169 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

I tend to agree with the "Don't, just make the best game possible" crowd. DAO had some pretty goofy marketing ideas (Marilyn Manson, really?) but that didn't hurt it because at heart it was just a damned good game. It had it's flaws (the class system for one, is too MMO derivative, graphics are a bit dated) but when the core product is good enough it didn't matter.

I do find it funny that there's almost a double standard when it comes to aiming at particular fanbases. Anything seen as aiming at the dreaded Call of Duty crowd is dragged over hot coals, but a lot of other stuff is given a free pass.

I'd just have to say "stop trying to appeal". You can put in elements appealing to particular fanbases without feeling like you're clobbering everyone over the head with it. Want more reactive combat? Sure! Just kind of restrain it so that it's not flying all over the place. Want to appeal to gay/bi romances? Great! Just don't make it so that it's blatantly so "Hello, I am your gay love interest. Did I mention I'm gay? Because I'm gay. Unless you're the opposite gender, in which case I am no longer gay." like we've seen with DA2 or ME3.

[Eleinehmm]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I tend to agree with the "Don't, just make the best game possible" crowd. DAO had some pretty goofy marketing ideas (Marilyn Manson, really?) but that didn't hurt it because at heart it was just a damned good game.

Oh, I remeber the Manson trailer, I was rather :blink:ed by the whole expirence, I don't quite sure if it was after or before the game was pushed back for another half a year or so.....

As for the general topic, I would say allow people to create characters they want to and be honest about the features the game will have.

[rupok93]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

I tend to agree with the "Don't, just make the best game possible" crowd. DAO had some pretty goofy marketing ideas (Marilyn Manson, really?) but that didn't hurt it because at heart it was just a damned good game. It had it's flaws (the class system for one, is too MMO derivative, graphics are a bit dated) but when the core product is good enough it didn't matter.

I do find it funny that there's almost a double standard when it comes to aiming at particular fanbases. Anything seen as aiming at the dreaded Call of Duty crowd is dragged over hot coals, but a lot of other stuff is given a free pass.

I'd just have to say "stop trying to appeal". You can put in elements appealing to particular fanbases without feeling like you're clobbering everyone over the head with it. Want more reactive combat? Sure! Just kind of restrain it so that it's not flying all over the place. Want to appeal to gay/bi romances? Great! Just don't make it so that it's blatantly so "Hello, I am your gay love interest. Did I mention I'm gay? Because I'm gay. Unless you're the opposite gender, in which case I am no longer gay." like we've seen with DA2 or ME3.

Marketing the game to appeal to a bigger audience doesnt equal changing the game for a bigger audience. I am all for using marketing to dumb down what the game actually is to attract the bro crowd. changing the game to attract them is a whole different thing. 

[Little Princess Peach]

Bribe everyone with sugar free cookies and decafe late oh the horror of it all

but in all It depends what kind of game I'm making if it's for kids I would select an age group of 10+ and as for marketing kids love colorful monsters mostly, or things that explode

[Maria Caliban]

N7recruit wrote...

 To Clarify I don't mean "We must Make the Most Streamlined Game Ever to get some of that sweet, sweet GTA/Cod/Skryim Money making PIE!!!:happy:"

The average person believes they are above the average so what they like must also be above average, which means appealing to the average is lowering standards.

If appealing to the average gamers meant a game I liked got better, that would imply that my tastes are actually worse than the average. Most people will find that thought unacceptable.

[filetemo]

rupok93 wrote...

 I am all for using marketing to dumb down what the game actually is to attract the bro crowd. changing the game to attract them is a whole different thing. 

that would make the targeted demographic feel cheated, they would play 5 minutes of the game and never play anything dao related or bioware related never again.
Besides, calling non RPG fans, "the bro crowd" is misleading. There's RTS fans that are not RPG fans, and I wouldn't call them "bro crowd"

Heck, there's even RPG fans that, believe it or not, are not Bioware fans. Those must be targeted too.

Modifié par filetemo, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:57 .

[Mercedes-Benz]

I wouldn't. This concept of "appealing to a wider audience" is the reason why BioWare's last couple of games have been sub-par.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

N7recruit wrote...

 To Clarify I don't mean "We must Make the Most Streamlined Game Ever to get some of that sweet, sweet GTA/Cod/Skryim Money making PIE!!!:happy:"

The average person believes they are above the average so what they like must also be above average, which means appealing to the average is lowering standards.

If appealing to the average gamers meant a game I liked got better, that would imply that my tastes are actually worse than the average. Most people will find that thought unacceptable.

True.
Basically people are dumb vain and competitive creatures, who shouldn't be put in charge of anything ever.

[filetemo]

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

I wouldn't.

If it was a direct order from the EA execs, that's not an option.

[N7recruit]

Maria Caliban wrote...

N7recruit wrote...

 To Clarify I don't mean "We must Make the Most Streamlined Game Ever to get some of that sweet, sweet GTA/Cod/Skryim Money making PIE!!!:happy:"

The average person believes they are above the average so what they like must also be above average, which means appealing to the average is lowering standards.

If appealing to the average gamers meant a game I liked got better, that would imply that my tastes are actually worse than the average. Most people will find that thought unacceptable.

Not really the point I was getting at. I wasn't trying to sound all snobby or look down on other Genras at all, just joking about how silly it would be to design a Fantacy RPG with the sole motivation of making money like GTA, CoD or Skyrim.  

But if some features from mainstream games, like an alive open world or fun mini games Make their way into the DA series while making  it better  I'd welcome them. 

BTW GTA 5 is Good, Ghosts sucks & Skyrim is "An aids riddled pile of ******" IMO 

[The Xand]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

poppycock. The modern era has seen gems of a far superior quality than anything in the bygone days of yore. I loved Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 as much as the next man, but the Withcer 1 and 2, Morrowind, Skyrim, Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Dragon Age all surpassed them.

It's not even like cutting corners a la Dragon Age 2 is a new thing because there was a metric fudgeton of content pulled from the Baldur's Gate games.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[Mercedes-Benz]

filetemo wrote...

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

I wouldn't.

If it was a direct order from the EA execs, that's not an option.

If that were to happen, I would resign from BioWare and start my own video game developing company, and use Kickstarter to finance the making of quality RPG games.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

poppycock. The modern era has seen gems of a far superior quality than anything in the bygone days of yore. I loved Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 as much as the next man, but the Withcer 1 and 2, Morrowind, Skyrim, Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Dragon Age all surpassed them.

It's not even like cutting corners a la Dragon Age 2 is a new thing because there was a metric fudgeton of content pulled from the Baldur's Gate games.

How dare you besmirch the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia!! The days of the ast are obviously vastly superior to whatever is created these days. Back when I was a young boy I had to walk 50 miles to paly downa t the arcade!! Obviosuly a better time in the history of mankidn!! Yadda yadda yadda...
Seriously though, don't try and reason with these types, they are so stuck up their own nostalgic ****s, that they refuse to ever admit that a new game could beat their old favorite.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

filetemo wrote...

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

I wouldn't.

If it was a direct order from the EA execs, that's not an option.

If that were to happen, I would resign from BioWare and start my own video game developing company, and use Kickstarter to finance the making of quality RPG games.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The average person believes they are above the average so what they like must also be above average, which means appealing to the average is lowering standards. 

If appealing to the average gamers meant a game I liked got better, that would imply that my tastes are actually worse than the average. Most people will find that thought unacceptable.

If that were to happen, I would resign from BioWare and start my own video game developing company, and use Kickstarter to finance the making of quality RPG games.

Yep. Still true..... 

[Paul E Dangerously]

The Xand wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

poppycock. The modern era has seen gems of a far superior quality than anything in the bygone days of yore. I loved Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 as much as the next man, but the Withcer 1 and 2, Morrowind, Skyrim, Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Dragon Age all surpassed them.

It's not even like cutting corners a la Dragon Age 2 is a new thing because there was a metric fudgeton of content pulled from the Baldur's Gate games.

I'll give you Witcher 1/2, because while I didn't personally enjoy them, they're still very technically well made games. Morrowind's from 2002, though, and it does eclipse Oblivion and Skyrim in a lot of aspects. Namely story and freedom, which are a big thing in an open world RPG. I'd have a hard time ranking DAO over BG1 or 2 - I love it, but I'm not quite sure that much.

You also left Fallout 1 and 2 out of that list, and I'll arguably say those surpass the modern installments.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[bEVEsthda]

I'd say what generally passes as the "wider audience", first of all isn't so wide, secondly already have all the tiresome ("awesome") combat non-stop, Boss-whittling button mashers they could ever play, thirdly don't really have all that much money to spend on games anyway. Then I'd go and try to make DA:I an interesting game where there are interesting things going on.

[someguy1231]

If you try to appeal to everyone, in the end you won't appeal to anyone.

GTA V succeeded because it took GTA IV, fixed the things that fans complained about (lack of color, no countryside, etc), and expanded the things that fans liked (heist missions). Same for games like XCOM: Enemy Unknown and Starcraft II. They didn't try to BS their fans with pathetic attempts at "casualization" or changing the game's genre.

This doesn't just apply to games, but to any medium of entertainment. As much as I loathe things like Michael Bay films and the Twilight franchise, you have to give them credit for knowing who their audience is.

Game developers need to accept that no game can appeal to everyone, and choose which audience they want to appeal to and focus all their efforts on that.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Skyrim was better then morrowind imo, because I didn't uninstall the game and find something else to play after playing skyrim at the very least. Being that these games had technologically limits to what could be generated, graphics that were extremely cheap compared to today and only passed because they were high of the line years ago, and a relative lack of programing experts to make managing the items, missions, dialogue, story, map, etc, all added up to it being a very difficult curve to actually get into the series, and thus less fans.

Your core audience being important is about as much a lie as there can be, because at the end of the day they're small. They are too small to carry the company even if they were happy, and you'd need at least triple their numbers in order to even break even on a game. Focusing on those other 2/3's of people who weren't born and raised on rpg's your company made is the only way to actually survive and be competitive. Otherwise you'll need to just accept making a low cost, low quality, short and tiny dlc type game and charging less then 9 dollars for it if you hope to make even an ounce of profit from the venture.

That's just the market we live in, you either go big and hook as many customers as possible, even if the aging and shrinking old core doesn't like it. Because believe it or not the core isn't going to be the core for long, not until new gamers come in and replace them. Otherwise you can only rely on an ever diminishing and dwindling core audience whose numbers drop year after year just because they find other interest and move on with their lives like any normal person does. Someone doesn't remain a core fan forever or probably even a lot of years, eventually they move on, and if you didn't get more people to replace that core your screwed.

Do not become kurt schilling and just trust a fanbase who might not be there to catch your back and give you the numbers you need to make your game come close to breaking even.

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Skyrim was better then morrowind imo, because I didn't uninstall the game and find something else to play after playing skyrim at the very least. Being that these games had technologically limits to what could be generated, graphics that were extremely cheap compared to today and only passed because they were high of the line years ago, and a relative lack of programing experts to make managing the items, missions, dialogue, story, map, etc, all added up to it being a very difficult curve to actually get into the series, and thus less fans.

Your core audience being important is about as much a lie as there can be, because at the end of the day they're small. They are too small to carry the company even if they were happy, and you'd need at least triple their numbers in order to even break even on a game. Focusing on those other 2/3's of people who weren't born and raised on rpg's your company made is the only way to actually survive and be competitive. Otherwise you'll need to just accept making a low cost, low quality, short and tiny dlc type game and charging less then 9 dollars for it if you hope to make even an ounce of profit from the venture.

That's just the market we live in, you either go big and hook as many customers as possible, even if the aging and shrinking old core doesn't like it. Because believe it or not the core isn't going to be the core for long, not until new gamers come in and replace them. Otherwise you can only rely on an ever diminishing and dwindling core audience whose numbers drop year after year just because they find other interest and move on with their lives like any normal person does. Someone doesn't remain a core fan forever or probably even a lot of years, eventually they move on, and if you didn't get more people to replace that core your screwed.

Do not become kurt schilling and just trust a fanbase who might not be there to catch your back and give you the numbers you need to make your game come close to breaking even.

This must be the first time we've ever been in full agreement

There seems to be this prevailing mindset that somehow by appealing to more people it's "diluting" the quality of a game, rather than improving it. By that argument democracy is fundamentally flawed and should be scrapped asap. Companies do need to make money but innovation is equally important, and doling out the same game over and over because the fans hate change is a recipe of doom. I suppose that thought also stems from the fact that people always think of themselves as better than everyone else, often without even realising it.

I'd also stress that accessibility doesn't automatically mean dumbing down.

[LinksOcarina]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It always amazes me how isolationist and phobic-to-new-things people in the rpg fanbases can be. Everything needs to be niche and stagnant and has to be so mired in rpg game mechanics from the 90's and early 2000's so only the legendary true fans can enjoy.

That might have a teensy weensy bit to do with that era being the golden age of the RPG, and something that hasn't been equaled since. The 2006 to present era of the RPG is a wasteland comparitively, unless you really count MMOs. Which I don't.

I tend to agree with the "Don't, just make the best game possible" crowd. DAO had some pretty goofy marketing ideas (Marilyn Manson, really?) but that didn't hurt it because at heart it was just a damned good game. It had it's flaws (the class system for one, is too MMO derivative, graphics are a bit dated) but when the core product is good enough it didn't matter.

I do find it funny that there's almost a double standard when it comes to aiming at particular fanbases. Anything seen as aiming at the dreaded Call of Duty crowd is dragged over hot coals, but a lot of other stuff is given a free pass.

I'd just have to say "stop trying to appeal". You can put in elements appealing to particular fanbases without feeling like you're clobbering everyone over the head with it. Want more reactive combat? Sure! Just kind of restrain it so that it's not flying all over the place. Want to appeal to gay/bi romances? Great! Just don't make it so that it's blatantly so "Hello, I am your gay love interest. Did I mention I'm gay? Because I'm gay. Unless you're the opposite gender, in which case I am no longer gay." like we've seen with DA2 or ME3.

Yeah I don't agree with this at all. Right now is the golden age of RPG's, hell we are seeing more innovation and genre-mixing than before which is actually a good thing because it brings in innovation. It is also is an issue of opinion, because everyone asserts what they say as the absolute truth in the RPG space, since everyone has a specific thing they consider an "RPG", which usually isen't the case in the least most of the time.


By sheer amount of numbers we are seeing a large-scale surge of Role-playing games in different styles. Just because its different from 1998 doesn't mean its bad. That turns into the grognard mentality, something that honestly should be despised because then there would be no reason to innovate anymore. It's bad enough most fantasy games have to include elves and orcs into them when they don't need it in the end, but the grognards rule everything of course.

 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:28 .

[Nightdragon8]

honestly I wouldn't make it more "genaric" its pointless, and we get like we had in the 80's where almost all the cars looked the same. sorry i like uniqueness. and if the CoD generation of gameplayers can't get into then frankly thats fine.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Being retro is no more unique then generic. It just means you aren't progressing.

[KC_Prototype]

Add black people. There, DA just gained 40 million players!

[Br3admax]

KC_Prototype wrote...

Add black people. There, DA just gained 40 million players!

By that logic almost every single white person in America plays DA. The reason that black people refrain from playing Dragon Age has nothing to do with the number of colored people in it.