76 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

Elhanan wrote...

Funny that, as I try and take Blind Fight as early in the build as possible to offset Invisibility; not Epic feats.

Im taking expersise/improved expertise at 1st level and still/silent spell at 3rd to increase number of my offensive spells (stilled burning hands, stilled fireball - usually making high ac sorcerer with autostill later so I take still) then extend, empower, maximized, toughness at 15 (since earlier its benefits are yet too low to overcome benefits of already taken feats) and combat casting at 18 (only as a prereq for icc) and then I still need to take power attack and divine shield at epic levels.
But if it would be low lvl environment a lvl 18 would be the only place to take it, but thats usually where the story ends right?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Elhanan]

Normally only take Extend and Empowered as meta-magic feats myself; prefer other options.

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

However, one example that does come to mind is a Drow infested forest with lower lvl characters; possibly AL1, but am uncertain.

AL1?

ShaDoOoW wrote...

then I still need to take power attack and divine shield at epic levels.

Sheesh.  Does everyone abuse paladin levels as a sorc?

I get that it's powerful, but...blargh. Makes me happy to see stuff like "Paladins can only get 1 saving throw per level," "Minimum 5 levels per class", or similar things.

Elhanan wrote...

Normally only take Extend and Empowered as meta-magic feats myself; prefer other options.

Why in the world would you not want to be able to cast Maximized Firebrands/Cone of Colds/Ice Storms/IGMS?

I cannot think of a single feat more important for mages than either of Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. An argument *could* be made for maybe skipped Silent/Still Spell in some environments, but otherwise?

[Elhanan]

MagicalMaster wrote...

I cannot think of a single feat more important for mages than either of Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. An argument *could* be made for maybe skipped Silent/Still Spell in some environments, but otherwise?

ALAZANDER
AL1: Siege of Shadowdale
AL2: Crimson Tides of Tethyr
AL3: Tyrants of Moonsea

Again, uncertain if this was the series, but may have been.

I have used it for some High lvl caster mods by Hugie and others, but usually do not need it for many mods. As for PW's, on Aenea I have access to meta-magic staves if needed; usually don't. While others may agree with you, I skip picks like this and Dev Crit.

Modifié par Elhanan, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...
Sheesh.  Does everyone abuse paladin levels as a sorc?

Would you prefer to abuse monk levels?  Just 3 levels of monk and then stack mass haste with expeditious retreat.  You can outrun the clerics without any need to worry about casting a spell in their silence aura.

Modifié par WhiZard, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Westan Willows]

I never use BF. For me it is a waste. I take Luck of Heroes

Modifié par Westan Willows, 14 novembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[CalSailX]

MagicalMaster wrote...
Sheesh.  Does everyone abuse paladin levels as a sorc?

Abuse... Evil laugh... sorry pretty boy/girl.... would you not like that pally "save".... Muhaaaha. 

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

ALAZANDER
AL1: Siege of Shadowdale
AL2: Crimson Tides of Tethyr
AL3: Tyrants of Moonsea

Interesting, never heard of that series.  I'll check it out, thanks.

Elhanan wrote...

I have used it for some High lvl caster mods by Hugie and others, but usually do not need it for many mods. As for PW's, on Aenea I have access to meta-magic staves if needed; usually don't. While others may agree with you, I skip picks like this and Dev Crit.

Meta-magic staves would definitely be the exception to the rule, you can hardly claim you'll always have those (and frankly, I strongly disagree with putting fundamental feats like that on gear).

WhiZard wrote...

Would you prefer to abuse monk levels?  Just 3 levels of monk and then stack mass haste with expeditious retreat.  You can outrun the clerics without any need to worry about casting a spell in their silence aura.

I'd prefer not to abuse any mechanics.

What does Mass Haste and Expeditious Retreat have to do with anything, though?  They don't stack, there's a cap of 50% movement speed increase from non-monk levels.

CalSailX wrote...

Abuse... Evil laugh... sorry pretty boy/girl.... would you not like that pally "save".... Muhaaaha.

Sorry, I only speak English and some Spanish and whatever you said is clearly neither of those languages.

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...

What does Mass Haste and Expeditious Retreat have to do with anything, though?  They don't stack, there's a cap of 50% movement speed increase from non-monk levels.

They do stack, and with monk speed the cap is (200 + monk speed)% increase (or 3.0 + monk speed times normal speed).  A sorcerer with three monk levels and mass haste and expeditious retreat moves at 2.725 base speed (more than 80% faster than the 1.5 times base speed that non-monks with haste are capped at).

[MagicalMaster]

WhiZard wrote...

They do stack, and with monk speed the cap is (200 + monk speed)% increase (or 3.0 + monk speed times normal speed).  A sorcerer with three monk levels and mass haste and expeditious retreat moves at 2.725 base speed (more than 80% faster than the 1.5 times base speed that non-monks with haste are capped at).

They don't stack without monk levels.

They might stack with 3 monk levels, I thought you were simply saying the monk gave a further 10% bonus.  Not that it made the other two spells stack.

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

They do stack, and with monk speed the cap is (200 + monk speed)% increase (or 3.0 + monk speed times normal speed).  A sorcerer with three monk levels and mass haste and expeditious retreat moves at 2.725 base speed (more than 80% faster than the 1.5 times base speed that non-monks with haste are capped at).

They don't stack without monk levels.

They might stack with 3 monk levels, I thought you were simply saying the monk gave a further 10% bonus.  Not that it made the other two spells stack.

Just because there is a 1.5 times movement speed cap, doesn't mean that two 50% bonuses cannot stack.  For instance if you had a movement penalty from grease and then cast both expeditious retreat and mass haste, you would see that they indeed stack.  Three monk levels raise the cap; they do not technically make the other effects stack (as they already do stack).

[MagicalMaster]

First, is there a reason you keep saying Mass Haste specifically? Works with Haste on items too.

Second, simply saying "Haste and ER stack" makes people think you'll gain a benefit from having both effects -- which isn't true in general. It is only true with 3+ levels or monk or if you get slowed.

I mean, technically having a +20 weapon and a +20 magical AB bonus stack, in a strict sense, but that winds up not being meaningful and misleads people unless you clarify greatly.

[WhiZard]

Mass haste is mentioned specifically because the spell haste is scripted to remove expeditious retreat (and expeditious retreat is scripted to not be applied to a creature under the spell haste).

Thus I do not say "Haste and ER stack" specifically because that statement can easily be interpreted as the spell haste stacks with ER.

Second, there is no reason to say that because to things stack that one should expect a further benefit. The category to which both effects apply is one that allows stacking (although the haste effect is hard-coded to only be considered once in the case of multiple instances). I would not put in a description for dragon shape that its AC bonus does not stack with dodge AC bonuses. This may lead people to think that there is something quirky about how a +20 bonus is considered, or that the AC bonus may not be dodge AC.

Nevertheless, there is practical use for combining mass haste and expeditious retreat for those without monk levels. If your character filled up with gear and was heavily encumbered, then stacking the two will really help progress the game as it may take some time to reach the nearest merchant.

May I also point out that my statement on stacking expeditious retreat and mass haste was in the context of having three monk levels. Your statement that the two cannot stack was referencing this claim. The correct terminology is that speeds are capped at a 50% bonus for non-monks, which you should have stated. By stating it the other (false) way, I had to clarify and correct your error, and you only managed to mislead people (yourself included) because greater clarification was needed.

[MagicalMaster]

WhiZard wrote...

Mass haste is mentioned specifically because the spell haste is scripted to remove expeditious retreat (and expeditious retreat is scripted to not be applied to a creature under the spell haste).

True, but it works perfectly fine with Haste from items.

WhiZard wrote...

This may lead people to think that there is something quirky about how a +20 bonus is considered, or that the AC bonus may not be dodge AC.

But you would say how Dodge AC stacks but only up to a cap of 20 if talking about the functioning of Dodge AC stacking.

WhiZard wrote...

May I also point out that my statement on stacking expeditious retreat and mass haste was in the context of having three monk levels. Your statement that the two cannot stack was referencing this claim.

I was referencing the fact that normally you cannot get more than a 50% movement speed increase over the base amount.  It was not clear from your statement that having monk speed fundamentally altered game mechanics -- simply that it provided an extra movement speed bonus.

If you had said "Haste and Expeditious Retreat stack as long as you have 3 monk levels to increse the maximum movement rate" that would have been far clearer.  Otherwise people who were not aware of that fact (including myself) may think you are saying Haste and Expeditious Retreat in general.

I was certainly at fault for not realizing Monk speed altered the situation beyond a 10% movement speed, but anyone else who didn't realize this would be equally confused by your original statement, I suspect.

[WhiZard]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

But you would say how Dodge AC stacks but only up to a cap of 20 if talking about the functioning of Dodge AC stacking [/quote]

I would say that dodge AC stacks with a cap of +20.  If you really wanted to you could stack dodge AC past 127 to get a score of -128 when all you had were positive increases.  Although this is somewhat inaccurate as when a dodge bonus is versus something (such as alignment, damage type, or racial type) it gets filtered into a separate stacking category with no +20 cap.

[/quote]

[MagicalMaster]

You get my point, though -- it is very, very easy to draw the wrong conclusion about stacking unless you (general you) are very, very clear.

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...

You get my point, though -- it is very, very easy to draw the wrong conclusion about stacking unless you (general you) are very, very clear.

It is very, very easy to draw the wrong conclusion about not stacking.  Having promoted speed stacking for well over two years now, I have had few problems communicating how these things stack.  Before I talked about speed stacking, there were quite a few nay-sayers who by claiming that positive speed sources never stack actually disinterested people in testing what was going on.  In contrast, there was Kail Pendragon, who did a lot with showing the quirky behavior of stacking haste with monk speed, but that was about as far as accurate testing and calculations went.  Another set back to the speed stacking discovery was that some people were merely changing their base movement speed to walking thinking that this would be a negative effect which would give the positive effects more room to stack.  So many sources claimed that positive sources of movement speed could not stack, thus I had a significant barrier to cross, in order to find out how speed stacking actually worked.

In the dodge AC example, if I buffed myself with +20 dodge from dragon shape, + 5 dodge from epic mage armor, + 1 dodge from mage armor, and  + 4 dodge from haste, then I got hit with curse song for a -5 dodge penalty and then taunt for another -5 dodge penalty, I would still have +20 dodge AC. But if I merely had dragon shape, I would have 10 dodge AC after the decreases were applied.  According to your terminology, the AC from the first example does not stack until I got hit with the curse song, in which case some of it stacks, and then when I got hit with taunt, all of it stacks.  This way of phrasing causes much confusion as it keeps on changing whether or not things stack after they have already been added together.  It brings with it the assumption that there is no reason to describe any dodge AC amount as being greater than +20.  I myself have described an AC bonus this way, in fact it was crucial to accurately describe the AC bonus for the mithral golem polymorph.  The +30 dodge AC resists taunt and curse song the same way that the dragon shape buffed with haste, mage armor, and epic mage armor would.  It would take at least an 11 point reduction to cause any difference in the AC of this form.

Modifié par WhiZard, 16 novembre 2013 - 09:27 .

[tobtor]

I thank you for the answers. I now think I know which feats to take.

I just have a follow up question regarding attributes. I count on going for 18 cha at creation, and boosting con to 14 for some extra hit points (and better fortitude). I am going to play with a melee type character, so I assume its OK to leave strength at 8? Ranged I would be using a crossbow so it wouldn't affect anything, and close combat will fast be pointless anyway, right?

That leaves a few points for other stats. If I take at least 10 in WIS INT and DEX I can raise one of them to 12, and I am wavering between DEX and INT. As I can see it DEX will affect my ability with ranged weapons and my reflex save, while INT will give me more skill points and give a bonus to a few skills (spellcraft, lore etc). Is there anything I should have focus on? I am tempted to go for INT since I like to have some not-combat oriented skills (social skills using the high CHA as well as some crafting), and I am wondering if 12 dex rather than 10 will make a difference in the long run? How important is dex to a sorcerer?

[Elhanan]

Personally, I could not play with a STR in penalty mode; too much loot to carry in lower lvls. Even a Halfling Rogue must carry his haul. But then, I could not play a PC that is reliant on CHA, so what do I know....

Modifié par Elhanan, 18 novembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[MagicalMaster]

tobtor wrote...

I just have a follow up question regarding attributes. I count on going for 18 cha at creation, and boosting con to 14 for some extra hit points (and better fortitude).

Yes, that's a minimum.  In general, I would suggest one of the following stat spreads:

8 Str
8 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
8 Wis
18 Cha

That gives you 2 points to put into Str, Dex, or Wis -- I typically go with Wis, especially for modules which have "insight" options or whatever.

Alternatively, go...

8 Str
8 Dex
16 Con
12 Int
8 Wis
18 Cha

That gives you more HP at the cost of a skill point and two generally irrelevant points.  I would say those two are the "classic" traditionalist sorcerer builds.

If you have a specific idea for a build then you can certainly change those stats -- a full plate sorcerer I made for a particular PW started with...

14 Str
8 Dex
14 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
16 Cha

I might have had 10 Dex and 8 Wis, I forget some of the specifics of the world.  However, the world also had a far improved version of Tenser's where my sorcerer actually had a good presence in melee plus good defenses and a bunch of IGMSes.

tobtor wrote...

I am going to play with a melee type character, so I assume its OK to leave strength at 8? Ranged I would be using a crossbow so it wouldn't affect anything, and close combat will fast be pointless anyway, right?

Correct.  The difference between 8 and 10 strength is very little anyway for carrying early on and later you'll likely have bags of holding available (or someone else to carry full plates and the like).

tobtor wrote...

I am tempted to go for INT since I like to have some not-combat oriented skills (social skills using the high CHA as well as some crafting), and I am wondering if 12 dex rather than 10 will make a difference in the long run? How important is dex to a sorcerer?

I would agree on the Int.  Dex is fairly irrelevant to a sorcerer -- the only time it possibly matters is the first few levels for ranged attacks with crossbows and for a few more AC.  Once you get past level, say, 10, your AC either is going to be irrelevant (because it's so low even with 14 Dex) or you're going Full Plate which means you don't need Dex anyway (can Cat's Grace to get up to 12 from 8 if needed or you might not have any good equipment options besides a dex item).

[Westan Willows]

I don't use that build.
I go for a balance build

For Sorc/RDD

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 12
 INT  16
WIS 14
CHA 14

For pure Sorc

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 10
INT    16
WIS   12
CHA 16

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

I don't use that build.
I go for a balance build

And both of those builds are significantly worse -- you're losing out on your primary casting stat and a significant chunk of HP in exchange for...1 more skill point?  You're not a wizard, don't go above 14 int.  5 more pounds you can carry?  Bull's Strength, Bags of Holding, Magic Bags, henchmen, or friends.  1 more AC?  Either you can Cat's Grace to get 12 Dex even from 8 or your AC will be so awful it won't matter anyway.

In short, don't use those builds.

[Shadooow]

I would never put wisdom to any sorcerer character. Not even in singleplayer module where are the conversation choices based on wisdom because:
1) in such modules there are also choices based on intelligence and charisma anyway
2) every such conversation is and must be solveable without it anyway
3) you lose hitpoints, skill points or casting power for what, three better choices in conversation thorought entire module?

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough
- 10str isn't that bad choice, its not 10 pound difference but 23 if you have +5str from buffs/items and more if you have higher increase from items/buffs which can be usefull in modules where you cannot load henchmens or persisten worlds, in official campaigns its needless though
- more than 8 dexterity for a sorcerer would be useably only for a arcane archer build which needs 16 at least anyway

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Elhanan]

I like 14 INT for Experise and extra bonus skills, but would not go beyond that for a Sorcerer.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough

Environment dependent -- the example I gave had a Tenser's that was actually very good so an extra AB and damage was very nice as I actually meleed a lot.

Also, unless you put 17 into Cha, you're going to have a spare point floating around if you put 13 in Str -- might as well make it 14.