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Who could intimidate whom?


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#76
Clayless

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

I like the idea of intimidation tiers. Let's do this thing.

Top: Shepard, Hackett, Aria, Wrex, Samara, Zaeed - Intimidating through sheer presence
Second Top: TIM, Anderson, Grunt, Jack, Javik - Intimidating through power
Second Bottom: Garrus, Thane, Miranda, Jacob, Ashley, Liara - Not generally intimidating, can pull it off when they need
Bottom: James, Kaidan, Tali, Kasumi, Joker - Not intimidating at all

I'd put Mordin, EDI and Legion as redundant, since they would not be intimidated by anyone.


I largely agree with this. I would put Grunt below Jack and Javik though.

#77
eyezonlyii

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Robosexual wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I like the idea of intimidation tiers. Let's do this thing.

Top: Shepard, Hackett, Aria, Wrex, Samara, Zaeed - Intimidating through sheer presence
Second Top: TIM, Anderson, Grunt, Jack, Javik - Intimidating through power
Second Bottom: Garrus, Thane, Miranda, Jacob, Ashley, Liara - Not generally intimidating, can pull it off when they need
Bottom: James, Kaidan, Tali, Kasumi, Joker - Not intimidating at all

I'd put Mordin, EDI and Legion as redundant, since they would not be intimidated by anyone.


I largely agree with this. I would put Grunt below Jack and Javik though.


I'd move James and Kaidan up. James is a big guy, that's intimidateing enough, plus he does seem like he can pull off a mean streak if he had too. And as for Kaidan, I'm pretty sure if he playd up the wholw "I killed a biotic turian mercenary as a teenager" angle, he could move some people out the way himself.

#78
Sir DeLoria

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eyezonlyii wrote...

I'd move James and Kaidan up. James is a big guy, that's intimidateing enough, plus he does seem like he can pull off a mean streak if he had too. And as for Kaidan, I'm pretty sure if he playd up the wholw "I killed a biotic turian mercenary as a teenager" angle, he could move some people out the way himself.


Nah, James is a goofy meathead, he's not intimidating at all. Kaidan is way too much of a nice guy to be intimidating.

#79
FlyingSquirrel

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Kataphrut94 wrote...
Who's more intimidating- Garrus or Thane?


I'd say Thane because he comes off as a little calmer and more like he's thought through whatever he's doing. Garrus can be a bit of a hothead who will sometimes back off if urged to do so by Shepard.

#80
FlyingSquirrel

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Not seeing a flinch from Miranda. I'm rather seeing Miranda act more professional and not let her rampant emotions get unchecked, unlike Jack.


Calling Jack a "mistake" to her face is petty and also a cruel low blow. I'd *like* to think that comment came from her losing her temper - in her own icy, outwardly calm way - than from a reflection of what Miranda really thinks.

#81
in it for the lolz

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Hulk intimidates all!
all posts in this thread are invalid!Image IPB

#82
FlyingSquirrel

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It had to have started with Jack, considering she took the trouble to go up one deck and into Miranda's office. I doubt Miranda would spare Jack the time (or the danger to the ship) to summon her up just to berate her or insult her. Even if you hold off on Jack's loyalty mission or Miranda's, it seems that Jack is indeed the one starting drama.


The thing is, I don't really see Jack doing that either. If anything, Jack is a little more at peace after her loyalty mission, so why would she suddenly decide to go yell at Miranda - whom she has known all along to be a longtime Cerberus operative - after the visit to Pragia? If it always happened *right* after the Pragia mission, I could sort of see it as the wounds feeling especially fresh for Jack, but it makes little sense if it triggers after Illium and Oriana instead.

This is all just idle speculation, but I tend to imagine a passing exchange getting out of control. Jack sees Miranda and makes some wise-ass comment about being a "cheerleader" and what they found on Pragia, Miranda replies with a dismissive "it wasn't really Cerberus" and keeps walking back to her office, and that makes Jack lose it and go after her.

#83
Guest_Jesus Christ_*

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Why isn't Conrad Verner on this list? His sheer presence makes me jump out of my seat.

#84
MassivelyEffective0730

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eyezonlyii wrote...

The biggest problem I have with Massively's views of the "necessity of war" is the fact that Cerberus was running these experiments well before the start of the Reaper threat. Most of the experiments we run into in ME1 are the results of Cerberus just **** around with stuff because...no explanation given.


Well, there was an explanation: They were researching methods to give humanity an edge over other races. To create means to ensure that we have a chance in the event of conflict and resorting to darker and more unconventional means to bring humanity forward. 

I will admit that admiration for Cerberus requires one to hold a rather Machiavellian and Utilitarian philosophy. There's an excellent TV Trope for it, Unfettered. 

My only complaint is the eggregious nature of many of their projects. TIM resorted too often to methods for projects that could have been accomplished in less bloody and violent means. Not that I'm morally or ethically opposed to such means, but many of them weren't practical and were downright brutal for brutalities sake which ended up being very, very expensive for the organization. They all accomplished their goals despite the costs, but I still can't help but feel that Cerberus could have been much more economical in their methods.

Also, not everyone in the Alliance was sitting on their thumbs during the series.


Could have fooled me. Literally, everyone except for James Vega and his team were doing this. And even then, Cerberus was 40 steps ahead. By the time the alliance finally decides to 'act' against the Collectors, Commander Shepard and Cerberus have already defeated the threat. 

So yeah, it looked to me that every person in the alliance was indeed sitting with their thumb up their ass the whole series, and it took the Reapers invading Earth for them to conclude that maybe, just maybe, Shepard might not be such a nutcase about the Reapers after all.

The most logical reason they didn't really help in ME2 was because the game tok place in the Terminus systems. A large Alliance presence would have been insta-war and then all the nay sayers would be calling the Alliance derps for provoking said conflict. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.


It's logical, yes.

This point is also undermined by how it is quickly established that the alliance is with the Council in dismissing the threat. So I'm going to go with the alliance derping. Massively.

#85
MassivelyEffective0730

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FlyingSquirrel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It had to have started with Jack, considering she took the trouble to go up one deck and into Miranda's office. I doubt Miranda would spare Jack the time (or the danger to the ship) to summon her up just to berate her or insult her. Even if you hold off on Jack's loyalty mission or Miranda's, it seems that Jack is indeed the one starting drama.


The thing is, I don't really see Jack doing that either. If anything, Jack is a little more at peace after her loyalty mission, so why would she suddenly decide to go yell at Miranda - whom she has known all along to be a longtime Cerberus operative - after the visit to Pragia? If it always happened *right* after the Pragia mission, I could sort of see it as the wounds feeling especially fresh for Jack, but it makes little sense if it triggers after Illium and Oriana instead.

This is all just idle speculation, but I tend to imagine a passing exchange getting out of control. Jack sees Miranda and makes some wise-ass comment about being a "cheerleader" and what they found on Pragia, Miranda replies with a dismissive "it wasn't really Cerberus" and keeps walking back to her office, and that makes Jack lose it and go after her.


That still seems to me like Jack blowing up for no reason. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is at all Miranda's fault still. This really seems to me like Jack was gunning for a fight.

And noticing how H.Y.R. more or less concluded that we agree to disagree and used own interpretation, I'll use my own:

Jack was getting antsy and bloodthirsty and angsty over her mission on Pragia and decided to take it out on Miranda. Miranda may have reacted more personally than she should have, but considering that I believe Jack was out looking for conflict, it's justifiable.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:57 .


#86
MassivelyEffective0730

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FlyingSquirrel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Not seeing a flinch from Miranda. I'm rather seeing Miranda act more professional and not let her rampant emotions get unchecked, unlike Jack.


Calling Jack a "mistake" to her face is petty and also a cruel low blow. I'd *like* to think that comment came from her losing her temper - in her own icy, outwardly calm way - than from a reflection of what Miranda really thinks.


I'd say it was a mistake to say that, but not necessarily one of Miranda losing her temper so much as being a bitter statement about it being a mistake of adding Jack to the team.

That's what I interpret the line as. Miranda is expressing that Jacks addition to the team was a bad judgement on TIM's part. 

I agree with her. I'd skip recruiting Jack if I could. 

#87
Kataphrut94

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eyezonlyii wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I like the idea of intimidation tiers. Let's do this thing.

Top: Shepard, Hackett, Aria, Wrex, Samara, Zaeed - Intimidating through sheer presence
Second Top: TIM, Anderson, Grunt, Jack, Javik - Intimidating through power
Second Bottom: Garrus, Thane, Miranda, Jacob, Ashley, Liara - Not generally intimidating, can pull it off when they need
Bottom: James, Kaidan, Tali, Kasumi, Joker - Not intimidating at all

I'd put Mordin, EDI and Legion as redundant, since they would not be intimidated by anyone.


I largely agree with this. I would put Grunt below Jack and Javik though.


I'd move James and Kaidan up. James is a big guy, that's intimidateing enough, plus he does seem like he can pull off a mean streak if he had too. And as for Kaidan, I'm pretty sure if he playd up the wholw "I killed a biotic turian mercenary as a teenager" angle, he could move some people out the way himself.


I see what you're saying, it's just I've personally never gotten an intimidating vibe from James or Kaidan. They have the potential based on what you said, it's just not something I can see them actually doing. They're too nice, put simply.

#88
eyezonlyii

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

My only complaint is the eggregious nature of many of their projects. TIM resorted too often to methods for projects that could have been accomplished in less bloody and violent means. Not that I'm morally or ethically opposed to such means, but many of them weren't practical and were downright brutal for brutalities sake which ended up being very, very expensive for the organization. They all accomplished their goals despite the costs, but I still can't help but feel that Cerberus could have been much more economical in their methods.


What projects in ME1 actually went to plan? Everytime you visited a Cerberus facility, the experiments were running wild.

And you're really not morally or ethically opposed to projects and experiments that cause such pain and suffering for indeterminate outcomes? Really? I'm not sure whether to admire or admonish such a viewpoint. Like I said, had TIM known the Reapers were coming for decades, or had found out in ME1 and tried to warn the galaxy, I could almost understand the brutal and corner cutting method of what they were working on, but clearly as we see in ME1, they were dirty just to be dirty, and that I cannot fathom myself tolerating. If the game had allowed you to ask about the other pojects and Shepard was given realistic answers, then fine, but for eveytime you do ask, the answer is "Oh that cell got out of hand." How much control can he really have if all these cells can't keep it together?

#89
MassivelyEffective0730

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eyezonlyii wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

My only complaint is the eggregious nature of many of their projects. TIM resorted too often to methods for projects that could have been accomplished in less bloody and violent means. Not that I'm morally or ethically opposed to such means, but many of them weren't practical and were downright brutal for brutalities sake which ended up being very, very expensive for the organization. They all accomplished their goals despite the costs, but I still can't help but feel that Cerberus could have been much more economical in their methods.


What projects in ME1 actually went to plan? Everytime you visited a Cerberus facility, the experiments were running wild.


Read my link.

1) We don't actually know what the purpose of the experiments were.

2) Aside from the Rachni, which were acknowledged as a mistake in ME1 and ME2, everything we see was going to plan. Anything that went awry was out of Cerberus' control, mainly due to Shepard's intervention.

And you're really not morally or ethically opposed to projects and experiments that cause such pain and suffering for indeterminate outcomes? Really? I'm not sure whether to admire or admonish such a viewpoint.


Nope. As long as the end is worthy enough (and I deem Cerberus' ends as such), then I'm perfectly fine with whatever goes into the fruition of my goal.

I have only two criteria:

1) Does it help my goal, or does it impede it?

2) Is it practical and applicable and economical?

As I said, it's a very utilitarian and Machiavellian perspective. I'm not sure if it qualifies for what John Stuart Mill was aiming for, but it fits as I interpret it.

Like I said, had TIM known the Reapers were coming for decades, or had found out in ME1 and tried to warn the galaxy, I could almost understand the brutal and corner cutting method of what they were working on, but clearly as we see in ME1, they were dirty just to be dirty, and that I cannot fathom myself tolerating.


He did know the Reapers were coming. Part of his goal for Cerberus was to prepare humanity for their eventual arrival. Even though the Reapers weren't mentioned by name nor did TIM know as such, he did realize that something threatening was out there and was preparing to unleash its fury upon the galaxy.

As I said, we don't know what their objectives were, and I also know the reason they failed was because I interfered with them, which I do rather regret.

If the game had allowed you to ask about the other pojects and Shepard was given realistic answers, then fine, but for eveytime you do ask, the answer is "Oh that cell got out of hand." How much control can he really have if all these cells can't keep it together?


That was only used once. Most other projects weren't mentioned, nor did you have any real information on everything that was going on.

As I said, read my link. I have more, though I don't know if you'd like the blatant Cerberus fanboyism, even though I like to think they're solid arguments. 

I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing. 

#90
FlyingSquirrel

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I'd say it was a mistake to say that, but not necessarily one of Miranda losing her temper so much as being a bitter statement about it being a mistake of adding Jack to the team.

That's what I interpret the line as. Miranda is expressing that Jacks addition to the team was a bad judgement on TIM's part. 

I agree with her. I'd skip recruiting Jack if I could.


I guess I interpreted it as meaning more that Jack's entire existence was a mistake, which is why it bothered me - Jack's circumstances were forced upon her by Cerberus just as Miranda's history was forced upon her by her father. Which is why I figured she probably didn't really mean it and was just saying it in a sort of retaliation to Jack's aggression. And I'm not really saying that one or the other is at fault, just that I doubt Jack literally barged into Miranda's office to scream at her about Pragia without something happening to provoke one or both of them.

#91
Xilizhra

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I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing.

And by "practical," I assume you mean "get consistently worse results than full Paragons."

#92
MassivelyEffective0730

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Xilizhra wrote...

I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing.

And by "practical," I assume you mean "get consistently worse results than full Paragons."


Nope, I get great outcomes. Perfect even.

#93
eyezonlyii

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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think you like he representation Cerberus receives in ME2, and use that as the basis for your viewpoints, which honestly I don't have a problem with in and of itself, but the problem is that we're pretty much told that TIM is showing Shep the glossy ideal of what Cerberus is and no the real deal. I'm more ingrained with my impressions of ME1 Cerberus (I really discount ME3 Cerberus for all discussions). At this point, I recognize that neither one of us is going to change our minds, so rather than continue this discussion for more pages than it's worth, I'm going to try and make this my last point on the subject (though I really have no qualms about talking with you about it. it's more...enjoyable than some other people).

I guess if it came right down to it, had Cerberus in ME1 and Cerberus in ME2 been two completely different organizations, I could get behind TIM (up until the Collector base. he'll never get that from me)

#94
Xilizhra

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing.

And by "practical," I assume you mean "get consistently worse results than full Paragons."


Nope, I get great outcomes. Perfect even.

Only by inventing an outcome in headcanon. Let's stick to what's in the game itself, shall we?

#95
MassivelyEffective0730

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Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing.

And by "practical," I assume you mean "get consistently worse results than full Paragons."


Nope, I get great outcomes. Perfect even.

Only by inventing an outcome in headcanon. Let's stick to what's in the game itself, shall we?


I am. You're the one getting pooper peeved because I'm not a SJW who follows your rules for 'kindness'.

#96
Br3admax

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Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I acknowledge I'm cold, practical, and detached and dispassionate. I consider it a virtue. Compassion is a strength at times, and at others, it is an undoing.

And by "practical," I assume you mean "get consistently worse results than full Paragons."


Nope, I get great outcomes. Perfect even.

Only by inventing an outcome in headcanon. Let's stick to what's in the game itself, shall we?

Define better. Going full Paragon is stupid even in game. 

#97
MassivelyEffective0730

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eyezonlyii wrote...

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think you like he representation Cerberus receives in ME2, and use that as the basis for your viewpoints, which honestly I don't have a problem with in and of itself, but the problem is that we're pretty much told that TIM is showing Shep the glossy ideal of what Cerberus is and no the real deal. I'm more ingrained with my impressions of ME1 Cerberus (I really discount ME3 Cerberus for all discussions). At this point, I recognize that neither one of us is going to change our minds, so rather than continue this discussion for more pages than it's worth, I'm going to try and make this my last point on the subject (though I really have no qualms about talking with you about it. it's more...enjoyable than some other people).

I guess if it came right down to it, had Cerberus in ME1 and Cerberus in ME2 been two completely different organizations, I could get behind TIM (up until the Collector base. he'll never get that from me)


Eh, TIM didn't need to try and manipulate my Shepard. I know I'm being given the happy show, and I don't care. It's pretty easy to see, considering I still end up seeing so many other Cerberus experiments.

And I still support them. The only issues I have are those of economy, practicality, and utility.

As for the base, I'd give it to TIM if not for the fact that it's Reaper tech that is very dangerous to use, and really not worth the risk, even if it could net such a high gain IMO. I certainly trust it with TIM far more than I trust the alliance or Council goons. I reject all that 'soul of our species' crap as BS. I simply treat the base as if it were the One Ring of Sauron. If I could safely use it, I would, but it's too much of a black box and too unpredictable. Depending on how you view it, this is justified or too cautious. Nothing against TIM, but I don't think he can control it. No one can.

#98
Xilizhra

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I am. You're the one getting pooper peeved because I'm not a SJW who follows your rules for 'kindness'.

I wouldn't have shown up in here at all if you didn't constantly brag about your allegedly superior mindset.

#99
MassivelyEffective0730

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Xilizhra wrote...

I am. You're the one getting pooper peeved because I'm not a SJW who follows your rules for 'kindness'.

I wouldn't have shown up in here at all if you didn't constantly brag about your allegedly superior mindset.


I'm not bragging about my superior mindset. I'm simply stating that it is a mindset, and one that has wisdom behind it. 

You're the one who gets all worked up because people aren't paragons like you.

#100
Xilizhra

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I am. You're the one getting pooper peeved because I'm not a SJW who follows your rules for 'kindness'.

I wouldn't have shown up in here at all if you didn't constantly brag about your allegedly superior mindset.


I'm not bragging about my superior mindset. I'm simply stating that it is a mindset, and one that has wisdom behind it. 

You're the one who gets all worked up because people aren't paragons like you.

Thus far, I've encountered no wisdom from said mindset.