Day as a "celebrity".

Point?

Try to re-read it again.

[HiroVoid]

celestial_emperor wrote...

I don't think anyone should have to put up with death threats for appearing in a video game or commenting about the video game industry. I don't care if they're a really bad actress or if they're absolutely wrong about video games.

Our favored form of entertainment shouldn't be a shooting gallery for the emotionally unhealthy.

Unfortunately, that's a reality in basically every industry especially on the internet for just about everyone.  There was that one male game dev for that one indie game that quit recently over this though he would often troll his readership as well which never helps the situation.  Then, you have the guy in the upcoming batman role who's being flamed because people don't think he'll do a good job.  Again, unfortunately, this is the internet where people flame people because they think it's no big deal or because it's fun.

[The Xand]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The Xand wrote...
That's just what I've been arguing but everyone seems to think I'm the Anti-Feminist made incarnate. I just think girls should be allowed to be what they want to be and to like what they want without feeling pressured by men to change. I mean, my mum's a single working staff nurse who's raised both me and my brother by herself while keeping us fed, clothed and in a very nice house and holding down a job. My granny who has always doted on me and protected me from since I was very young also managed to keep her family of three kids together and looked after when her husband died young (she being also a staff nurse). Both of those women are made of iron and every bit as capable as men, if not moreso. I just don't see why they should have to feel bad about having been nurses or liking girly things now and again.

Huh. I actually agree with you on this. In some ways feminism has created a female identity every bit as restrictive as the one created by the patriarchy just like... opposite.

That macho poppycock annoys me as well though. Having lacked any real father figure in my life I've turned out...not effeminate, but not some lairy football loving jack the lad either. Just me. That said I do love just switching off and watching an action movie now and again. I like things that are delightfully over the top. Dragonball Z, Pacific Rim, Watchmen, 300, Lord of the Rings. Girlfriend hates all of those despite my best encouragements sadly but sure does love her some terrible romcoms. We take turns watching films the other likes.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Diana Allers is a well-written character. It's the voice acting that failed.

Tallis has plenty of fans - I don't see her as more hated than any other squadmate (such as Anders).

Miranda is highly successful as a character because the voice acting is superb.

[The Xand]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Diana Allers is a well-written character. It's the voice acting that failed.

Tallis has plenty of fans - I don't see her as more hated than any other squadmate (such as Anders).

Miranda is highly successful as a character because the voice acting is superb.

I like Anders. Xanders. Xandraste.

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

*peeks head in*

Isn't it funny how every female protagonist looking good is sexist, but every male protagonist looking good isn't?

Yeah, no. Many male protagonists would in fact be considered "ugly" by our modern, Western standard of beauty, which, even for men, advocates slim, toned physiques with no body hair.

That's like saying Danny Trejo and Johnny Depp must be regarded as equally attractive because they both star in movies.

I've heard quite a few females say that Danny Trejo is hot.

You could've at least chose a bettah example. 

But I'll play along with you and bobo.

I'll call your GoW person and raise you a Kat. (from Halo Reach)

I'm not actually claiming that Danny Trejo is ugly, but you'd know that if you really read my post.

The point is that your assumption that male protagonists all designed to be "sexy" is fallacious. Male protagonists aren't expected to be beautiful, while female protagonists are. If you want a better indicator of how western media constructs male beauty, you should look at the men featured in clothing and underwear ads, because they are designed to be "beautiful", while the male protagonists of films and videogames are designed to be "tough", with beauty being at best a secondary concern.

With most female protagonists, it's possible, extremely easy, in fact, to point to how their sexual characteristics have been emphasized in the same way that the sexual characteristics of female models are. I could go for the low-hanging fruit of Bayonetta, but instead, here's the cover of Remember Me.




Nilin is dressed in tight, revealing clothing, and is posed in such a way as to emphasize her sexual characteristics. Compare her posture to this underwear model:



Lots of similarities there. Especially the way the hips are emphasized.

On the other hand, here's a few videogame covers featuring male protagonists:







They're all poised for combat, and their expressions are concealed, which creates an aura of intimidation

And here's what you get when you run a google search for "male underwear model":







Submissive, non-threatening stances that emphasize male sexual characteristics. They're all leaning backwards, to communicate a sense of being relaxed.

Nothing at all like the the men on video game covers. Because the men on video game covers and film posters are designed to appeal to an assumed audience of heterosexual men. "Look at this guy! Isn't he cool? Don't you wish you could be him?"

Male underwear models, conversely, are designed to appeal to heterosexual women, who are assumed to be buying the clothing items for their husbands and boyfriends. "Look at this guy! Isn't he sexy? If you buy this underwear for your partner, he could be sexy too!"

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:42 .