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[SwobyJ]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

To be clear here, the definition I'm using is 'to make others timid', with timid being 'lacking confidence'.

Miranda makes Jack lack confidence in herself, just be being around her, because Jack does NOT have a strong sense of self in much of ME2. Only the time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission forms her into a person with a stronger sense of self, giving her the confidence to take a risk and try to help other biotic humans.
Miranda already has a strong sense of self in ME2, but not of her place in the world. The time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission turns her also into a person who knows what she needs to do and who to gun for (aka not the Alliance, but Cerberus and stopping TIM).

Jack had the right goal, but wasn't yet the right kind of person for it.
Miranda had the wrong goal, but was the right person for goal-setting.
After ME2, both have the right goals and were the right people for it. You can expand this thinking to a lot of other ME2 characters, and who they become in ME3.

Define "right goal".

I believe Miranda had both the right goal and was the right person for said goal.

I don't believe Jack had the right goal, though I will say that I agree that she isn't the right person for a goal yet.

Considering I believe helping TIM is a good thing (despite a few cases of legitimate conflicts of interests), I think helping Cerberus is the right goal.

Right goal = opposing Cerberus. Not necessarily the ideals, not necessarily individuals in it, but just the *organization* that it gradually reaches fulfillment to its path in ME3. The Cerb-Normandy was a manufactured happy-town to make Shepard comfortable with Cerberus, and Miranda was enough of a loyalist to handwave any questionable actions as necessary (because when it comes down to it, research on the topics Cerberus researched could actually be useful, for one example).

Helping *TIM*, is different from helping Cerberus, as much as TIM tries to say otherwise. Cerberus tries to make a 'help us, you're helping humanity' message legit, but it isn't. There's a ton of ways to help humanity that isn't involving taking over Omega, or experimenting on biotic-sensitive children, or attacking Alliance settlements. Oh wait, 'rogue elements'. An organization with this many rogue elements is a damn danger to everyone. That's the whole point. Jack knew this early on from experience - Miranda learns it later on.

That's what I mean by 'right goal'. Cerberus itself may even have the best *interests* for the advancement of humanity, but its own actions do not really fit any responsible moral structure.

[Anubis722]

Tier 1: Javik,Wrex,Aria,Samara,Zaeed,Morinth
Tier 2: Garrus,Grunt,Jack,Miranda,Ashley,Thane,Mordin
Tier 3: Tali,Kasumi,Jacob,Legion,EDI,Liara,Nyreen,Kaidan,Vega

[Kataphrut94]

I like the idea of intimidation tiers. Let's do this thing.

Top: Shepard, Hackett, Aria, Wrex, Samara, Zaeed - Intimidating through sheer presence
Second Top: TIM, Anderson, Grunt, Jack, Javik - Intimidating through power
Second Bottom: Garrus, Thane, Miranda, Jacob, Ashley, Liara - Not generally intimidating, can pull it off when they need
Bottom: James, Kaidan, Tali, Kasumi, Joker - Not intimidating at all

I'd put Mordin, EDI and Legion as redundant, since they would not be intimidated by anyone.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[Oni Changas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

OniTYME wrote...
I think Javik, Samara, Shepard, Wrex, Thane, and maybe Grunt would be top tier.
Next, Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda, Jack, Mordin.
Then, Jacob, Ash, James, Kaidan, Liara.
After, Tali, Kasumi.

I'd put Shepard, Miranda, Samara, Javik, and Thane at the top tier of intimidating. (and Morinth)

Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin, and Grunt 

Jacob, Jack, Wrex, Legion, and EDI

Kaidan, Ashley, James, Kasumi

Tali, Liara

I don't put Miranda in the top tier because she's not a person I see actually intimidating many people by presence alone. She's supposedly "2nd in command" at Cerberus but I get the feeling that many operatives and agents laugh behind her back when she leaves a room. Wrex, Javik, Samara, and Thane (and Morinth) command fear AND respect in addition to being the few people I'd see standing up to Shepard and winning as well as showing no fear, doubt, or intimidation whatsoever towards any challengers.

As for EDI and Legion, I don't count them. Though I'd probably  rank sexbot around Tali level. EDI's still being molded by organics whereas Legion, if pushed would do some serious damage. He's kinda hard to judge due to his different perspective in ME2. ME3 Legion and EDI are practically toddlers.

I'd put Mordin, EDI and Legion as redundant, since they would not be intimidated by anyone.

Mordin's like a BMW M5. The wolf in sheep's clothing. Dude had Blue Suns AND Blood Pack scared to step up around his clinic. Not to mention Aria was impressed by his demeanor.

I would swap Zaeed and Thane. Thane wasn't all that intimidating to me.

On the surface. But to those who know who he is, people tend to wet their pants. Nobody would mess with him. Of course I'm using ME2 as his criteria.

Modifié par OniTYME, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[Han Shot First]

If that catfight between Miranda and Jack had turned into a full on brawl, Miranda would have ended up a stain on the bulkhead. I like Miranda, but she is canonically weaker than Jack. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Clear as day is Shepard intervening before things become heated. Miranda isn't spooked, but Shepard stands up to put Jack down before anything happens that he might regret.

Shepard intervening was never in question, just the fact that within the course of the conversation, Jack gets in her face and it takes Miranda aback. I find it curious you'd deny this. You were claming Jack would be an idiot for not fearing Samara. So what does that make Miranda if she's truly not afraid of the big, angry, psychotic-biotic elephant in the room?

It had to have started with Jack, considering she took the trouble to go up one deck and into Miranda's office. I doubt Miranda would spare Jack the time (or the danger to the ship) to summon her up just to berate her or insult her. Even if you hold off on Jack's loyalty mission or Miranda's, it seems that Jack is indeed the one starting drama.

Oh it's completely possible Jack was summoned to Miranda's office.

Miranda is the 2IC on the ship. She writes mission reports that are sent to the Illusive Man. One mission is Jack going to Pragia. Miranda may not have been there and may have needed Jack's account. Shepard is often busy, after all.

(... and it wouldn't take very long for that to get out-of-hand).

In fact, I find it more likely that the ship's second-in-command would summon one of the crew to her office than the notion that Jack would ever choose to be there for any reason other than pure necessity... but that's just me.

You're trying to pull this that Miranda getting defensive about Cerberus is somehow the same reaction as Jack getting angry enough to endanger the ship's integrity?

It was your claim that Miranda keeps her motivations and feelings in check.

And I laugh at that, seeing as she gets super butthurt about any negative comment against Cerberus.

Then there's also the fact that there was a fight in her office at all. You've concluded that Jack just up and came to fight her because ~ooh, she hates Cerberus, and this based on the fact that... Jack was there. It is a complete and utter leap. We're not told -- for fact -- who started that fight. I think that was a conscious decision on the writer's part to leave that information out. To me, this is effectively telling us that... it doesn't matter. Both are at fault for letting it come to that.

'Only way I see a fight break out between them is if they both choose to argue about Cerberus, in which case, Miranda would not be keeping her feelings in check. She'd be getting butthurt about Cerberus criticism (as she usually does).

I think it's rather justified. She didn't renounce her Code either.

Yeah she did. It was at the end of her recruitment mission.

And let's put it this way: Jack is verbally threatening to start violence for the sake of starting violence. She's not trying to be productive. She's talking about actively going out of her way to go on a killing spree for fun. If she's unstable enough to do that, then yes, Samara is justified in telling her to simmer down. And I believe Shepard would expect no less from Samara than to take her out if she becomes a liability due to lack of self-control.

*snip'd by H*

It would be a double standard if Samara or Miranda or anyone
else was threatening to go on a killing spree and I turned a blind eye
to it since Jack was doing it.

However, it is not a double
standard because Jack is threatening to go on a wanton violence run for
her own amusement. Samara stopping Jack from doing such is not
committing wanton unnecessary violence and destruction. It's her
stopping Jack from committing violence and destruction. 

Really,
what are you trying to imply by saying that Samara killing Jack for
being a wild animal that is dangerous and destructive to her allies as
being worse than Jack being a wild animal that is dangerous and
destructive to her allies? This seems like you're the one setting the
double standard for Jack.

Perhaps you've forgotten that Jack is part of a small squad on an important mission? Whatever mischief she's claiming to plan on starting, she's not going to do now or anytime soon, if for no other reason than (1) being busy; (2) being under supervision. It's kind of obvious that that was just Jack being... Jack. Grunt and Wrex can go on about how they'll torture salarians, it doesn't mean they're literally going to, nor should anyone around them take action accordingly.

In response to Jacob, Jack even said she was "just thinking out loud." Nothing more.

Samara doesn't recognize this, though, because she is socially-awkward and has no sense of humor. And, being the extremist she is, she turns to her "justice"-nonsense. Unlike Miranda, though, Jack doesn't take the bait and go fight.

[MR CauSe iM GoD]

Sovereigns half brother Sluggard, would intimidate everyone. He's looking for some pay back.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Han Shot First wrote...

If that catfight between Miranda and Jack had turned into a full on brawl, Miranda would have ended up a stain on the bulkhead. I like Miranda, but she is canonically weaker than Jack. 

Weaker, but also smarter, clever, and tactical.

I think Miranda would have had some kind of ace in her sleeve. Raw power alone does not necessitate survival.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

SwobyJ wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

To be clear here, the definition I'm using is 'to make others timid', with timid being 'lacking confidence'.

Miranda makes Jack lack confidence in herself, just be being around her, because Jack does NOT have a strong sense of self in much of ME2. Only the time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission forms her into a person with a stronger sense of self, giving her the confidence to take a risk and try to help other biotic humans.
Miranda already has a strong sense of self in ME2, but not of her place in the world. The time on the Normandy, Loyalty, and Suicide Mission turns her also into a person who knows what she needs to do and who to gun for (aka not the Alliance, but Cerberus and stopping TIM).

Jack had the right goal, but wasn't yet the right kind of person for it.
Miranda had the wrong goal, but was the right person for goal-setting.
After ME2, both have the right goals and were the right people for it. You can expand this thinking to a lot of other ME2 characters, and who they become in ME3.

Define "right goal".

I believe Miranda had both the right goal and was the right person for said goal.

I don't believe Jack had the right goal, though I will say that I agree that she isn't the right person for a goal yet.

Considering I believe helping TIM is a good thing (despite a few cases of legitimate conflicts of interests), I think helping Cerberus is the right goal.

Right goal = opposing Cerberus.

Negative, that's not the right goal to me until ME3 when, due to indoctrination, you literally have no other choice.

Not necessarily the ideals, not necessarily individuals in it, but just the *organization* that it gradually reaches fulfillment to its path in ME3. The Cerb-Normandy was a manufactured happy-town to make Shepard comfortable with Cerberus, and Miranda was enough of a loyalist to handwave any questionable actions as necessary (because when it comes down to it, research on the topics Cerberus researched could actually be useful, for one example).

I don't care how Cerberus reaches their goals. Are they excessive to a degree? Yes, but they still reach them. At the end of the day, that's all that matters in my opinion. I don't really bother with morality and ethics. The actions, as my Shepard sees it, weren't necessary per se, but he's not one to get wrapped up in how someone else gets something done. All that matters to him is that Cerberus gets their goals done. TIM didn't need to try and hide the true Cerberus from TIM. My Shepard would have been right at home. He tells Miranda straight up that he wishes they had recruited him earlier. The Normandy was a manipulation that Shepard didn't buy into, mainly because he didn't have to.

Helping *TIM*, is different from helping Cerberus, as much as TIM tries to say otherwise. Cerberus tries to make a 'help us, you're helping humanity' message legit, but it isn't.

I think it totally is. Much, much more so than the alliance. If I listened to the alliance message, we'd all be goo in a Reaper before the alliance came to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, the Reapers were something more than a hallucinatory myth. So their point of view is worthless in my opinion.

There's a ton of ways to help humanity that isn't involving taking over Omega, or experimenting on biotic-sensitive children, or attacking Alliance settlements.

Sure. But if these methods get me to my goal of stopping the Reapers faster, then I don't care. It's a means.

Ever hear of the unfettered approach?

Oh wait, 'rogue elements'. An organization with this many rogue elements is a damn danger to everyone. That's the whole point. Jack knew this early on from experience - Miranda learns it later on.

Only one element was rogue. That was Teltin Facility. And regardless, I still defend their actions. That's something TIM isn't even going to do.

Simply put, my Shepard is even more willing to do 'terrible' things than even TIM. And his justification is squatting down on the sub-deck in Engineering. 

As for anything else, I'll leave you with this: http://social.biowar...8185/6#17448419

That's what I mean by 'right goal'. Cerberus itself may even have the best *interests* for the advancement of humanity, but its own actions do not really fit any responsible moral structure.

That's why I think your morality is useless. I have my own sense of it, as does Cerberus. Morality is subjective. It's relative. Everyone has different standards of black and white, or gray and grey, or blue and orange. 

Things that are immoral to me are things that prevent me from accomplishing my goal. That includes myself. I'm not out for power. I'm not out to be a jackass. I'm out to stop the Reapers by whatever means are necessary. The only actions I do hesitate on are ones that have no logical or practical reason to exist.

As my link states: Necessity knows no law. 

Shepard himself even states about the Reapers and the nature of the War that will follow "A threat this big, and rules go out the window".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

OniTYME wrote...
I don't put Miranda in the top tier because she's not a person I see actually intimidating many people by presence alone. She's supposedly "2nd in command" at Cerberus but I get the feeling that many operatives and agents laugh behind her back when she leaves a room. Wrex, Javik, Samara, and Thane (and Morinth) command fear AND respect in addition to being the few people I'd see standing up to Shepard and winning as well as showing no fear, doubt, or intimidation whatsoever towards any challengers.

I don't know where you came up with the idea that people would laugh behind Miranda's back. It's shown, from listening in to many of the crewmembers on the Normandy, that Miranda is greatly respected on the ship. Joker even says that he's not going to say anything bad out of fear of the reprisal. And regardless, her track record is solid, and she's known to be cool and intimidating when it suits her.

I don't see Wrex as scary at all. He's a big frog turtle thing. He tries to be scary, and he gets a shotgun blast to the face. 

There's no one in the galaxy I see standing up to and defeating Shepard. Not even the Reapers. They came close, but Shepard ultimately prevailed. At least, for my Shepard. Your Shepard is your Shepard.

[Kataphrut94]

Wrex being intimidating is practically how he rose to power. See his bit with Uvenk when you first run into him on Tuchanka ("speak when spoken to"- he does), plus a lot of his talk about uniting the clans basically came down to "I will drag these guys kicking and screaming into the future".

As for Miranda, she certainly intimidates Joker, but so does everybody else (see my tiers). However, note that nobody disagrees or sticks up for her when Jack or Garrus say that nobody wants to take orders from her at the start of the suicide mission. This would suggest that she isn't particularly well respected on the ship; therefore, she can't be that intimidating. Admittedly, they are both proven wrong if she's chosen, but that can be chalked up to her just being a good strategist. It's the difference between "I will listen to this person, they're good at their job" versus "I'm going to obey this person because they make me feel inferior as a person". Miranda is the former, intimidation is the latter.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:19 .

[Xilizhra]

I think Miranda would have had some kind of ace in her sleeve.

What ace? And why hasn't it been used in combat up until now?

As my link states: Necessity knows no law.

You think more things are necessary than actually are, as my own playthrough proves beyond a doubt.

[Han Shot First]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If that catfight between Miranda and Jack had turned into a full on brawl, Miranda would have ended up a stain on the bulkhead. I like Miranda, but she is canonically weaker than Jack. 

Weaker, but also smarter, clever, and tactical.

I think Miranda would have had some kind of ace in her sleeve. Raw power alone does not necessitate survival.

I agree with that first sentence, but I think if that fight happened then and there Miranda was screwed. Both characters were unarmed which means it would have come down to biotics. As far as biotics go the only character that could probably take Jack is Samara.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Clear as day is Shepard intervening before things become heated. Miranda isn't spooked, but Shepard stands up to put Jack down before anything happens that he might regret.[/quote]

Shepard intervening was never in question, just the fact that within the course of the conversation, Jack gets in her face and it takes Miranda aback. I find it curious you'd deny this. You were claming Jack would be an idiot for not fearing Samara. So what does that make Miranda if she's truly not afraid of the big, angry, psychotic-biotic elephant in the room?

[/quote]

Practical. I'd say Miranda isn't so much afraid of the big, angry, psychotic-biotic elephant in the room as she is of the notion that said biotic will cause damage to the ship and endager the crew and the mission due to Jack's rage. And as I said, Shepard intervened before Miranda could react. Whatever you're seeing, I'm not seeing it at all. BTW, I'm claiming that Jack would be an idiot for not taking Samara seriously. I don't know about fear for her, but you'd think even she would know better than to provoke the Justicar. And also FIY, you're changing that argument there to be about Miranda and Jack, when the context of your next point was about Samara and Jack.

[quote]

[quote]It had to have started with Jack, considering she took the trouble to go up one deck and into Miranda's office. I doubt Miranda would spare Jack the time (or the danger to the ship) to summon her up just to berate her or insult her. Even if you hold off on Jack's loyalty mission or Miranda's, it seems that Jack is indeed the one starting drama.[/quote]

Oh it's completely possible Jack was summoned to Miranda's office.

Miranda is the 2IC on the ship. She writes mission reports that are sent to the Illusive Man. One mission is Jack going to Pragia. Miranda may not have been there and may have needed Jack's account. Shepard is often busy, after all.

(... and it wouldn't take very long for that to get out-of-hand).

In fact, I find it more likely that the ship's second-in-command would summon one of the crew to her office than the notion that Jack would ever choose to be there for any reason other than pure necessity... but that's just me.

[/quote]

It's possible - but not likely in the least. I'll tell you how reports work from experience. Who was in charge? Who lead the mission? Shepard did. Who's the person who has all the relevant information and saw everything that Jack saw? Shepard. He's who you're going to go talk to. And to my experience, this is how our Salute Reports and Ace Reports works go in the field. It's how our debriefings typically go. The commanding element, whether it be a team leader, a squad leader, a platoon leader, etc. gives his report on a mission, and gets the accounts of all the various leaders down the group chain of command. For example, a PL would be getting the reports from his SL's to add to his report, who in turn would be making their own reports after getting accounts from their TL's and then packaging it and sending it up to the PL as part of their own report. I've had to do this many, many times, and I've screwed up at it many, many times. Usually because I did try to talk to my Soldiers about their own accounts. Unless something controversial happened, I don't do this since it undermines my TL or SL's authority by not letting them sort of issue. I had a very stern talking too from both my Platoon Sergeant and my Company Commander about not only not undermining the authority of my Commanding Officers, but also the authority of my subordinates as well. 

Shepard saw everything that Jack saw. He was there for everything that she did and experienced on the mission. Shepard can give his report to Miranda and bam, you have everything you need. Shepard is busy... In a game that has considerable time-skips, given that the course of the games are over several weeks or months when they can in fact be completed in less than 2 or 3 days playing time. Shepard is going to be writing his own reports and forwarding them to Miranda, if not being debriefed by her himself. That's part of his responsibility as a leader to write mission reports.

As for the necessity of Jack being in Miranda's office, I find it much more likely that the slightly insane, very unstable and understandably angst and rage filled biotic (having just returned from a very emotionally compromising mission for her) would be going into the office of the highest ranking Cerberus official aboard the ship to... 'vent' about said organization and what happened to her because of them, rather than having the disciplined, professional, and reserved executive officer calling Jack into her office to more or less gloat if (IF) she was trying to get Jack's account of what happened on Pragia. Even in that circumstance, Jack would still almost overwhelmingly be the one to start something on the basis of her emotional problems (especially in the aftermath of said mission) due to perceived anger at something or another about Miranda.

Miranda is a target for Jack, because Miranda (by nature of being the highest ranking Cerberus official on the Normandy) is the human symbol of everything that went wrong with Jack. She's the human target because of her association with Cerberus. Jack is completely violent about Cerberus, so it's utterly no surprise that she'd lash out on the basis of angst over Pragia.

[quote]
[quote]You're trying to pull this that Miranda getting defensive about Cerberus is somehow the same reaction as Jack getting angry enough to endanger the ship's integrity?[/quote]

It was your claim that Miranda keeps her motivations and feelings in check.
[/quote]

Yes. She does. Much more so than Jack. Her becoming possibly irritated or flustered does not necessitate her losing control of her feelings. I don't see her stomping around trying to start fights aboard the ship, or ever really dropping her professional demeanor just because she's annoyed, possibly greatly so, by someone attacking Cerberus. This is a strawman argument on your part. You're changing the meaning of what I am saying to try to make it seem as if Miranda getting annoyed is on the same level as Jack threatening to go on a rampage.

[quote]
And I laugh at that, seeing as she gets super butthurt about any negative comment against Cerberus.
[/quote]

She really doesn't.

Read above. 

[quote]
Then there's also the fact that there was a fight in her office at all.[/quote]

There was. And yes, I believe Jack started it. You don't always get to pick the location of your fights. I've seen a Soldier go into a Captain's office with a loaded sidearm and it did devolve into a physical altercation. The Captain was defending himself, and rightly so. No shots were fired, and the Soldier was chaptered out on the grounds of severe PTSD. Does that mean Miranda, who may or may not have been targeted by Jack (and I've provided my own reasoning of why I believe Jack was the overwhelmingly most likely instigator of the fight)

[quote]
You've concluded that Jack just up and came to fight her because ~ooh, she hates Cerberus, and this based on the fact that... Jack was there.[/quote]

I've provided my reasoning on why Jack might be there. You're strawmanning my argument, and making an appeal to ridicule by making it seem as though my argument is utterly ridiculous without actually facing my argument, which I again provided in the paragraphs above, and in more depth for you.

[quote]
It is a complete and utter leap.[/quote]

As much a leap as it is for you to proclaim that Miranda called Jack into her office to gloat. As much a leap as it is for you to say that it must be Miranda's fault because the fight was in her office.

[quote]
We're not told -- for fact -- who started that fight. I think that was a conscious decision on the writer's part to leave that information out. To me, this is effectively telling us that... it doesn't matter. Both are at fault for letting it come to that.
[/quote]

You're right, we aren't. And regardless or not of what the writer's intent was. I will to you that to me, this whole scenario is telling us that... it shouldn't matter, but it does. I don't know what words Miranda said or what Jack did, but I'm going to base the scenario off what I believe is most likely. Since it is all a matter of speculation (as you yourself are saying), I'm going to go with an alternate account, based on my own experience with dealing with this sort of thing and my knowledge of the characters, the situation, and the game. 

[quote]
'Only way I see a fight break out between them is if they both choose to argue about Cerberus,in which case, Miranda would not be keeping her feelings in check. She'd be getting butthurt about Cerberus criticism (as she usually does).
[/quote]

This is more of a genetic fallacy than anything against Miranda. It's clear you aren't a fan of hers. I'm going to say that I believe this is grossly inaccurate. Miranda keeps her cool when arguing with Shepard about Cerberus. It seems to me that you are deliberately targeting and antagonizing Miranda, mainly by saying things that are frankly untrue. Miranda doesn't get butthurt and angry about Cerberus. She gets defensive and mildly annoyed at most, but that does not constitute breaking ones demeanor, unless that's how you define it (or as I believe you are making a double standard for Miranda because you are unfavorable to her).

The only way I see this fight occuring (doesn't matter what the topic is about) is if Jack started to get violent. Miranda would not be the one to get violent unless provoked, and the only thing that's going to provoke her in this instance is if she was physically threatened, as I believe she was. Jack makes it perfectly clear that she wants Miranda dead, so this is very likely to me as the cause of the altercation.

[quote]
[quote]I think it's rather justified. She didn't renounce her Code either.[/quote]

Yeah she did. It was at the end of her recruitment mission.

[/quote]

She pledged her service to Shepard. She did not renounce her code. And this was to Shepard only. She did not make a pledge to Jack, or Miranda, or anyone else. She agreed to follow Shepard's directives. I believe she's still capable of handing out her variation of justice so long as it doesn't interfere with Shepard's authority. While that might seem the case for Jack going on a rampage, I can tell you my Shepard would make it perfectly alright for Samara to put her down. Hell, Samara would have to get to her first before Shepard blasted her.

[quote]
[quote]And let's put it this way: Jack is verbally threatening to start violence for the sake of starting violence. She's not trying to be productive. She's talking about actively going out of her way to go on a killing spree for fun. If she's unstable enough to do that, then yes, Samara is justified in telling her to simmer down. And I believe Shepard would expect no less from Samara than to take her out if she becomes a liability due to lack of self-control.

*snip'd by H*

It would be a double standard if Samara or Miranda or anyone
else was threatening to go on a killing spree and I turned a blind eye
to it since Jack was doing it.

However, it is not a double
standard because Jack is threatening to go on a wanton violence run for
her own amusement. Samara stopping Jack from doing such is not
committing wanton unnecessary violence and destruction. It's her
stopping Jack from committing violence and destruction. 

Really,
what are you trying to imply by saying that Samara killing Jack for
being a wild animal that is dangerous and destructive to her allies as
being worse than Jack being a wild animal that is dangerous and
destructive to her allies? This seems like you're the one setting the
double standard for Jack.[/quote]


Perhaps you've forgotten that Jack is part of a small squad on an important mission? Whatever mischief she's claiming to plan on starting, she's not going to do now or anytime soon, if for no other reason than (1) being busy; (2) being under supervision. It's kind of obvious that that was just Jack being... Jack. Grunt and Wrex can go on about how they'll torture salarians, it doesn't mean they're literally going to, nor should anyone around them take action accordingly.
[/quote]

Yes. And she's by far the most unstable and unpredictable element. And I'm not claiming she will make any 'mischief' on the basis of the points you brought up. I'm going to say though that I'm not going to take her threats lightly, simply on the basis of her being so unstable and unpredictable. I am going to calmly, but sternly remind her what our mission is and what conduct is expected of her on this mission.

[quote]
In response to Jacob, Jack even said she was "just thinking out loud." Nothing more.

Samara doesn't recognize this, though, because she is socially-awkward and has no sense of humor. And, being the extremist she is, she turns to her "justice"-nonsense. Unlike Miranda, though, Jack doesn't take the bait and go fight.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but there is an element of lust to Jack's thoughts.

Samara doesn't need to recognize this. She's simply telling Jack what the consequences for said actions will be. You're being unfair to both Miranda and Samara here, especially in regards to Miranda, whom I believe you are outright lying about here.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Han Shot First wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If that catfight between Miranda and Jack had turned into a full on brawl, Miranda would have ended up a stain on the bulkhead. I like Miranda, but she is canonically weaker than Jack. 

Weaker, but also smarter, clever, and tactical.

I think Miranda would have had some kind of ace in her sleeve. Raw power alone does not necessitate survival.

I agree with that first sentence, but I think if that fight happened then and there Miranda was screwed. Both characters were unarmed which means it would have come down to biotics. As far as biotics go the only character that could probably take Jack is Samara.

I'd rather be surprised if Miranda didn't have some kind of armament on the Normandy, considering that Shepard, Tali, Garrus, Zaeed and Jack all have unsecured (and presumably hot) weapons on their persons at various points on the ship. I'd imagine that Miranda has her Shuriken or a Predator close by in her office.

[Xilizhra]

As for the necessity of Jack being in Miranda's office, I find it much more likely that the slightly insane, very unstable and understandably angst and rage filled biotic (having just returned from a very emotionally compromising mission for her) would be going into the office of the highest ranking Cerberus official aboard the ship to... 'vent' about said organization and what happened to her because of them, rather than having the disciplined, professional, and reserved executive officer calling Jack into her office to more or less gloat if (IF) she was trying to get Jack's account of what happened on Pragia. Even in that circumstance, Jack would still almost overwhelmingly be the one to start something on the basis of her emotional problems (especially in the aftermath of said mission) due to perceived anger at something or another about Miranda.

So what if you do Jack's loyalty mission before Miranda's.

I'd rather be surprised if Miranda didn't have some kind of armament on the Normandy, considering that Shepard, Tali, Garrus, Zaeed and Jack all have unsecured (and presumably hot) weapons on their persons at various points on the ship. I'd imagine that Miranda has her Shuriken or a Predator close by in her office.

I don't think that Jack needs armament, really. Or that a hand weapon could break through her barriers in time.

[trenq]

drunk tali owns everyone

[Sir DeLoria]

trenq wrote...

drunk tali owns everyone

Damn straight:D

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the necessity of Jack being in Miranda's office, I find it much more likely that the slightly insane, very unstable and understandably angst and rage filled biotic (having just returned from a very emotionally compromising mission for her) would be going into the office of the highest ranking Cerberus official aboard the ship to... 'vent' about said organization and what happened to her because of them, rather than having the disciplined, professional, and reserved executive officer calling Jack into her office to more or less gloat if (IF) she was trying to get Jack's account of what happened on Pragia. Even in that circumstance, Jack would still almost overwhelmingly be the one to start something on the basis of her emotional problems (especially in the aftermath of said mission) due to perceived anger at something or another about Miranda.

So what if you do Jack's loyalty mission before Miranda's.

Then, unless Miranda had called Jack up to discuss Jack and Cerberus (which I would find unlikely considering Miranda would be more focused on Oriana and her own emotional feelings from that mission), then what is the point of Jack going up to Miranda's office? I'm asking you this because I don't believe she has a point beyond moving up to antagonize Miranda.

I'd rather be surprised if Miranda didn't have some kind of armament on the Normandy, considering that Shepard, Tali, Garrus, Zaeed and Jack all have unsecured (and presumably hot) weapons on their persons at various points on the ship. I'd imagine that Miranda has her Shuriken or a Predator close by in her office.

I don't think that Jack needs armament, really. Or that a hand weapon could break through her barriers in time.

I think a weapon could, quite easily. You see Shepard shooting through barriers fairly easily. Then again, there is cutscene inconsistency. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Then, unless Miranda had called Jack up to discuss Jack and Cerberus (which I would find unlikely considering Miranda would be more focused on Oriana and her own emotional feelings from that mission), then what is the point of Jack going up to Miranda's office? I'm asking you this because I don't believe she has a point beyond moving up to antagonize Miranda.

It's probable that she was the one who entered of her own volition, but I believe it goes too far to say for certain that she did all of the antagonizing; her desire for some kind of discussion may well have started out as sincere and it only deteriorated over time.

I think a weapon could, quite easily. You see Shepard shooting through barriers fairly easily. Then again, there is cutscene inconsistency.

Also, Jack's are liable to be more powerful than those of most other biotics. Certainly, as we see in the Collector base, more powerful than Miranda's.

[rekn2]

it makes perfect sense to compare them in a vacuum. if jack did anything she would be insta jibbed by the remaining troops in normandy

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Practical. I'd say Miranda isn't so much afraid of the big, angry, psychotic-biotic elephant in the room as she is of the notion that said biotic will cause damage to the ship and endager the crew and the mission due to Jack's rage. And as I said, Shepard intervened before Miranda could react. Whatever you're seeing, I'm not seeing it at all.

Wait, I don't get it. If she's worried about damage to the ship and endangering the crew, she should probably also be worried about herself, seeing as she and her office are the closest immediate targets at the time this fight broke out. And then there's the fact that she's pouring fuel on the fire by making remarks like "But clearly, you were a mistake." Getting the angry and emotionally-unstable biotic even more angry is not practical by any definition of the word.

BTW, I'm claiming that Jack would be an idiot for not taking Samara seriously. I don't know about fear for her, but you'd think even she would know better than to provoke the Justicar. And also FIY, you're changing that argument there to be about Miranda and Jack, when the context of your next point was about Samara and Jack.

"Provoke" like Miranda provokes Jack with aforementioned insulting remarks?

It's possible - but not likely in the least. I'll tell you how reports work from experience. Who was in charge? Who lead the mission? Shepard did. Who's the person who has all the relevant information and saw everything that Jack saw? Shepard. He's who you're going to go talk to. And to my experience, this is how our Salute Reports and Ace Reports works go in the field. It's how our debriefings typically go. The commanding element, whether it be a team leader, a squad leader, a platoon leader, etc. gives his report on a mission, and gets the accounts of all the various leaders down the group chain of command. For example, a PL would be getting the reports from his SL's to add to his report, who in turn would be making their own reports after getting accounts from their TL's and then packaging it and sending it up to the PL as part of their own report. I've had to do this many, many times, and I've screwed up at it many, many times. Usually because I did try to talk to my Soldiers about their own accounts. Unless something controversial happened, I don't do this since it undermines my TL or SL's authority by not letting them sort of issue. I had a very stern talking too from both my Platoon Sergeant and my Company Commander about not only not undermining the authority of my Commanding Officers, but also the authority of my subordinates as well. 

Shepard saw everything that Jack saw. He was there for everything that she did and experienced on the mission. Shepard can give his report to Miranda and bam, you have everything you need. Shepard is busy... In a game that has considerable time-skips, given that the course of the games are over several weeks or months when they can in fact be completed in less than 2 or 3 days playing time. Shepard is going to be writing his own reports and forwarding them to Miranda, if not being debriefed by her himself. That's part of his responsibility as a leader to write mission reports.

I am well aware of your experience on this topic. However, what's true of life doesn't hold the same in the fictional world of Mass Effect, and this is especially evident where military procedure is concerned. I haven't played ME2 in a long while and cannot anyway -- the Xbox broke down -- but I am almost certain that Miranda clearly states she writes mission reports and sends them to TIM. And for a game, that makes sense, because Shepard is the PC and preocupied with other, video-gamey things. If you want to headcanon that Shepard does that job, cool (I don't use that word negatively, BTW; the power of headcanon helps compensate for a lot of writer derp in this story), but it can't reasonably be called into evidence here.

As much a leap as it is for you to proclaim that Miranda called Jack into her office to gloat. As much a leap as it is for you to say that it must be Miranda's fault because the fight was in her office.

I'm haven't concluding anything, in fact; I simply raised a possibility whereby Jack came to Miranda's office without looking for a fight. I maintain that no one truly knows, and there's little-to-no information to make any safe assumption, either.

I do have my own hypothesis on this, but I recognize it could be completely wrong.

This is more of a genetic fallacy than anything against Miranda. It's clear you aren't a fan of hers. I'm going to say that I believe this is grossly inaccurate. Miranda keeps her cool when arguing with Shepard about Cerberus. It seems to me that you are deliberately targeting and antagonizing Miranda, mainly by saying things that are frankly untrue. Miranda doesn't get butthurt and angry about Cerberus. She gets defensive and mildly annoyed at most, but that does not constitute breaking ones demeanor, unless that's how you define it (or as I believe you are making a double standard for Miranda because you are unfavorable to her).

I like Miranda's character well enough. I only ever dislike a character if I think they're written poorly -- namely Liara. But liking a character doesn't entail being blind to their negative qualities. If anything, I see faults as a point in their favor -- realistically, all people have good and bad qualities. And this "humanity" is a reoccuring theme with Miranda in particular.

Miranda is designed to be perfect, but like anyone else, she has flaws. One of those flaws is that she is an ideologue -- a blind follower of Cerberus in ME2 (until just before the ending). It makes her not very receptive to criticism of Cerberus, or to the people who voice it. Compare that to Jacob who acknowledges that some of the squad/crew does have valid reason to feel hostile towards them, and makes an effort to change their opinions by his own example. That is the right attitude.

I mainly chose the word "Butthurt" to lighten the mood here. In truth, it's not good word choice, because it connotates an exaggerated feeling of anger, bitterness, what have you. I'd be more accurate to say that she gets irked by those negative comments (from Shepard). Thing is, Shepard says these things from a position of respect. Jack, OTOH, is the kind of person Miranda would probably stick her nose up at, for obvious reasons. If Jack is to say something anti-Cerberus, I don't imagine Miranda would be willing to tolerate quite the same way she does from Shepard. Know what I mean?

The only way I see this fight occuring (doesn't matter what the topic is about) is if Jack started to get violent. Miranda would not be the one to get violent unless provoked, and the only thing that's going to provoke her in this instance is if she was physically threatened, as I believe she was. Jack makes it perfectly clear that she wants Miranda dead, so this is very likely to me as the cause of the altercation.

(This is also a response to the swaths of text I've cut, save for the Samara stuff which is just irrelevant at this point).

It was not an attempted physical altercation to begin with. It was a heated argument. It could have escalated to violence (which is why Shepard was asked to intervene) but it did not start there. Jack's beef is, "The Cheerleader won't admit that what Cerberus did to me was wrong" [sic]. If there was any doubt, Miranda responds by denying Cerberus was at fault. That's what they were fighting about. It was an argument over something that's a personal topic to both of them.

Sure, you had Jack hurling a chair at the wall, but it went nowhere near Miranda (a warning-shot, most likely).

If it were an altercation, that would be one thing, as one party could be seen as a victim and had the right to fight back. But again, it wasn't; it was a shouting-match. Both of them willingly took part, so there's no victim, and blame is shared.

And, for that reason, it doesn't matter who formally "started" it.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[eyezonlyii]

The biggest problem I have with Massively's views of the "necessity of war" is the fact that Cerberus was running these experiments well before the start of the Reaper threat. Most of the experiments we run into in ME1 are the results of Cerberus just f'in around with stuff because...no explanation given. If we had conclusive (in game, not external media) proof that TIM knew the reapers were coming a few decades ago, then I might bite and give them a pass for doing what had to be done. Also, not everyone in the Alliance was sitting on their thumbs during the series. The most logical reason they didn't really help in ME2 was because the game tok place in the Terminus systems. A large Alliance presence would have been insta-war and then all the nay sayers would be calling the Alliance derps for provoking said conflict. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[Vargeisa]

Joker versus space hamster?
Uhm... I'm not sure.
Joker maybe, but only because of the size difference.

[McFlurry598]

Grunt.