82 réponses à ce sujet

[LoopyMama]

Or you could say that it's perfectly in line with TIM's personality. He wants control of the galaxy without alien interference. He claims to put humanity first and what better way to be in control than have only Udina alive and used as a puppet by TIM?

TIM doesn't see the reapers as a major threat as he's planning to control them too. It's a typical thing for him to do while the galaxy is unstable. He just doesn't realise that he's being slowly indoctrinated.

[NeonFlux117]

LoopyMama wrote...

Or you could say that it's perfectly in line with TIM's personality. He wants control of the galaxy without alien interference. He claims to put humanity first and what better way to be in control than have only Udina alive and used as a puppet by TIM?

TIM doesn't see the reapers as a major threat as he's planning to control them too. It's a typical thing for him to do while the galaxy is unstable. He just doesn't realise that he's being slowly indoctrinated.

TIM is not slowly indoctrianted. He is fully indoctrinated by the events of ME3 (Like Saren and Grayson was) and maybe perhaps by the ending of ME2- but that's speculative. 

TIM has been undergowing reaper influence since the Arca Monolith in 2158. That's about 28 years or so before the events of ME3. 

He knows the reapers are a threat and he (through his arrogance) thinks he can control them. 

Kai Leng- who got the same implants as TIM, is identified as an "indoctrinated pressence" on Thessia by Vendetta before the endings. 

TIM is fully under reaper control by the time of London and the beam run. Easily. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, this goes way back. My first thought was that Shepard was the real Catalyst, and that this thing was an AI. The Protheans were wrong about the Citadel being the Catalyst. This AI knew via Quantum Entanglement that we were looking for the Catalyst. How? The Illusive Man was now connected to the reapers via his derp.

You were given a choice of rewriting them or destroying them; OR you could rewrite everyone and end the cycle for good. Okay. But no matter what you did, unless you simply rewrote them: you died, the relays exploded, and the Normandy crashed. If you rewrote them it only showed the relays being damaged a bit and your reapers could fix them. So everyone was left with questions, emptiness. I just wanted to see Liara again. I would never see my waifu again. Would the Quarians and Turians starve? Would anyone be able to get home? Was anyone even alive? I blew up the galaxy at 0320 hrs on 22 Mar 2012.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 This is one of the few IT talking-points that is remotely compelling/plausible to me.


That said, I don't think the Reapers would take any chances and would only seek to destroy such a prototype.

[KaiserShep]

And in fact in low EMS, they try to do exactly that as it approaches the Citadel.

[Han Shot First]

My personal opinion is that the Crucible was likely either created by Leviathan thralls, or was created by one of the species annihilated by the Reapers, and the Leviathans have just been guaranteeing that the design keeps surviving subsequent cycles.

It would give them a way to combat the Reapers without exposing themselves.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[LoopyMama]

if the crucible was created or designed by a race trying to stop the reapers, why would it include an option that is exactly what the AI wants? i.e. Synthisis

[dorktainian]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 This is one of the few IT talking-points that is remotely compelling/plausible to me.


That said, I don't think the Reapers would take any chances and would only seek to destroy such a prototype.

to do that they would have to be able to understand what it does.  since nobody knows what it does how can the reapers?  (see what i did there.....nice bit of circular logic)

only Leviathan knows what it does.  They're in hiding.  That could also explain why the reapers went looking for leviathan - information about the crucible.  Also another clue - on the mining planet where anne bryson is - marauder shields absorbing information from the orb - could prove this theory.

[His Name was HYR!!]

dorktainian wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 This is one of the few IT talking-points that is remotely compelling/plausible to me.


That said, I don't think the Reapers would take any chances and would only seek to destroy such a prototype.

to do that they would have to be able to understand what it does.  since nobody knows what it does how can the reapers?  (see what i did there.....nice bit of circular logic)

only Leviathan knows what it does.  They're in hiding.  That could also explain why the reapers went looking for leviathan - information about the crucible.  Also another clue - on the mining planet where anne bryson is - marauder shields absorbing information from the orb - could prove this theory.

Nobody knows, but everyone seems to believe it can/will destroy the Reapers.

As such, I think the Reapers would only see one way to deal with the problem.

And it involves red laser-beams.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

And in fact in low EMS, they try to do exactly that as it approaches the Citadel.

And actually did destroy it if you waited too long in the original endings.

Han Shot First wrote...

My personal opinion is that the
Crucible was likely either created by Leviathan thralls, or was created
by one of the species annihilated by the Reapers, and the Leviathans
have just been guaranteeing that the design keeps surviving subsequent
cycles.

It would give them a way to combat the Reapers without exposing themselves.

I'd say the hook it up to the Citadel revision was entirely the Leviathans doing.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[KaiserShep]

LoopyMama wrote...

if the crucible was created or designed by a race trying to stop the reapers, why would it include an option that is exactly what the AI wants? i.e. Synthisis

It could be argued that the synthetics problem was something other designers thought about, and attempted to incorporate into the device at some point. Even the protheans may have done this. Javik may be wholly anti-synthetic, but he's not representative of the scientists involved with its construction. What the AI wants and what the designers add could possibly be coincidental.

[KaiserShep]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

And in fact in low EMS, they try to do exactly that as it approaches the Citadel.

And actually did destroy it if you waited too long in the original endings.

Waited too long in what sequence of the game? You mean at the decision chamber? Kinda disappointing that this wouldn't be part of the revised ending as well.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:15 .

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

LoopyMama wrote...

if the crucible was created or designed by a race trying to stop the reapers, why would it include an option that is exactly what the AI wants? i.e. Synthisis

It could be argued that the synthetics problem was something other designers thought about, and attempted to incorporate into the device at some point. Even the protheans may have done this. Javik may be wholly anti-synthetic, but he's not representative of the scientists involved with its construction. What the AI wants and what the designers add could possibly be coincidental.

Or the Leviathans could have slipped it in the design because they knew that's what their creation was looking for and did want it to succeed. Not like anyone else would know what the hell that revision was. They're like the perfect handwave for anything involving the Crucible.

KaiserShep wrote...

Waited too long in what sequence of
the game? You mean at the decision chamber? Kinda disappointing that
this wouldn't be part of the revised ending as well.

Yeah, in the originals if you stand around too long in the decision chamber you get a critical mission failure, the Repaers have destroyed the Crucible message. I've heard it can still be done if you start walking up one of the ramps and turn around but I've not tested that myself yet.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[LoopyMama]

[quote]KaiserShep wrote...

Waited too long in what sequence of
the game? You mean at the decision chamber? Kinda disappointing that
this wouldn't be part of the revised ending as well. [/quote]

[/quote]
Yeah, in the originals if you stand around too long in the decision chamber you get a critical mission failure, the Repaers have destroyed the Crucible message. I've heard it can still be done if you start walking up one of the ramps and turn around but I've not tested that myself yet.

[/quote]

Going to test!!! Back in a bit. The above text should be in a quote, not sure why it isn't......

Modifié par LoopyMama, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:25 .

[LoopyMama]

Yep. If you wait too long or go up and down a ramp the crucible is destroyed.

[Deathsaurer]

Odd, I've also heard stories of people standing around forever. I wonder what the exact trigger for this is.

[AlanC9]

They might have thought the timer wasn't needed once you could directly trigger Refuse by shooting the Catalyst. If so, I think it was a mistake.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:41 .

[LoopyMama]

Standing still after Starchild stops talking does nothing, I even went to make a coffee. If, however, you get to the top of a ramp and then change your mind, it gets fed up with you and destroys the crucible!

[Deathsaurer]

And people say it isn't a moody AI

[Argentoid]

LoopyMama wrote...

Standing still after Starchild stops talking does nothing, I even went to make a coffee. If, however, you get to the top of a ramp and then change your mind, it gets fed up with you and destroys the crucible!

I thought that didn't happen anymore with the EC installed.

[N7Gold]

OP, I believe the same thing as you do.
"We harvest oyur bodies, your knowledge, your creations, to be reborn in the form of a new Reaper." -The Catalyst


My point in that quote is the Reapers most likely stole the knowledge and creations of all the races they harvested over time, which eventually led to the foundations of Mass Effect technology, where everything created by the Reapers like the Mass Relays, the Citadel can be easily used by other races even though it is not their technology and they don't understand much about the Mass Effect tech. the Crucible can be easily built even though no one knows what it can do. See where I'm getting at?


I really belive the Crucible is a Reaper creation, but unlike the Mass Relays and Citadel, they only made the blueprints for other races to find so that when the Reapers attack organics, urging them to do whatever it takes to fight for survival, they will build the Crucible with blind hope that it can stop the Reapers.


"Control : Leviathon had the ability to indoctrinate and had almost total control over the galaxy and look what they did with it. Look what TIM wants to do with it. Absolute control by an organic race corrupts absolutely. Starchild doesn't want another organic race that wants control, he said that the Leviathon were part of the problem so that isn't the answer. Choosing control only lets Shep be indoctrinated fully and transmit that indoctrination to the rest of the galaxy via the mass relays. Reapers then have an easy time on clean up while everyone lives in dream land. Test failed."


Personally, OP, the Leviathan's form of indoctrination is different from the Reapers. Indoctrination deteriorates the mind. The indoctrinated person believes and does what the Reapers tell him/her to do without question. TIM only believed in controlling the Reapers because through his indoctrination, he blindly believed that fighting fire with fire is the best way to defeat the Reapers.

Shepard: "I think you've gotten a little too close to the enemy."

TIM: "... No. I'm saying they got it right. Why kill when you can control?"

TIM:" You think that because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics that they're no longer my enemy?"

The point is, it was never TIM's idea to control the Reapers. He has been indoctrinated for 33 years, ever since the First Contact War (read the comic Mass Effect Evolution), his ideas are not his own. If he was in control of his mind, he would ask himself, or even ask the Reapers why controlling them is a better solution than destroying them. He couldn't question the ideas of the Reapers because he is indoctrinated.

And the Leviathans already had control of the galaxy a very long time ago, before the races they enslaved invented machines which eventually developed to have a will of their own.

I have a different theory of what makes Control the wrong choice. The Reapers don't want you to kill them, but what if you're scared of the consequences of killing the Reapers and you don't trust choosing Synthesis? What then? I believe Control is a fail safe. By choosing it, Shepard gains temporary control of the Reapers, using them to rebuild the mass relays and the Citadel, but eventually, the Reapers will break free from Shepard's control and harvest everyone,  they will have another chance at harvesting organic life until someone from a future cycle finishes the Crucible and chooses Synthesis.
[

Synthesis :  Combining synthetics and organics takes away a fundamental right to be who you are. It a type of rape, if you ask me, (which you didn't so ok, lets move on). Starchild says that his past experiments have failed. These attempts are probably the husks he now regularly uses as ground troops. Choosing to sacrifice your individuality and force synthisis on the entire galaxy shows you are not strong enough in your convictions to be trusted with the fate of the galaxy. Everyone, including Shep, is indoctrinated and controlled and again easy clean up. Test failed.

You're not far wrong in my eyes, OP. Synthesis is the long term goal of the Reapers. Saren, when he was indoctrinated by Sovereign had beliefs and ideas that are in alignment with Synthesis. He kept talking about how it is impossible to kill the Reapers, and even if it is possible, it will come with a lot of sacrifices for "petty freedoms". He also said that he wanted to forge an alliance with the Reapers, build a utopia for organics and synthetics so that there will be no pointless deaths.

Contrary to popular belief about Synthesis turning everyone into organic/synthetic hybrids, I believe the truth of this choice is much more serious. Let's think about the Leviathans. they created the Catalyst to find a solution to the problem of their enslaved races getting killed off by their sentient machines. The Catalyst learned that the synthetics don't want to be treated like tools, they want to live and grow like organics. The Leviathans see the "lesser" races as tools, and the "lesser" races see their machine creations as tools, meant to improve their existence. The Catalyst decided that the only way to stop the conflict is to make peace between the organics and their creations, while at the same time, "ESTABLISHING A CONNECTION" between them and the Leviathans so the Leviathans will have a new way of controlling organics, rendering their crystal balls obsolete. Synthetics will also be controllable to the Leviathans.

That is what Synthesis does. It connects all organic and synthetics in the galaxy with a special DNA, turning them into living "Quantum Entanglement Communicator" devices for the Leviathans to use. In this way, they will have full control of the galaxy again, a galaxy with billions of worlds in one fell swoop.


Destroy : This is the choice you need to make. You may have synthetic allies (Geth and EDI) and this choice may well kill you too, but it takes strength to sacrifice something you care about and even more strength and conviction to fight off the effects of indoctrination. Choosing destroy proves Starchild's solution is no longer needed and you have earned the right to live free and be trusted with your own fate and that of the galaxy. This shuts down Starchild and his reapers. You passed the test.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about this, OP. Most people either ignore or forget this grim but important lesson in the game: "The right choice is not always the easy one".

But one thing I disagree with you is this is not about finding the conviction to fight the effects of indoctrination, Shepard has experienced no effects of indoctrination at all. He/She is actually fighting off his/her doubts and fears about "pointless" sacrifices, hence the nightmares. The kid in those nightmares symbolize the billions of innocent lives that Shepard wants to save so badly, but he/she can't, no matter how hard he/she tries, no matter how many sacrifices he/she makes. It makes Shepard think that in the end, if he/she does kill the Reapers, there won't be enough survivors left to call it a victory, Paragon Shepards start believing that every sacrifice his/her allies made are in vain, Renegade Shepards try their best not to believe that.



TIM didn't want to put a control chip in Shepard's brain, the Reapers had more than one opportunities to control Shepard, but they didn't. Why? Because they need Shepard in control of his/her mind to use the Crucible. TIM couldn't use the Crucible because the Catalyst and Reapers already controlled him. If Shepard was under their control too, he/she would be as useless as TIM.

They just need Shepard to change his/her mind about destroying the Reapers. Since Saren and TIM failed to change Shepard's beliefs, the Catalyst's last trump card is Shepard's stressed out mind. I do believe the theories about in the beginning of the game, the kid that Shepard will soon see in his/her nightmares is not real, but a projection of his/her mind, knowing that there will be a lot of losses during the war against the Reapers. In the final nightmare, before going into Cronos Station, Cerberus's main HQ, Shepard sees himself/herself hugging the kid. That scene means after countless futile attempts at trying to save the lives he/she is powerless to save, there will soon be a way to stop the Reapers, a way to save the lives he/she was powerless to save before, a way that eschews the option of causing more "pointless" sacrifices. But the fire that surrounds the other Shepard and the kid means that the choice you think is right is not the right choice, it will lead to Shepard's death and quite likely the victory of the Reapers in ways you never anticipated. There's a reason why the Catalyst disguises himself as a child. The final nightmare is a warning to Shepard, a warning that is trying to tell him/her that the choice most people would label "unethical" or "selfish" is the right choice. and that choice is killing the Reapers, even though you have to sacrifice the lives of the geth and EDI.

Looking on the bright side, without the Reapers, everything the Catalyst is trying to do for the Leviathans will be undone. With the Reapers dead, organics are free to build their own future without being manipulated by the Reapers for the first time in a very, VERY long time.

Even if there will be a future conflict between organics and thier synthetic creations, we definitely DO NOT need the Reapers to find a solution! The Reapers were tryign to find a solution for only the Leviathans, not for all organic life. We can find our own solutions, as evidenced by our efforts of bringing peace between the quarians and geth!

Modifié par N7Gold, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:56 .

[SwobyJ]

(NOTE: this is all just a crazy interpretation of mine. Don't bother insulting me - I know it is silly or at least assumes a lot -  but critiquing the idea is OK)


N7Gold I love your post.

I agree with a lot of it.

However, I think two things.

1)Shepard really is undergoing indoctrination, but it is of the most subtle form of anyone else. They DO want Shepard to outright choose it, and enforcing it on him ruins the plan.
To me, the real Shepard is 'CloneShep', and as you advance through the series, we play more and more of Shepard's 'headcanon' of saving the galaxy, instead of leading everyone... including the Rachni...Geth...Krogan... , into one location.

The second half of ME3 in particular, is weirder than any other parts of the series because indoc is reaching a more advanced stage after years. Thus, events we see 'happened', but are 'subjective', just as Varric's narration of DAII means that the entire game 'happened' but is 'subjective' to his storytelling and POV. This also allows Bioware to handwave a lot of stuff, infuse a game with more humor and fun than there otherwise would have been, and more.

Citadel DLC is especially creepy, yet heartwarming in this context. Shepard is seeking refuge in his own mind, but is also connected to his allies and can use this 'safe haven' as a place of rest before (if the player so chooses..muahaha) continuing on to defeat the Reapers.... or not... he can just stay there forever if he so chooses...


2)In itself, I'm completely with you on the Leviathan stuff. They want all this stuff to happen, or at least have passive to active interest in events, and are only against the Reapers because the Intelligence figured them as part of the problem (and ohhhh yes, they ARE).

However, we may see that the ME3 choice is minimized to the narrative, like ME1 and ME2's were. In the end, Bioware presents moral choices and only does the cause-and-effect thing sparingly.

So my personal interpretation was that the Intelligence was essentially attempting to make an Ultimate Intelligence to decide how to improve or fix the Cycle system.

So we made a Reaper. We just only got clues about it. For some reason, we only saw corpses sitting everywhere

The final choice we make determines what this Ultimate Intelligence, or I guess MegaReaper (hahaaaa), becomes. Does it fight for the free will of organics and synthetics (Shepard!)? Does it fight to protect or rule over the galaxy, for their own good or safety (Intelligence 2.0)? Or does it take the plunge and fight to continue the struggle to bring peace to the synthetic and organic conflict, despite the Order and Chaos naysayers ('EDI')?

The visions of the future in the Extended Cut explain all we need to know for now. Destroy monologue explains the spirit of our struggle. Control monologue explains the outright result of our actions (WOOPS WE'RE IN A REAPAH). Synthesis monologue explains the conflict we'll be facing onwards in the franchise. All are messages of hope, one way or another.


But we will be facing the Leviathans, and maybe more. And our choice matters for that. The Shepard 'events'... ehh... not so much, structurally. As they were 'subjective'


"Did it all really happen?"

Modifié par SwobyJ, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:31 .

[LoopyMama]

Wow, N7Gold you've given me a fair bit to think about, Thank you.

Let me just comment on a few things that stand out for me.

Tim is completely indoctrinated yes. No doubt. But that didn't stop him from trying to undermine the reapers signal to control their husks, hence the reaper attack on Sanctuary. I agree that Tim could not question his own motives for wanting control and his mind was not his own, but obviously indoctrination allows a major degree of control (so that the subject will bend to their will) just not absolute control over every thought and action. The reapers would not have wanted Shep to be implanted with a control device since they want Shep under their control not Tim's. The implant is just a small point in the overall plot.
I think that Shep having to have his own mind to use the crucible is a moot point. There was no guarantee that Shep would be the one to reach Starchild, he was just the most probable one. Starchild is just testing everyone, every race and humanity seem to be the 'winners' in this cycle for the prise of becoming a reaper. This also makes us more likley to spearhead the creation of the crucible. This is the real test as I said in the opening post. Starchild will give us enough truth in his explanations to warp us to his perspective and then watch what we will do. He is an AI afterall and has no true feelings about our choices only the programmed need to find a solution and his own warped view with the 'data' (harvested cycles) he had collected.

Your theory on the Leviathan's wish for the synthesis ending is a very chilling one. Turning everyone into a **living "Quantum Entanglement Communicator" device for the Leviathans to use** is a seriously disturbing thought. Kudos. I have to wonder, however as to why the reapers and Leviathan are at odds if their goal is the same? Or are you suggesting that synthesis has a consequence that the reapers have not realised?

I do happen to believe that Shep is suffering from the effects of indoctrination as evidenced by the *oily shadows* in the dream sequence that the rachini queen spoke of (among other evidence that has been talked to death on this forum). We will have to agree to disagree on that point. Your arguments are well thought out and backed up by good examples and I certainly agree with you any solution that leaves the reapers still in any state of play is a bad solution!

Modifié par LoopyMama, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[SwobyJ]

Great stuff LoopyMama.

Yeah for me it would go like:

ME1 - Beginning to suffer the most minor effects (I have a pet theory that Charm and Intimidate are actually the very beginnings of 'Reaper improvements' on Shepard's mind, as that first time we use it is right as we hear the first Reaper noise/signal?), but is highly resistant to it and moves forward into opposition to them. Almost everything we experience is legit, but we start the beginnings of falling into the 'hero/badass fantasy' towards the end. We also gather the first of our 'henchmen' who feel 'compelled' to follow Shepard.
Shepard defeats Sovereign, bringing full Reaper attention onto humanity. Turns out that ME1's events may have only been a test for Saren (no real danger to the Reapers), and Shepard arrived as an anomaly worth investigating.

ME2 - Entirely a hero/badass fantasy. The basic structure and gist of events is true, but... and this is the crazy part... the experience isn't really 'real'. One thing that points towards this is in Citadel DLC, which in the 'archives' (heh) explains clearly that Zakera Ward was *entirely destroyed*, but in ME2, it was never directly hit, and was one of the most easy to repair....
Shepard may have, in the 'real world', been a full Cerberus puppet, but in OUR experience, we can act with more agency to actively support or speak against Cerberus. It's our Paragon or Renegade experience and capabilities that are 'unreal' and get us deeper into the Reaper illusion, but also give us the tools to eventually reject them in each game.
We're pushed in the morality system this time to be fully Paragon or fully Renegade in ME2. In either case, the antagonist this time seems to be Harbinger, intending to use humanity... and perhaps Shepard.. ... as the Human Reaper.

ME3 - Tied to both previous games in tone, with an extra dose of mind-twist. In 'defeating' Harbinger, Shepard has demonstrated himself as an outright anomaly in the Reaper plan. The Reapers arrive and stage the 'war', which is always intended as the Harvest and only that. Shepard may be incredibly important to this plan; the Reapers may be subliminally moving out of the way in order for Shepard to fight to complete their 'test'.
Instead of just being a fooled dupe (Saren, ME1), or the avatar of a new Reaper (Shepard?, ME2), Shepard may be intended to be ALLOWED to complete the Crucible and illustrate to the 'Intelligence' (which may or may not be Sovereign's code) what the direction of the galaxy ought to be, because holycrapnoorganichaseverresistedusthismuch.
All the while, he leads the united galactic army to one place, where if he continues to resist Reaper indoctrination and reject the Crucible scenario, the Reapers can just as well eliminate everyone easily (Refuse Ending).
Only through sustaining the illusion while punching through it (akin to Aria breaching Petrosky's first trap), can Shepard survive the years of manipulation his mind has been put into, beyond most players' perceptions of events.

Alternatively, Control and Synthesis exist. Synthesis is the total fulfillment of Shepard's established but secret destiny. Control is fulfillment of Shepard's virtual relationships (yes I know this is nuts). Breath Destroy is Shepard finally coming 'back to earth' and facing the music... which we're not allowed to see, at least not yet. Low/High (not Breath) Destroy is still in the illusion it seems, but it still is the filfillment of Shepard's long-term goal against the Reapers.

No matter what happens, everything has changed, and Shepard has ended the Reaper *threat*, either for now, or later. The story makes clear that this is a victory in itself, and that it may be time for the rest of the galaxy to pick up the slack and take over the fight. (Assuming that the ending isn't quite real )

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[N7Gold]

LoopyMama wrote...

Wow, N7Gold you've given me a fair bit to think about, Thank you.

Let me just comment on a few things that stand out for me.

Tim is completely indoctrinated yes. No doubt. But that didn't stop him from trying to undermine the reapers signal to control their husks, hence the reaper attack on Sanctuary. I agree that Tim could not question his own motives for wanting control and his mind was not his own, but obviously indoctrination allows a major degree of control (so that the subject will bend to their will) just not absolute control over every thought and action. The reapers would not have wanted Shep to be implanted with a control device since they want Shep under their control not Tim's. The implant is just a small point in the overall plot.

I think that Shep having to have his own mind to use the crucible is a moot point. There was no guarantee that Shep would be the one to reach Starchild, he was just the most probable one. Starchild is just testing everyone, every race and humanity seem to be the 'winners' in this cycle for the prise of becoming a reaper. This also makes us more likley to spearhead the creation of the crucible. This is the real test as I said in the opening post. Starchild will give us enough truth in his explanations to warp us to his perspective and then watch what we will do. He is an AI afterall and has no true feelings about our choices only the programmed need to find a solution and his own warped view with the 'data' (harvested cycles) he had collected.

Your theory on the Leviathan's wish for the synthesis ending is a very chilling one. Turning everyone into a **living "Quantum Entanglement Communicator" device for the Leviathans to use** is a seriously disturbing thought. Kudos. I have to wonder, however as to why the reapers and Leviathan are at odds if their goal is the same? Or are you suggesting that synthesis has a consequence that the reapers have not realised?

I do happen to believe that Shep is suffering from the effects of indoctrination as evidenced by the *oily shadows* in the dream sequence that the rachini queen spoke of (among other evidence that has been talked to death on this forum). We will have to agree to disagree on that point. Your arguments are well thought out and backed up by good examples and I certainly agree with you any solution that leaves the reapers still in any state of play is a bad solution!

TIM believed that he was still against the Reapers even though he supposedly accepted their methods willingly, but that's the scary thing about indoctrination, you don't realize that you are indoctrinated, everything that the Reapers whisper into your brain seems to make sense to you even though you don't feel the need to ask them any questions.

Yeah, you're right, anyone could have reached the Catalyst's chamber, but I think they knew Shepard would be the one since he/she defeated Sovereign and the Collectors. To the Reapers, Shepard is a remarkable specimen because of his/her achievements, even though he/she is just an average human, even the Leviathans see that Shepard is something special, an anomaly. And you're right about the catalyst too, he told us enough truths to warp our perspective. For example, when Shepard first met him, he didn't immediately present the choices of the Crucible, he led Shepard into believing that harvesting organic life is the solution he has been looking for, even if you knew better from playing the Leviathan DLC, he hasn't fufilled his purpose yet. After Shepard tells him what he's doing wrong, he finally admits that because Shepard is the first organic he has met in a very long time, he realized that his so-called "solution" is flawed and a new solution needs to be found. Doesn't that sound like he's playing Shepard? Plus, he doesn't reveal the identity, or the nature of his creators. If he told Shepard this his creators dominated the galaxy eons ago, it would be clear ot Shepard that the Catalyst and Reapers are trying to manipulate Shepard into choosing a solution that'll bring the Leviathans back to their former glory. Before the Leviathan DLC came out, I used to think the Catalyst's creators were galactic peacekeepers/peacemakers.

Yes, very chilling indeed. If you played the Leviathan DLC, it hints that the Leviathans control the minds of organics by entangling particles in the brain, in a similar way how a quantum entanglement communicator device works, entangling particles through great distances. The Leviathans are not the only race who can do this. The Rachni Queen can do this too, which is how the queen speaks to Shepard through other living, half dead or dead creatures. it is also hinted in the DLC that the Leviathans may be responsible for agitating the Rachni, starting the rachni wars. Ever since I played ME2, I always thought it was too easy to blame the Reapers for souring the "songs" of the Rachni, there was no one else to blame but them.

The only reason the Reapers are at odds with the Leviathans is because the Leviathans are an organic race too, the Reapers don't descriminate, just like the Crucible blast when killing all synthetic life. The Leviathans simply have to stay away from the Reapers until they are no longer hostile to organics, like in the Synthesis ending.


I used to think that Shepard was experiencing symptoms of indoctrination, but now, I think it's simply stress, or something like PTSD. In ME1 and ME2, Shepard was portrayed as an unshakable force of confidence, but in ME3, we see that even the great Commander Shepard is not a super human, he/she is a normal human, an alliance soldier who can have doubts like everyone else, and the Reapers are taking advantage of Shepard's battle weary, stressed out psyche to ensure he/she loses his/her conviction of making the hard choices.

Modifié par N7Gold, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:59 .