375 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

You don't know the outcome of any of the "options" that you are still forcing onto others. Two, that's not a Spectre's job. A Spectre accomplsihes the mission, which is to destroy the Reapers, as it has always been. Finally, as a Spectre, what you want is unimportant. This isn't about the outcome that you find favorable.

True, I don't. Including Destroy. But if the Catalyst is lying, it's probably lying about everything and I'm screwed anyway, so it doesn't matter what I choose. And I will choose the outcome best for the galaxy.

See, now we can agree. Destroying the Reapers is the ONLY guaranteed way to permanently stop the cycle.

The cycle ends either way; the Catalyst wants it stopped.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

You don't know the outcome of any of the "options" that you are still forcing onto others. Two, that's not a Spectre's job. A Spectre accomplsihes the mission, which is to destroy the Reapers, as it has always been. Finally, as a Spectre, what you want is unimportant. This isn't about the outcome that you find favorable.

True, I don't. Including Destroy. But if the Catalyst is lying, it's probably lying about everything and I'm screwed anyway, so it doesn't matter what I choose. And I will choose the outcome best for the galaxy.

Best for the galaxy? Or best for your own sense of morality and heroicness? There is nothing to suggest that they are one and the same.

See, now we can agree. Destroying the Reapers is the ONLY guaranteed way to permanently stop the cycle.

The cycle ends either way; the Catalyst wants it stopped.

He never said that. He said that the cycle must end, but only because it is ineffective. Not because he wanted it stopped. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 19 novembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Best for the galaxy? Or best for your own sense of morality and heroicness? There is nothing to suggest that they are one and the same.

That which keeps the most of the galaxy's population alive.

He never said that. He said that the cycle must end, but only because it is ineffective. Not because he wanted it stopped.

Either way, it will end.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
The cycle ends either way; the Catalyst wants it stopped.

Nope, the Catalyst wants to find a solution to an imaginary problem, which is patently impossible.  The Reapers are it's stop-gap solution while it tries to wrap it's programming around this idea.

Supposing the post-Synthesis hybrids don't live up to the Catalyst's exacting standards?  Suppose it's not the "perfect solution" Ventboy's faulty programming thinks it is?  (and bearing in mind how it's current "solution" is in danger of unravelling, who would be surprised?"  Supposing it decides to flick the reset switch, turn on the Reapers and start again?  A lot of supposition, true, but supposition that doesn't exist when the Reapers do not exist.

So long as the Reapers exist, the potential for the cycle to resume exists.  End of story.

[Xilizhra]

Supposing the post-Synthesis hybrids don't live up to the Catalyst's exacting standards? Suppose it's not the "perfect solution" Ventboy's faulty programming thinks it is? (and bearing in mind how it's current "solution" is in danger of unravelling, who would be surprised?" Supposing it decides to flick the reset switch, turn on the Reapers and start again? A lot of supposition, true, but supposition that doesn't exist when the Reapers do not exist.

The cycle was ineffective. Why would it restart?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
What "palmwaving?" I'm not the one responding with "LOL, no" here.

Hilariously incorrect of association fallacy is effectivelypalmwaving.

Let me repeat myself: my claims are based off of what's clearly stated in-game. I've provided my evidence.

Your claims boil down to fallacious "looks like" and "sounds like"-nonsense (fallacies, by assiocations).

Your interpretion is not supported in-game just because you want it to be.

This is irrelevant to the conversation at hand, but I'll respond anyway: I do not care.

So...more palm waving, then?

When faced with irrelevancies then YES, palmwaving is an acceptable response, and perhaps the only right one.

It'sperfectly valid to deviate from the original plan...so long as you remain aware of the potentialrsks and consequences, which you've just told meyou do not care about. AndI'm perfectly entitled to use the FACTS as presented within the confines of the game - and the facts once again are that NO-ONE supports, condones or suggests Synthesis other than the being responsible for the nightmare we're fighting so desperately against in the first place.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying there. You were telling me that the original plan, as supported by certain people, was [this-and-this] and [not that]. And THAT... is what I did not care about. Certain things can arise later that change what the best course of action may be. What people wanted beforehand is irrelevant after new facts arise, IMO.

I do, for the record, care about the risks and possible consequences when I make any given decision. You don't have to tell me this. Tell everyone who freely let the rachni-queen go without any indication it was not already indoctrinated.

Put it this way - if you confronted Ted Bundy with an arrest warrant, he gave up, confessed to his crimes then said "but I'll stop killing if you drink this unidentified green liquid" - would you arrest him, or would you drink the liquid?

If you think the Catalyst encounter is equivalent to confronting Ted Bundy with an arrest warrant, let it suffice to say that you and I see the situation VERY differently. I've seen that Destroy/Refuse/MEHEM supporters have a very gung-ho attitude towards this matter. I am not gung-ho. I prefer to reason, without letting emotions (namely, repulsion) cloud my reasoning.

I am dangerous because I am a thinking man, not an unthinking force (thanks, Sten).


And BTW, I notice you've yet again ignored the thread full of in-game evidence I posted that supports my claim. 

You think continually ignoring it is going to make me suddenly fail to notice your non-response?

You'll have a few hours to think up a response, because I have classes to go to.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 19 novembre 2013 - 02:59 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
The cycle was ineffective. Why would it restart?

...because the Catalyst now believes that it's "perfect solution" is worse.  That it made a mistake by enforcing organic/synthetic synthesis on all life in the galaxy.  So it flicks the reset switch and starts all over again...

Again, this is a hypothetical scenario, but one that simply does not exist when the Reapers are gone.

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The cycle was ineffective. Why would it restart?

...because the Catalyst now believes that it's "perfect solution" is worse.  That it made a mistake by enforcing organic/synthetic synthesis on all life in the galaxy.  So it flicks the reset switch and starts all over again...

Again, this is a hypothetical scenario, but one that simply does not exist when the Reapers are gone.

No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

[KaiserShep]

No doubt the sting I'd feel over it would be akin to accidentally wiping important files on my thumb drive.

[Xilizhra]

KaiserShep wrote...

No doubt the sting I'd feel over it would be akin to accidentally wiping important files on my thumb drive.

Such is your deficiency. I do not possess it.

[KaiserShep]

Deficiency of what? I have an abundance of flippant responses.

[Xilizhra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Deficiency of what? I have an abundance of flippant responses.

I have an infinity of minimalist replies.

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Let me repeat myself: my claims are based off of what's clearly stated in-game. I've provided my evidence...

Bar the Extended Cut additional scenes (which are completely irrelevant when it comes to Shepard actually making the final decision, as they haven't happened yet) I've yet to see any evidence from within the trilogy that supports, endorses or advocates Synthesis as a concept and a viable solution to the Reaper threat.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Your claims boil down to fallacious "looks like" and "sounds like"-nonsense (fallacies, by assiocations).

No, they don't.  Pay attention, and learn what a fallacious argument is before you attempt to look smart.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And BTW, I notice you've yet again ignored the thread full of in-game evidence I posted that supports my claim. 

I'm not going to repeat myself again  - if you've got some specific "evidence" from within the game showing characters other than the Catalyst (or Saren, for that matter) or situations other than the irrelevant Extended Cut epilogues that advocate, support or otherwise address the concept of Synthesis, by all means, post it here.  I'm not going to make your case for you.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
You'll have a few hours to think up a response, because I have classes to go to.

I hope you pay more attention there than you have to the game (or even the discussion in this thread, for that matter!) 

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

Which is exactly what the Catalyst was counting on.  It got you, hook, line and sinker like a fine sea bass.  Garrus tried to warn you, but you were simply too ignorant to listen...

Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone.  In this war, that's not going to happen.

[Xilizhra]

Which is exactly what the Catalyst was counting on. It got you, hook, line and sinker like a fine sea bass. Garrus tried to warn you, but you were simply too ignorant to listen...

And now it's dead and the Reapers are mine.

Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen.

Well, I can't save everyone, true. But I won't save a deliberately smaller number of people than I could.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

On this, we agree.  But I value the freedom of the galaxy as much as their lives

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

On this, we agree.  But I value the freedom of the galaxy as much as their lives

Their freedom is not foreordained to be destroyed even in Control.

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...


If you think the Catalyst encounter is equivalent to confronting Ted Bundy with an arrest warrant, let it suffice to say that you and I see the situation VERY differently. I've seen that Destroy/Refuse/MEHEM supporters have a very gung-ho attitude towards this matter. I am not gung-ho. I prefer to reason, without letting emotions (namely, repulsion) cloud my reasoning.

I am dangerous because I am a thinking man, not an unthinking force (thanks, Sten).

"The hero of any story can defy danger-but only a special hero to defy the stories themselves" -Elan, Order of the Stick

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
And now it's dead and the Reapers are mine.

That thought just made me shudder and throw up a little bit in my mouth,

Nice assumption, by the way.  That the Catalyst is dead.  I saw it flicker out with a smile on it's face when Shepard was the one who was disentigrated...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, I can't save everyone, true. But I won't save a deliberately smaller number of people than I could.

Not before grinding them beneath your new 3km-body's tentacles first, at any rate.  BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARP.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

On this, we agree.  But I value the freedom of the galaxy as much as their lives

Their freedom is not foreordained to be destroyed even in Control.

You don't see creepy parallels between the Reapers in Control and Javik's description of the Prothean Empire and their "subject races"?

[Xilizhra]

That thought just made me shudder and throw up a little bit in my mouth,

Good.

Nice assumption, by the way. That the Catalyst is dead. I saw it flicker out with a smile on it's face when Shepard was the one who was disentigrated...

The voice acting in the epilogue is far too good to be the original Catalyst.

Not before grinding them beneath your new 3km-body's tentacles first, at any rate. BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARP.

Oh, I can do far more than simply grind. But all of my actions will be benevolent, fear not.

You don't see creepy parallels between the Reapers in Control and
Javik's description of the Prothean Empire and their "subject races"?

Not even a tiny bit.  Because the Reapers don't weld everyone into a single culture and force them to all call themselves Reapers too.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No, all that exists is billions more deaths. I will not have that if there's an alternative.

On this, we agree.  But I value the freedom of the galaxy as much as their lives

Their freedom is not foreordained to be destroyed even in Control.

You don't see creepy parallels between the Reapers in Control and Javik's description of the Prothean Empire and their "subject races"?

Control has a strong paternalistic vibe, but the degree is anyone's guess. Also, an entity like the Shepalyst needn't oppress to guide the direction of civilization. There are much subtler methods.  

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Control has a strong paternalistic vibe, but the degree is anyone's guess. Also, an entity like the Shepalyst needn't oppress to guide the direction of civilization. There are much subtler methods.  

Indeed.  One doesn't need a carrot or a stick if one has indoctronation and a husk army.

[ElSuperGecko]

iakus wrote...
Indeed.  One doesn't need a carrot or a stick if one has indoctronation and a husk army.

After all, isn't submission preferable to extinction? 

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

iakus wrote...
Indeed.  One doesn't need a carrot or a stick if one has indoctronation and a husk army.

After all, isn't submission preferable to extinction? 

Nothing untoward will be necessary.