160 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Miranda could intimidate Jack. (ME2) Jack's soooo defensive.

Miranda is the one who flinches in their "catfight" scene.

 

Not seeing a flinch from Miranda. I'm rather seeing Miranda act more professional and not let her rampant emotions get unchecked, unlike Jack.

Watch it again. It comes at Jack's "Screw you" & finger in the face.

Negative, I'm not seeing a flinch. Shepard in fact intervenes before Miranda can react. And his reaction is justified enough.

I legitimately don't think anyone can intimidate Jack. Damn girl doesn't bat an eye at anything, and will fight anyone.

Yep. And that's gonna suck for her when she tries that on Shepard, who will deck her in the face. If not put one in her head.

Jack doesn't pick fights, she simply defends herself from those who threaten her. Shepard would probably best her in a fight, but she wouldn't be the one to start it (she knows she'd lose), and would not go down without fighting back tooth-and-nail.

Respect.

So she didn't totally pick that fight with Miranda? Come on. Jack was out for blood. Or look at Aresh. Shepard has to talk her out of killing him. I have no respect for impulsive animals that can't keep their emotions and behavior in check. Miranda can. Though Miranda isn't entirely above the insulting barb, she's not the one threatening my ship, my crew, and myself. Jack is. And that makes her a problem. And it would be a very short fight. Shepard would put her down without wasting a breath. 

Jack isn't even phased by threats from Samara, whose biotics are on par with hers and has more combat experience.

That to me just shows that she's an idiot.

That's okay. It's not as if Samara was going to follow up on her idle threats anyway.

Or it shows how Samara is disciplined and respectul of Shepard's authority enough not to undermine it. I believe it would be, once again, a one-sided fight for Jack. Samara would put her down hard.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

So she didn't totally pick that fight with Miranda? Come on. Jack was out for blood. Or look at Aresh. Shepard has to talk her out of killing him. I have no respect for impulsive animals that can't keep their emotions and behavior in check. Miranda can. Though Miranda isn't entirely above the insulting barb, she's not the one threatening my ship, my crew, and myself. 

Jack's been through a hell of a lot more than Miri, on that base alone I have more respect for her. Miri is idealistic, pragmatic, cold hearted, ruthless and self-righteous, I can see why a lot of people could dislike her or how she could provoke a fight.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

So she didn't totally pick that fight with Miranda? Come on. Jack was out for blood. Or look at Aresh. Shepard has to talk her out of killing him. I have no respect for impulsive animals that can't keep their emotions and behavior in check. Miranda can. Though Miranda isn't entirely above the insulting barb, she's not the one threatening my ship, my crew, and myself. 

Jack's been through a hell of a lot more than Miri, on that base alone I have more respect for her. Miri is idealistic, pragmatic, cold hearted, ruthless and self-righteous, I can see why a lot of people could dislike her or how she could provoke a fight.

This point is dismissed on the basis of you having no proof on what Jack or Miranda has been through. You're making this point up. Miranda has been working for Cerberus almost as long as Jack has been alive. Miranda has discipline, skill, capability, adaptability, competency, leadership, and a calm, practical head. Jack really only has raw power at first. She's a wild animal, destructive to not only her opponents, but her allies as well.

Miranda is idealistic to a degree, yes, and she tempers it with her pragmatism. I don't see how this is a negative trait.

She is not cold-hearted. She has a passion for what she does and is viewed as a strong leader by her employee's, though they might believe she is cold-hearted due to her penchance to think instead of relying on emotion. Wilson is really the only Cerberus agent who didn't like her, and that was really his own fault more than anyone else's.

As for her ruthlessness, yes, she is uncompromising in pursuit of her goals. I wouldn't call her completely and violently ruthless - she's willing to use any means to get to her goal, but she focuses on the practical and efficient than the most violent or malevolent means.

As for Self-righteous, you'd have to actually make an argument about what she's being self-righteous about, and why it's a bad thing. She's really not. Ashley is self-righteous. Self-righteous is the belief that you're absolutely correct, even when presented with logic and reason that proves that your position is at most subjective opinion.

She can be abrasive, straightforward, critical, analytical, and severe, yes, and that doesn't do wonders for making people like her personally, but that alone doesn't provoke fights. Unless you have really thin skin and an inability to adapt. In which case, the problem is on your end.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Miranda is idealistic to a degree, yes, and she tempers it with her pragmatism. I don't see how this is a negative trait.
She is not cold-hearted. She has a passion for what she does and is viewed as a strong leader by her employee's, though they might believe she is cold-hearted due to her penchance to think instead of relying on emotion. Wilson is really the only Cerberus agent who didn't like her, and that was really his own fault more than anyone else's.
As for her ruthlessness, yes, she is uncompromising in pursuit of her goals. I wouldn't call her completely and violently ruthless - she's willing to use any means to get to her goal, but she focuses on the practical and efficient than the most violent or malevolent means.

She can be abrasive, straightforward, critical, analytical, and severe, yes, and that doesn't do wonders for making people like her personally, but that alone doesn't provoke fights. Unless you have really thin skin and an inability to adapt. In which case, the problem is on your end.

I never claimed any of her traits to be negative. I assumed Jack to have been through more than Miri simply based on their respective background. Jack was a human lab rat, Miri the genetically engineered daughter of a multi-billionaire. You don't know if Wilson was the only Cerberus agent to dislike her, we only see her interact with two in the whole game. What I tried to point out was, that due to Miri's idealism and pride it would be very, very easy for her to get into fights, simply because she'd never back down. Wether you like her traits or not, it's obvious most people wouldn't react well to them.

[General TSAR]

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

[eyezonlyii]

General TSAR wrote...

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

Nah. I think Hackett could intimidate TIM. Even when Reneshep goes off on him in ME1, he's like "Meh. Whatevs"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...
I never claimed any of her traits to be negative.

Miri is idealistic, pragmatic, cold hearted, ruthless and self-righteous, I can see why a lot of people could dislike her or how she could provoke a fight.

You just stated that due to having these traits, Miranda causes a lot of people too dislike her so far as it provoking violence agaist her. This is an implication of violence, a negative trait. 

So yes, you were claiming her traits to be negative.

I assumed Jack to have been through more than Miri simply based on their respective background.

I know I've told you this before, but an aesop for you:

Never assume anything, it makes an ass out of you and me.

Jack was a human lab rat, Miri the genetically engineered daughter of a multi-billionaire.

... Who was also a human lab rat, as she stated. She even states that her father had other children like her whom he disposed of for not being perfect. And Oriana was slated to be her replacement since Miranda was too independent. The state between Miranda and her father was so bad that when she left, shots were fired at her. And she tells you about all the standards her father forced her to meet simply to show off his own brilliance at the expense of her happiness.

You don't know if Wilson was the only Cerberus agent to dislike her, we only see her interact with two in the whole game.

No, but the evidence points otherwise. The crewmembers of the Normandy? They all have nothing but praise and respect for Miranda, talking about with her and Shepard in charge (mentioning her by name), they'll get the mission accomplished. And she's shown to extend a strong level of support and strength for crew members with issues. Remember Crewman Rolstan, the crewmember whos' family had to be evacuated? Yeah, he acknowledges Miranda by name as having been instrumental in facilitating their extraction and working with the Cerberus agents in charge. 

So while I don't believe that it is realistic to state that absolutely every employee of Cerberus that she's ever worked with would love and adore her, it seems that she's held in very high regard by not only TIM, but by her subordinates and colleagues as well.

What I tried to point out was, that due to Miri's idealism and pride it would be very, very easy for her to get into fights, simply because she'd never back down. Wether you like her traits or not, it's obvious most people wouldn't react well to them.

I don't believe she would ever engage in physical violence herself unless it was either a mission or threat directed at herself or her sister (and if you romance her, Shepard). She's above it. She's going to fight (argumentive and verbal) with people who don't understand her reasoning or let their emotions and opinions cloud their judgement, but she isn't going to be the one to get violent. She's far too disciplined for that. And no, I doubt people would react well to her judgements. Then again, most people let their emotions, opinions, and beliefs cloud their judgement. If they initate violence because of that (like Jack does), that just show's me that they're hot-headed, undisciplined, and wild. They're a ticking time-bomb who are just as likely to attack allies as enemies.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

eyezonlyii wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

Nah. I think Hackett could intimidate TIM. Even when Reneshep goes off on him in ME1, he's like "Meh. Whatevs"

I think TIM would easily ****** off Hackett though. Considering my Shepard pretty much pissed off Hackett when Shepard stopped him in the middle of a request to ask him why I should care about his missions and what good they did. Self-righteous folks, like nearly everyone in the alliance, have a tendency to get angry at anything they don't like.

TIM has a great way of keeping cool and collected, at least before the Reaper tech starts playing screws with his brain. 

[Kataphrut94]

I dunno, Hackett commands fleets for a living. It's hard to see him getting intimidated by anything.

[eyezonlyii]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

Nah. I think Hackett could intimidate TIM. Even when Reneshep goes off on him in ME1, he's like "Meh. Whatevs"

I think TIM would easily ****** off Hackett though. Considering my Shepard pretty much pissed off Hackett when Shepard stopped him in the middle of a request to ask him why I should care about his missions and what good they did. Self-righteous folks, like nearly everyone in the alliance, have a tendency to get angry at anything they don't like.

TIM has a great way of keeping cool and collected, at least before the Reaper tech starts playing screws with his brain. 

TIM gets a bit riled up when I disagree with him on some things (almost everything in fact, not that I'm entirely paragon). So maybe we're just seeing the parts were we can get under the other person's skin at different points.

[Massa FX]

My renegade biotic Femshep trumps all when she's pissed. Especially if its her time of the month. The bulkheads on the Normandy bend in when she walks past.

[SwobyJ]

RatThing wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...


It really comes from:

1)Knowing people who act like Jack (sans the biotics and colorful history)
2)The overall gist of her Cerberus story

Intimidation isn't always as cleancut as "Oh yes, I'll do what you say, don't hurt me!" Sometimes the person going "Screw you! **** off!" is actually the one most concerned about what you're doing and who you are, but doesn't want to admit it.

That's really Jack's thing. Anti-social because she let herself get too close to too many people and got burned too many times. The "Cheerleader" tag onto Miranda almost said it all to me.


EDIT: I'm not saying she's physically or socially intimidated, but psychologically. From the first day they met.
Miranda, on the other hand, is intimidated by the Illusive Man's presence of control - who in the subtext really took over in her mind from her father. She is loyal to him as a result, but Shepard can break her out of that (well he does by default, unless she dies on Suicide Mission, but still).

So it's more about Jack's behaviour than Mirandas because I can't think of any scene where Miranda does or says something that could have had that effect on Jack. I know what you mean and I can imagine that Mirandas character setup and backstory supposed to make her some psychologically manipulative mastermind, a person who could read people like books and play them like violins. That would have been in fact interesting, it's just that there are no scenes or dialogues to strengthen this image. Take the confrontation with Jack for example. Would such a person really need papa Shepard to come along and settle the dispute? Or be all cranky if Shepard sides with Jack? I'd expect such a person would look at the emotional wreckage that Jack is and know exactly how to manipulate her to at least leave her alone. It didn't happen.

Huh? No, I just mean that Miranda simply existing and being in the same ship as Jack intimidates her. Nothing else does, so Jack can easily pick a fight. And she does.

Miranda's strategy is passive intimidation, not active. Jack's is active intimidation, and it just doesn't exactly work on Miranda. Jack's intimidation works great on outright 'lower' than her though, like the other kids at her facility, or other criminals. With peers though? She's weak. Miranda is great with intimidating peers and lowers, but those above her she can be weak against due to da daddy issueezz.

[SwobyJ]

eyezonlyii wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

Nah. I think Hackett could intimidate TIM. Even when Reneshep goes off on him in ME1, he's like "Meh. Whatevs"

Hackett's got too much to deal with and people can either help him, or move along.

Even IF there's some revelation that he secretly worked more with Cerberus up to ME3 (where he thinks they've gone totally off the rails), he probably looked DOWN on TIM, not up.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]SwobyJ wrote...

Miranda could intimidate Jack. (ME2) Jack's soooo defensive.[/quote]


Miranda is the one who flinches in their "catfight" scene.

[/quote] 

Not seeing a flinch from Miranda. I'm rather seeing Miranda act more professional and not let her rampant emotions get unchecked, unlike Jack.[/quote]

Watch it again. It comes at Jack's "Screw you" & finger in the face.

[/quote]

Negative, I'm not seeing a flinch. Shepard in fact intervenes before Miranda can react. And his reaction is justified enough.[/quote]

She takes a full step back when Jack points a finger at her. It's clear as day.



[quote][quote]
[quote][quote]I legitimately don't think anyone can intimidate Jack. Damn girl doesn't bat an eye at anything, and will fight anyone.[/quote]
Yep. And that's gonna suck for her when she tries that on Shepard, who will deck her in the face. If not put one in her head.[/quote]

Jack doesn't pick fights, she simply defends herself from those who threaten her. Shepard would probably best her in a fight, but she wouldn't be the one to start it (she knows she'd lose), and would not go down without fighting back tooth-and-nail.

Respect.[/quote]

So she didn't totally pick that fight with Miranda? Come on. Jack was out for blood.[/quote]

We don't know how that thing started. There's no reason to believe Jack was "out for" anything.

Especially not when you can get that scene long after Pragia is completed (delay Miranda's loyalty mission).

It takes two to tango, and if it escalated to that, they were both at fault.


[quote]Or look at Aresh. Shepard has to talk her out of killing him.[/quote]

No he doesn't, actually. I've seen all outcomes of that scene, not just the upper-blue/lower-red outcomes:

1.) Optimal paragon: Shepard tells her to let him go, Jack has doubts, Shepard then convinces her to let him go.
2.) Optimal renegade: Shepard tells her to kill him, Jack has doubts, Shepard then convinces her to kill him.
3.) Sub-optimal paragon: Shepard tells her to let him go, Jack objects to being bossed around.
-- If Shepard takes the paragon interrupt, he helps up Aresh and Jack lets him go.
-- If not, she shoots him out of anger at Shepard (telling him "Nobody tells me what to do" ... if I remember right).
4.) Sub-optimal renegade: Shepard tells her to kill him, she has doubts.
-- If Shepard takes the interrupt, Jack will crack and shoot him herself.
-- If not, she lets him go herself.

Jack only kills Aresh if she's coerced -or- provoked by Shepard.

In #4 she comes to the realization herself that killing Aresh doesn't do her any good to kill him.

If she were alone, she most likely she would have let him go (not that Aresh should have been let to walk free).


[quote]I have no respect for impulsive animals that can't keep their emotions and behavior in check. Miranda can.[/quote]

Don't make me laugh. Miranda gets offended by just slightly negative comments about Cerberus.


[quote]Or it shows how Samara is disciplined and respectul of Shepard's authority enough not to undermine it. I believe it would be, once again, a one-sided fight for Jack. Samara would put her down hard.[/quote]

You don't even know what I'm talking about, do you?

Jack is fantasizing about what she could do on Illium, given all the money and soft(-looking) people, when Samara does her stupid Justicar routine by threatening to invoke the 'Code and fight her for it. You know, the 'Code she renounced as part of joining Shepard's mission? She's threatening a member of the crew in violation of her oath to Shepard.

You objected to that behavior from Jack, but it seems not to apply elsewhere. That is called a double-standard.

[SwobyJ]

To be clear here, the definition I'm using is 'to make others timid', with timid being 'lacking confidence'.

Miranda makes Jack lack confidence in herself, just be being around her, because Jack does NOT have a strong sense of self in much of ME2. Only the time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission forms her into a person with a stronger sense of self, giving her the confidence to take a risk and try to help other biotic humans.
Miranda already has a strong sense of self in ME2, but not of her place in the world. The time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission turns her also into a person who knows what she needs to do and who to gun for (aka not the Alliance, but Cerberus and stopping TIM).

Jack had the right goal, but wasn't yet the right kind of person for it.
Miranda had the wrong goal, but was the right person for goal-setting.
After ME2, both have the right goals and were the right people for it. You can expand this thinking to a lot of other ME2 characters, and who they become in ME3.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[eyezonlyii]

 Kaidan could intimidate the fish tank VI:blush:

[Oni Changas]

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

So wrong. Anderson is still in good fighting shape (despite objections in ME2) whereas TIM barely scrapes by before Kai Leng saves his ass. TIM spent too much time sitting around. Hackett on the other hand is described by nearly everyone to be a tough old sob much like Walter Kowalski in Gran Torino. The other two are more like lackies in comparison.

I think Javik, Samara, Shepard, Wrex, Thane, and maybe Grunt would be top tier.
Next, Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda, Jack, Mordin.
Then, Jacob, Ash, James, Kaidan, Liara.
After, Tali, Kasumi.

Other notables:

Kai Leng wasn't intimidated by Aria in the least, going so far as to tell her he'd gut at least one of her guards AND her if he'd been attacked during his negotiations for TIM on Omega.

Aria without a doubt runs **** in the Terminus. We're shown this quite a few times and exceptionally in Retribution.

[eyezonlyii]

OniTYME wrote...

TIM could intimate Hackett, Anderson, Mikhailovich,and that Admiral who later got pwned by Cerberus.

So wrong. Anderson is still in good fighting shape (despite objections in ME2) whereas TIM barely scrapes by before Kai Leng saves his ass. TIM spent too much time sitting around. Hackett on the other hand is described by nearly everyone to be a tough old sob much like Walter Kowalski in Gran Torino. The other two are more like lackies in comparison.

I think Javik, Samara, Shepard, Wrex, Thane, and maybe Grunt would be top tier.
Next, Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda, Jack, Mordin.
Then, Jacob, Ash, James, Kaidan, Liara.
After, Tali, Kasumi.

Other notables:

Kai Leng wasn't intimidated by Aria in the least, going so far as to tell her he'd gut at least one of her guards AND her if he'd been attacked during his negotiations for TIM on Omega.

Aria without a doubt runs **** in the Terminus. We're shown this quite a few times and exceptionally in Retribution.

I would swap Zaeed and Thane. Thane wasn't all that intimidating to me.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]SwobyJ wrote...

Miranda could intimidate Jack. (ME2) Jack's soooo defensive.[/quote]


Miranda is the one who flinches in their "catfight" scene.

[/quote] 

Not seeing a flinch from Miranda. I'm rather seeing Miranda act more professional and not let her rampant emotions get unchecked, unlike Jack.[/quote]

Watch it again. It comes at Jack's "Screw you" & finger in the face.

[/quote]

Negative, I'm not seeing a flinch. Shepard in fact intervenes before Miranda can react. And his reaction is justified enough.[/quote]

She takes a full step back when Jack points a finger at her. It's clear as day.

[/quote]

Clear as day is Shepard intervening before things become heated. Miranda isn't spooked, but Shepard stands up to put Jack down before anything happens that he might regret.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
[quote][quote]I legitimately don't think anyone can intimidate Jack. Damn girl doesn't bat an eye at anything, and will fight anyone.[/quote]
Yep. And that's gonna suck for her when she tries that on Shepard, who will deck her in the face. If not put one in her head.[/quote]

Jack doesn't pick fights, she simply defends herself from those who threaten her. Shepard would probably best her in a fight, but she wouldn't be the one to start it (she knows she'd lose), and would not go down without fighting back tooth-and-nail.

Respect.[/quote]

So she didn't totally pick that fight with Miranda? Come on. Jack was out for blood.[/quote]

We don't know how that thing started. There's no reason to believe Jack was "out for" anything.

Especially not when you can get that scene long after Pragia is completed (delay Miranda's loyalty mission).

It takes two to tango, and if it escalated to that, they were both at fault.

[/quote]

It had to have started with Jack, considering she took the trouble to go up one deck and into Miranda's office. I doubt Miranda would spare Jack the time (or the danger to the ship) to summon her up just to berate her or insult her. Even if you hold off on Jack's loyalty mission or Miranda's, it seems that Jack is indeed the one starting drama.


[quote]
[quote]I have no respect for impulsive animals that can't keep their emotions and behavior in check. Miranda can.[/quote]

Don't make me laugh. Miranda gets offended by just slightly negative comments about Cerberus.

[/quote]

Miranda doesn't go barging into offices hellbent on starting a violent altercation. Miranda defends herself with words and reason. Miranda doesn't go around acting impulsively and starting **** for fun. 

You're trying to pull this that Miranda getting defensive about Cerberus is somehow the same reaction as Jack getting angry enough to endanger the ship's integrity? 


[quote]
[quote]Or it shows how Samara is disciplined and respectul of Shepard's authority enough not to undermine it. I believe it would be, once again, a one-sided fight for Jack. Samara would put her down hard.[/quote]

You don't even know what I'm talking about, do you?

Jack is fantasizing about what she could do on Illium, given all the money and soft(-looking) people, when Samara does her stupid Justicar routine by threatening to invoke the 'Code and fight her for it. You know, the 'Code she renounced as part of joining Shepard's mission? She's threatening a member of the crew in violation of her oath to Shepard.

[/quote]

I think it's rather justified. She didn't renounce her Code either. And let's put it this way: Jack is verbally threatening to start violence for the sake of starting violence. She's not trying to be productive. She's talking about actively going out of her way to go on a killing spree for fun. If she's unstable enough to do that, then yes, Samara is justified in telling her to simmer down. And I believe Shepard would expect no less from Samara than to take her out if she becomes a liability due to lack of self-control.

[quote]
You objected to that behavior from Jack, but it seems not to apply elsewhere. That is called a double-standard.
[/quote]

It would be a double standard if Samara or Miranda or anyone else was threatening to go on a killing spree and I turned a blind eye to it since Jack was doing it.

However, it is not a double standard because Jack is threatening to go on a wanton violence run for her own amusement. Samara stopping Jack from doing such is not committing wanton unnecessary violence and destruction. It's her stopping Jack from committing violence and destruction. 

Really, what are you trying to imply by saying that Samara killing Jack for being a wild animal that is dangerous and destructive to her allies as being worse than Jack being a wild animal that is dangerous and destructive to her allies? This seems like you're the one setting the double standard for Jack.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[maaaad365]

The top intimidators are Hacket and Zaeed, I don't know who would win in a direct confrontation. Aria is a close third, then Wrex.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

SwobyJ wrote...

To be clear here, the definition I'm using is 'to make others timid', with timid being 'lacking confidence'.

Miranda makes Jack lack confidence in herself, just be being around her, because Jack does NOT have a strong sense of self in much of ME2. Only the time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission forms her into a person with a stronger sense of self, giving her the confidence to take a risk and try to help other biotic humans.
Miranda already has a strong sense of self in ME2, but not of her place in the world. The time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission turns her also into a person who knows what she needs to do and who to gun for (aka not the Alliance, but Cerberus and stopping TIM).

Jack had the right goal, but wasn't yet the right kind of person for it.
Miranda had the wrong goal, but was the right person for goal-setting.
After ME2, both have the right goals and were the right people for it. You can expand this thinking to a lot of other ME2 characters, and who they become in ME3.

Define "right goal".

I believe Miranda had both the right goal and was the right person for said goal.

I don't believe Jack had the right goal, though I will say that I agree that she isn't the right person for a goal yet.

Considering I believe helping TIM is a good thing (despite a few cases of legitimate conflicts of interests), I think helping Cerberus is the right goal.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

maaaad365 wrote...

The top intimidators are Hacket and Zaeed, I don't know who would win in a direct confrontation. Aria is a close third, then Wrex.

Nah, my Shepard would trump all. Scornful apathy for the win.

[maaaad365]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

The top intimidators are Hacket and Zaeed, I don't know who would win in a direct confrontation. Aria is a close third, then Wrex.

Nah, my Shepard would trump all. Scornful apathy for the win.

Only if he is max renegade. That's why I excluded him.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

OniTYME wrote...
I think Javik, Samara, Shepard, Wrex, Thane, and maybe Grunt would be top tier.
Next, Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda, Jack, Mordin.
Then, Jacob, Ash, James, Kaidan, Liara.
After, Tali, Kasumi.

I'd put Shepard, Miranda, Samara, Javik, and Thane at the top tier of intimidating. (and Morinth)

Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin, and Grunt 

Jacob, Jack, Wrex, Legion, and EDI

Kaidan, Ashley, James, Kasumi

Tali, Liara

[MassivelyEffective0730]

maaaad365 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

The top intimidators are Hacket and Zaeed, I don't know who would win in a direct confrontation. Aria is a close third, then Wrex.

Nah, my Shepard would trump all. Scornful apathy for the win.

Only if he is max renegade. That's why I excluded him.

Even scarier: True Neutral.