82 réponses à ce sujet

[LoopyMama]

OK, thanks for checking this out, I know it's a tired subject but I'm NOT complaining about the endings, this is my view of the reason why there were terminals on the citadel for the crucible to interact with. It always bugged me that the red destroy and blue control had obvious terminals for Shep to use (other than to make it easy for the player!). After watching a you tube clip by someone I wish I could credit but I forgot their name and can't find it again (sorry), I began to think about the possibility that the crucible is as much a test by the AI Starchild as the citadel is a Reaper trap.

 Starchilds programing was to find a solution to the synthetics vs organics problem. In his experience with the cycles, he must have realised that organics may one day find a solution of their own or a race may appear that simply become aware and evolved enough to overcome the prejudice against other/synthetic forms of life. He appeases Shep at one point saying his solution no longer works so he must realise it is, potentially, fallible. He absorbs the collective knowledge of each 'apex' race from each cycle and turns them into a reaper along with the synthetics of that cycle. He tells you this in the EC ending arguments, so he has a lot of know how and insight. He also realises that the races need to work together to build the crucible, hopefully including the synthetics of the time which would mean that you need to make peace between the Geth and Quarians.

 Lets examine the results of each choice as if they are a test.

Control : Leviathon had the ability to indoctrinate and had almost total control over the galaxy and look what they did with it. Look what TIM wants to do with it. Absolute control by an organic race corrupts absolutely. Starchild doesn't want another organic race that wants control, he said that the Leviathon were part of the problem so that isn't the answer. Choosing control only lets Shep be indoctrinated fully and transmit that indoctrination to the rest of the galaxy via the mass relays. Reapers then have an easy time on clean up while everyone lives in dream land. Test failed.

Synthesis :  Combining synthetics and organics takes away a fundamental right to be who you are. It a type of rape, if you ask me, (which you didn't so ok, lets move on). Starchild says that his past experiments have failed. These attempts are probably the husks he now regularly uses as ground troops. Choosing to sacrifice your individuality and force synthisis on the entire galaxy shows you are not strong enough in your convictions to be trusted with the fate of the galaxy. Everyone, including Shep, is indoctrinated and controlled and again easy clean up. Test failed.

Destroy : This is the choice you need to make. You may have synthetic allies (Geth and EDI) and this choice may well kill you too, but it takes strength to sacrifice something you care about and even more strength and conviction to fight off the effects of indoctrination. Choosing destroy proves Starchild's solution is no longer needed and you have earned the right to live free and be trusted with your own fate and that of the galaxy. This shuts down Starchild and his reapers. You passed the test.

Refuse : Starchild has utter contempt for this option. It's suicide as far as he's concerned and you are too weak to make a decent choice. Let the next cycle produce a race with enough strength to make the hard choices.

 The only admitted loop hole in this theory is that at low EMS you only have the destroy option, but look at how annoyed Starchild is if you even reach him at that point. He says "Why are you here?" and "You have more choice than you deserve". He is supremely pissed that you have brought him a damaged or incomplete crucible that can only access the option he doesn't want you to have unless you deserve it. "Thanks for this damaged half-a** crucible, Shep." says Starchild. "How the f**k did you get it here? You better chose refuse or your entire galaxy is going up in flames as the relays explode. You deserve it!" As we have seen low EMS plus destroy literally destroys everything stopping the reapers and all life. 

 So they're my thoughts, thanks for reading. Any comments would be appreciated.

[Stakrin]

It is similar to the indoctrination theory in some ways.
It is an interesting take, but I think all choices do what they say (maybe Shep would go crazy eventually with all that power, especially renegade) and the catalyst is mad that tou have changed all if his previous calculations and proved him wrong, or in low ems option, mad that the only way is destroying him when I think he prefers synthesis because in the other two he is irrelavant

[AlanC9]

So this is basically IT without the indoctrination.

[dorktainian]

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.






yay an ending that makes sense..

Modifié par dorktainian, 11 novembre 2013 - 02:52 .

[JasonShepard]

FYI, Control and Synthesis people aren't going to like what you did there... (I include myself in that, but I do understand your reasoning.) Admittedly, "It's a test of character" bypasses my usual argument against deception style theories.

So. You have an interpretation that's valid (for you). That doesn't mean I'm not going to pick holes in it though. 

For example - if the Reapers have the technological capability to broadcast an indoctination wave across the galaxy - Why not do that the moment you start the invasion?
This is my main motivation for believing that the Crucible is NOT Reaper tech - it's capabilities are beyond what we've seen the Reapers do before, and there's never been any reason for them to hold back.

Second question: What about a low EMS game where your only choice is Control? (Need to have saved the Collector Base.) How does that fit into your test?

As for why the Crucible controls are on the Citadel... I'd say that they're not.
What you see is the unfolded tip of the Crucible:

Modifié par JasonShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[Stakrin]

dorktainian wrote...

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.

i thought that was the ending?

Modifié par Stakrin, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[LoopyMama]

AlanC9 wrote...

So this is basically IT without the indoctrination.

Yep.
I could never really accept that Shep was unconcious in London all the time as this leaves us with no ending at all, he would be a husk or wake up, and we don't know what would happen next.
The only thing I still don't like is the stupid elevator from nowhere that takes Shep to the Starchild.....Stupid elevators!

[LoopyMama]

Stakrin wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.




I thought that was the ending?

yay an ending that makes sense..

Interesting.
But the first reaper, Harbinger, was created from the Leviathon. If they were the first reaper how did they create something to fight or reprogram something made from their harvest?

[dorktainian]

Stakrin wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.

i thought that was the ending?

Why did Cerberus try to gain control of the Citadel?

For the Reapers?   or someone else?

Modifié par dorktainian, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:10 .

[LoopyMama]

JasonShepard wrote...

FYI, Control and Synthesis people aren't going to like what you did there... (I include myself in that, but I do understand your reasoning.) Admittedly, "It's a test of character" bypasses my usual argument against deception style theories.

So. You have an interpretation that's valid (for you). That doesn't mean I'm not going to pick holes in it though. 

Your welcome to pick holes, it's why I started the discussion in the first place:).
I haven't seen the pictures you posted before and I admit it's more than possible. Thank you.

[Argentoid]

The very early concept for the Crucible was probably from the Leviathans.

Modifié par Argentoid, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[LoopyMama]

JasonShepard wrote...

So. You have an interpretation that's valid (for you). That doesn't mean I'm not going to pick holes in it though. 

For example - if the Reapers have the technological capability to broadcast an indoctination wave across the galaxy - Why not do that the moment you start the invasion?
This is my main motivation for believing that the Crucible is NOT Reaper tech - it's capabilities are beyond what we've seen the Reapers do before, and there's never been any reason for them to hold back.

Just answering your question. If the reapers indoctrinate the entire galaxy in the first strike what is left for the Starchild to test. He wants to see if the new races have the answer to his problem. It's part of the reason for his cycles and harest, he's looking for the answer from all sources and to see if anyone can make it to him on the citadel.

[Argentoid]

dorktainian wrote...

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.






yay an ending that makes sense..

Wow... I think I.. I... love this...

But the Catalyst was always there, so it doesn't make much sense.

[dorktainian]

Argentoid wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

heres one for you.

What if the Citadel was never finished? Assume it was designed by Leviathan as an apparatus to re-write the reapers. The component to finish it was........the crudible.

The reapers found out about the citadel, and adjusted it slightly to help them indoctrinate.

But the crucible was never finished because......Reapers.

However, once finished the citadel re-writes or destroys the reapers as it was designed to do via the mass relays.






yay an ending that makes sense..

Wow... I think I.. I... love this...

But the Catalyst was always there, so it doesn't make much sense.

unless the Catalyst is Shepard.  then it makes total sense.

Modifié par dorktainian, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Teddie Sage]

While we already know that the Crucible was made by other races that preceded
the Protheans and etc, this thread made me think about a few things.
What if the Catalyst was in fact Shepard's imaginary subconscious friend
and the Leviathan DLC was just him dreaming about the choice he or she
would have to make? This is basically some kind of Indoctrination Theory remix.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:45 .

[NeonFlux117]

Yeah. I've stated that the crucible is reaper design and device probably hundreds of times. I think it's like the Arca Monolith on a galactic scale. It's not an evolutionary device- (synthesis). It's a de-evolutionary device.

The only universal "passed" down technolgoy from cycle to cycle are:

Mass Effect technology dark energy/drive cores ect= Reaper Origin

The Citadel= Reaper Origin

The Mass Relays= Reaper Origin

The "Crucible"= ?????

You get the drift.

Get it??? Drift. You know 1500k and stuff.

Anyways.

Crucible is a Trojan horse.

[dorktainian]

With the Reapers It's like the geth heretics.

Do you re-write them? (control / synthesis)
or just Destroy them?

The crucible allows the catalyst to make that decision. It gives him access to unlimited power to focus through the citadel relay however he sees fit.




edit.  who benefits from this scenario? 

Modifié par dorktainian, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[NeonFlux117]

dorktainian wrote...

With the Reapers It's like the geth heretics.

Do you re-write them? (control / synthesis)
or just Destroy them?

The crucible allows the catalyst to make that decision. It gives him access to unlimited power to focus through the citadel relay however he sees fit.




edit.  who benefits from this scenario? 

The Reapers do. And that is that. Really all that needs to be said. 

You placate and apease evil, homocidal killing machines and their psychopathic Overlord. 


Everyone should have a problem with this- 

Shepard (The hero and vangaurd of this cycle) dies in synthesis and control. 

And yet......

The Reapers survive. 

"Shepard, I always survive"- Harbinger. 

Yes you do harby. Yes you do. All I gotta do is choose the green or blue one and you and your pals get to chill out and you know, give hugs and stuff to the rest of the galaxy. 


Sure. 

[Linkenski]

Ever since the extended cut and Leviathan I've been under the assumption that the Crucible was indeed a reaper/pre-reaper blueprint which was later found, maybe refined, maybe not, by the innusannon and Protheans (and those before those) and then passed on for humanity to discover. The Reapers were trying to refine their idea of merging synthetics and organics to create a monotonous form of peace with no fear of conflict between any species, but they kept their cycle going until an organic race would find the Crucible, build it and send an organic up to utilize the Crucible in favor to the reapers's goal.

Dunno if my theory has holes in it or is stupid or whatever, but this was what I always assumed.

[LoopyMama]

JasonShepard wrote...

.........

Second question: What about a low EMS game where your only choice is Control? (Need to have saved the Collector Base.) How does that fit into your test?

Never got that ending so I went to watch some youtube so I could hear the dialogie and give it a proper answer.

The Starchild is still annoyed that Shep reached him with low EMS but in Destroy he does everything he can to talk you out of using the crucible, refering to it as broken. He gives you dire warnings of almost galaxy wide destruction and says any survivors will still be in trouble without the reapers. He is obviously hoping you will chicken out.

In Control ending he simply refers to the crucible with the standard 'crude power source' description not refering to it as broken and therefore ok to be used. He happily sends you off to the control option as it does him no harm at all!

[AlanC9]

Ok. You've rationalized that away. How do you rationalize away the ending slides and Stargazer? The IT guys use indoctrination, but I thought you weren't using that.

[LoopyMama]

Who isn't using indoctrination? Destroy is an escape from indoctrination. Synthesis and Control indoctrinate everyone, giving them halucinations of a 'perfect' ending while the reapers complete the cycle. The only slides that matter are the destroy and refuse slides. The next cycle chose the right options!
I just refuse to believe that Shep is still in London and never entered the citadel.

[dorktainian]

LoopyMama wrote...

Who isn't using indoctrination? Destroy is an escape from indoctrination. Synthesis and Control indoctrinate everyone, giving them halucinations of a 'perfect' ending while the reapers complete the cycle. The only slides that matter are the destroy and refuse slides. The next cycle chose the right options!
I just refuse to believe that Shep is still in London and never entered the citadel.

thats the beauty of what i stated above.


Shepard ended the reaper threat.  As has been stated on numerous occasions.  Now the only way he could do this is if...

he re-wrote the reapers (just like the heretics)
or he destroyed the reapers.

Anything else and we have lost.  If the reapers carry on as they are then none of the three endings are possible.  They would need to be re-written or destroyed.  That way (unbelievably) the reaper threat is ended in all three endings.  It is the only way to do it imo.  

personally i blow them to hell.  but if this is correct then ALL endings are valid.  It is your choice.

[ATiBotka]

dorktainian wrote...

Why did Cerberus try to gain control of the Citadel?

Bad writing?

[NeonFlux117]

ATiBotka wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Why did Cerberus try to gain control of the Citadel?

Bad writing?

And this is probably the most simple and practical answer to all of this. Derpy writing is, in fact, derpy writing. 

Speculations! Yay :wizard: