76 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Also, unless you put 17 into Cha, you're going to have a spare point floating around if you put 13 in Str -- might as well make it 14.

tenser polymorph has constant strength, base strength does not improve it

yes indeed with 13str you get 17cha which is not disadvantage but advantage

with 14str you can have only 16cha and either 10dex or 10wis which both are totally useless

17cha will:
1) grants you access to bonus slots from ability score in average 4 levels earlier - not mentioning that from start you usually find only +1 items for charisma which is just cloak by default so you can have even score sooner
2) at epic levels it spares one great charisma feat which can player exchange for hellball or the best feat for caster blind fight

And yes, in lvl 20 only persistent worlds, this might be disadvantage, but thats quire rare environment. In single players this doesnt matter - player dont know how many levels he get and also rarery gets +12bonus to charisma on items. In lvl 30/40 environment this has only advantages.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

tenser polymorph has constant strength, base strength does not improve it

I keep mentioning that it was a custom version of the spell but you keep assuming!

"Tenser's Transformation
- caster gains 2d4 STR and DEX, d6 hit points per caster level and +1
base attack bonus per 2 caster levels. You no longer polymorph into a
doom knight so you get to keep spell slots gained via magic items that
polymorphs unequip. AC bonus is now a +4 natural, not a +4 dodge. Simple
and Martial Weapon Proficiencies are added to your character via a
temporary feat addition to the character's currently equipped armor.
100% Spell Failure for duration, even from items."

ShaDoOoW wrote...

yes indeed with 13str you get 17cha which is not disadvantage but advantage

with 14str you can have only 16cha and either 10dex or 10wis which both are totally useless

Or maybe there's not an epic feat that would be more worthwhile than being able to drop a Great Charisma in that particular build.

And if you'll read up you'll notice I start nearly 100% of my sorcerers with 18 Charisma.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...
I keep mentioning that it was a custom version of the spell but you keep assuming!

"Tenser's Transformation
- caster gains 2d4 STR and DEX, d6 hit points per caster level and +1
base attack bonus per 2 caster levels. You no longer polymorph into a
doom knight so you get to keep spell slots gained via magic items that
polymorphs unequip. AC bonus is now a +4 natural, not a +4 dodge. Simple
and Martial Weapon Proficiencies are added to your character via a
temporary feat addition to the character's currently equipped armor.
100% Spell Failure for duration, even from items."

I fail to see where you mentioned, that you builded sorcerer with this stats for custom modification of Tenser polymorph.
I fail to understand why you are giving advices that are assuming custom content changes when this thread is about general environment.

MagicalMaster wrote...
And if you'll read up you'll notice I start nearly 100% of my sorcerers with 18 Charisma.

But you suggested a stats choice where was 16charisma only. And I agree that 16is enough for a build with divine shield synergy. Which I assumed is the final outcome of that stat spread.
Also 13str doesn't exclude charisma if player decide he needs it, +2con -1int works great too.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I fail to see where you mentioned, that you builded sorcerer with this stats for custom modification of Tenser polymorph.

Right here:

MagicalMaster wrote...

If you have a specific idea for a build then you can certainly change those stats -- a full plate sorcerer I made for a particular PW started with...

14 Str
8 Dex
14 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
16 Cha

I might have had 10 Dex and 8 Wis, I forget some of the specifics of the world.  However, the world also had a far improved version of Tenser's where my sorcerer actually had a good presence in melee plus good defenses and a bunch of IGMSes.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I fail to understand why you are giving advices that are assuming custom content changes when this thread is about general environment.

Because I was pointing out that there ARE cases where you can change these starting stats and gave a specific example -- not to mention changing Tenser's is one of the more common changes I've seen.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But you suggested a stats choice where was 16charisma only. And I agree that 16is enough for a build with divine shield synergy. Which I assumed is the final outcome of that stat spread.

Nah, 38 Sorc/1 Paladin/1 Monk.  Had +6 Dodge from Boots (maybe 5, I forget), 4 from Haste, 1 from Mage Armor, and 5 more from Epic Mage Armor.  Didn't have much room left for Divine Shield anyway.

Sure, I could have tweaked that build a bit more potentially but it wasn't really important -- server ended once you hit 40 anyway and you just started again.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 20 novembre 2013 - 01:18 .

[Westan Willows]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I would never put wisdom to any sorcerer character. Not even in singleplayer module where are the conversation choices based on wisdom because:
1) in such modules there are also choices based on intelligence and charisma anyway
2) every such conversation is and must be solveable without it anyway
3) you lose hitpoints, skill points or casting power for what, three better choices in conversation thorought entire module?

- also giving 14str is pointless, if you go for a armored caster, 13 is enough
- 10str isn't that bad choice, its not 10 pound difference but 23 if you have +5str from buffs/items and more if you have higher increase from items/buffs which can be usefull in modules where you cannot load henchmens or persisten worlds, in official campaigns its needless though
- more than 8 dexterity for a sorcerer would be useably only for a arcane archer build which needs 16 at least anyway

I put wisdom for WILL save not for conversation. I don't like going below 10 on abilitis. My Sorc has a yellow streek and will avoied close encounters. He will hit you with fireballs, MM etc from as far away as posible. :happy:

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

ALAZANDER
AL1: Siege of Shadowdale
AL2: Crimson Tides of Tethyr
AL3: Tyrants of Moonsea

FWIW, Siege of Shadowdale had lots of drow and some invisible enemies but I was never in a situation where I wished I had Blind Fight.  It's possible you were thinking of another module but also possible you're simply far overestimating the value for a sorcerer -- and I'm prone to suspect the latter.

[Shadooow]

Westan Willows wrote...

I put wisdom for WILL save not for conversation. I don't like going below 10 on abilitis. My Sorc has a yellow streek and will avoied close encounters. He will hit you with fireballs, MM etc from as far away as posible. :happy:

will? protection against good/evil grant immunity to 99% will saving throws, clarity to the rest, not to mention that in singleplayer modules there are usualy mind immunity/fear immunity items, and that +1will hardly makes a difference and that with 1paladin level you get much more to saves

[Elhanan]

MagicalMaster wrote...

FWIW, Siege of Shadowdale had lots of drow and some invisible enemies but I was never in a situation where I wished I had Blind Fight.  It's possible you were thinking of another module but also possible you're simply far overestimating the value for a sorcerer -- and I'm prone to suspect the latter.

While possibly quite true, I have yet to create a long term character without this feat. It may be an overestimation over the mechanics, but not of it's worth to me. It is by far my fave Feat in the game.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW, I think Westan is beyond help, unfortunately. You're wasting your breath.

Elhanan, I'd suggest trying to make a mage without it and see how it goes. I doubt you'll miss it.

[Westan Willows]

MagicalMaster wrote...

ShaDoOoW, I think Westan is beyond help, unfortunately. You're wasting your breath.

Elhanan, I'd suggest trying to make a mage without it and see how it goes. I doubt you'll miss it.

Quiting so soon? Instead of telling me how dumb I am why don't you explain 'WHY your built is better?

I am trying your first built and there doesn't seem to be much difference in play. His persude is better and thats it.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Nah, 38 Sorc/1 Paladin/1 Monk.  Had +6 Dodge from Boots (maybe 5, I forget), 4 from Haste, 1 from Mage Armor, and 5 more from Epic Mage Armor.  Didn't have much room left for Divine Shield anyway.

Well 3-4remaining AC isn't really much and divine shield would be quite a waste. Though, it has advantages, you dont need boots for AC at all so you can wear boots with constitution instead (general advice higly depends on equipment available, equipment rarity and variety). Especially in modules with no post-max-lvl content this might be highly useable since you generally get divine shield at lvl 21 where you dont yet have neither epic mage armor neither such great boots.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

Quiting so soon? Instead of telling me how dumb I am why don't you explain 'WHY your built is better?

I am trying your first built and there doesn't seem to be much difference in play. His persude is better and thats it.

Because I have 1-2 more DC on every spell.  Because I have 2-4 more spells to cast every day.  Because I have 10-20% more hit points.  Those are the advantages.

The disadvantages? 1-2 lost AC which doesn't matter (since we're not talking about armored builds).  Some very slight carrying capacity lost which doesn't matter.  1-2 less Will save which doesn't matter (for the reasons ShaDoOoW mentioned).

In other words, I can name three distinct advantages for my guilds which are all important to the very idea of being a sorcerer and being stronger -- harder to resist spells, more spells, more health.

What do your builds offer?

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Well 3-4remaining AC isn't really much and divine shield would be quite a waste.

That's what I meant by "not much room," didn't mean feats.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 23 novembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[Westan Willows]

When do I get these 2-4 more spells? Ac I care less about. I have spells for that and like I said I stay away from melee.

[Westan Willows]

I am looking for a Arcane Archer build. Any ideas? Must be playable in SoU. He must continue to be able to cast spells. I enjoy playing the game. I an NOT into making builds so any help will be appreciated.

[MagicalMaster]

Well, compared to your "pure Sorc" build you'd have 1 more Charisma modifier. Let's say your build has 10 Charisma. My build would have 11 Charisma, which is an extra level 3 and level 7 spell. If your build had 12 Charisma, mine would have 13 -- which is an extra level 1, 5, and 9 spell. Every Charisma modifier gives at least two extra spells per day.

See this link for more information: http://nwn.wikia.com...ls#Spellcasting

And I was saying one of the very slight advantages of YOUR build was some more AC -- and like you said, it is fairly irrelevant so it's not even really an advantage. My build gives up some useless AC for better spellcasting and defenses (hit points).

[Westan Willows]

My "pure Sorc" is now
Str 10
Dex 8
Con 14
Wis 8
Int 14
Cha 18
He just finish ch1 final and with Clarity(spell not pot) Amulet of will +3 and magic missile put out 3 Bodars.
My old build would have lost

[tobtor]

Thanks for all the good advice.

I will not go for 8wis, though I can easily see why it is the better build from a mechanic point of view. But the way I imagine my character, he does not have a wisdom penalty. So my build will be:
str 8
dex 10
con 14
wis 10
int 12
cha 18

Thanks again.

[Westan Willows]

Do I really need 'lore'? For RDD you need 8 lore but after that I could cast ID and jack up my lore to check a item or two. Also some of the buffs will go in extend and empower/maximize at the same time. At level 4 I use 'extended' shield using a 2nd lv slot and saving my 1st level slots for magic missile. I can cast 7 mm that way and my shield last longer. .

[Shadooow]

Westan Willows wrote...

Do I really need 'lore'? For RDD you need 8 lore but after that I could cast ID and jack up my lore to check a item or two.

not really especially in modules where you can pay for identifying, usually it costs just 100gp so why bother use skill - though there are some special riddles in some modules (particularry HotU campaign) where is Lore used for some actions. I wouldnt take lore in multiplayer-PW module, but in singleplayer why not.

Also some of the buffs will go in extend and empower/maximize at the same time. At level 4 I use 'extended' shield using a 2nd lv slot and saving my 1st level slots for magic missile. I can cast 7 mm that way and my shield last longer. .

check my feat suggestion for sorcerer I wrote on page 2. If you take still/silent spell at lvl 3 you can then cast burning hand/magic missile at lvl 2 so you will not have 7 but twice that much uses.

[MagicalMaster]

The only times you need lore as a mage are as follows:

1, lore checks are in conversations and you receive bonuses from having it

2, you need to ID items in the field (unable to access a merchant) AND cannot spare Identify casts for some reason

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...
2, you need to ID items in the field (unable to access a merchant) AND cannot spare Identify casts for some reason

possibly  wizard focused in necromancy school

[Westan Willows]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

MagicalMaster wrote...
2, you need to ID items in the field (unable to access a merchant) AND cannot spare Identify casts for some reason

possibly  wizard focused in necromancy school

Ok I took still spell. Now my quickslots look loke a row of magic missiles

[Westan Willows]

I have been playing for some time and still don't know what "casting defensively" is

[MagicalMaster]

Defensive Casting mode -- it's an option near counterspell. Means you have to make a Concentration check but don't trigger Attacks of Opportunity.

[Westan Willows]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Defensive Casting mode -- it's an option near counterspell. Means you have to make a Concentration check but don't trigger Attacks of Opportunity.

That sounds like melee combat. I try to avoid that.