375 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Control has a strong paternalistic vibe, but the degree is anyone's guess. Also, an entity like the Shepalyst needn't oppress to guide the direction of civilization. There are much subtler methods.  

Indeed.  One doesn't need a carrot or a stick if one has indoctronation and a husk army.

Not what I meant, obviously. How is that not oppression?

(I knew I shouldn't have come back here. It's still not possible to have a rational debate about the ME endings. It was tiresome a few months ago.)

[Ryzaki]

Obadiah wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
...
Destroy is the ONLY acceptable scenario full stop.  We were told this countless times by every one of our squad mates and allies.
...

That's only because they don't know of any other solution and aren't speaking to the entity in the Decison Chamber.

I don't know if anything the Reaper overload offering them choices other than Destroy would probably make most of them *more* willing to pick Destroy.

Indoctrination isn't a joke.

Man I really half wish IT was real. Shepard has been lurking around Reaper artificats and crap too long to be so immune.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:24 .

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
...
Destroy is the ONLY acceptable scenario full stop.  We were told this countless times by every one of our squad mates and allies.
...

That's only because they don't know of any other solution and aren't speaking to the entity in the Decison Chamber.

I don't know if anything the Reaper overload offering them choices other than Destroy would probably make most of them *more* willing to pick Destroy.

Indoctrination isn't a joke.

Man I really half wish IT was real. Shepard has been lurking around Reaper artificats and crap too long to be so immune.

The issue with the theory that must not be named is more of the implausibility that BioWare planned it. 

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Control has a strong paternalistic vibe, but the degree is anyone's guess. Also, an entity like the Shepalyst needn't oppress to guide the direction of civilization. There are much subtler methods.  

Indeed.  One doesn't need a carrot or a stick if one has indoctronation and a husk army.

Not what I meant, obviously. How is that not oppression?

(I knew I shouldn't have come back here. It's still not possible to have a rational debate about the ME endings. It was tiresome a few months ago.)

the Reapers have been "guiding" civilizations for millions of years.  Through indoctrination, through 'allowing" races to uncover the proper technologies that allow them to develop along the paths the Reapers choose, and in the end, through cullings with their husk armies.

That's what makes Control (and Synthesis) non-starters.  I don't want the galaxy to be guided down the path some other entity declares the "proper" one.  Not even an AI with Shepard's memories. 

And If Synthesis is inevitable, let the galaxy create it on their own, and adopt it through their own choice.  Not by following blueprints they don't understand left behind by races we've never heard of. 

I defy the story.  I fight for the freedom of the galaxy. the entire galaxy

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...
The issue with the theory that must not be named is more of the implausibility that BioWare planned it. 

Oh yeah I know.  

I think it was something planned *really* early in development and then thrown away at the last minute (I really really refuse to believe that little kid is real and the Reaper overload just HAPPENS to share his figure and nothing what so ever is said about this and it's just accepted by Shepard for reasons and Shep's not clearly losing his/her mind.)

So I see it as an old plot thread that was thrown away. That works yes?

I have to keep the dream alive.

[Iakus]

Steelcan wrote...
The issue with the theory that must not be named is more of the implausibility that BioWare planned it. 

Ihave no doubt that it was nothing more than gameplay artifacts left behind when it was removed.

Still, if EC had adopted it as an ending, I might have been willing to roll with it.

Modifié par iakus, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
the Reapers have been "guiding" civilizations for millions of years.  Through indoctrination, through 'allowing" races to uncover the proper technologies that allow them to develop along the paths the Reapers choose, and in the end, through cullings with their husk armies.

That's what makes Control (and Synthesis) non-starters.  I don't want the galaxy to be guided down the path some other entity declares the "proper" one.  Not even an AI with Shepard's memories.

Good thing you're not forced to pick either.

Ever read Asimov? I was wondering how you feel about, say, the Second Foundation, which uses Indoctrination wholesale. (Daneel uses it too, but apparently in a much more limited fashion; he's actually a pretty good model for a Sheplyst.)

[Armass81]

Its supposed to be some kind of transhumanist next stage of being, accomplished by space magic of course.

Modifié par Armass81, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:13 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Good thing you're not forced to pick either.

Yeah, the third option engages in wholesale slaughter of an entire form of life.

And a fourth option which is just lie down and die

Yay!

Ever read Asimov? I was wondering how you feel about, say, the Second Foundation, which uses Indoctrination wholesale. (Daneel uses it too, but apparently in a much more limited fashion; he's actually a pretty good model for a Sheplyst.)

Read the first book.  Found the entire concept of the Foundation rather silly.  Human societies are too complex to be able to predict their changes with such precision centuries into the future.  if it turned out indoctrination was used, I'm glad I never went further.

But then, I Robot kinda tells me Asimov would have been a Control fan.

[Iakus]

Armass81 wrote...

Its supposed to be some kind of transhumanist next stage of being, accomplished by space magic of course.

"Of a sort"?

There should have been a pointy hat and a star-tipped wand involved somewhere

[ElSuperGecko]

Steelcan wrote...
The issue with the theory that must not be named is more of the implausibility that BioWare planned it. 

Really?  That's the issue?

Bioware have placed so many mindfunk moments in their games that it's more improbable that they not plan a twist ending or revelation of some sort.

NWN - Hordes of the Underdark -  a LITERAL (if obvious to spot) indoctrination ending!
KOTOR - and the Revan twist
Jade Empire's "Sacrifice" ending

Then there's the bhaalspawn reveal and dream sequences in BG, not to mention Mass Effect's own, original paradigm-shifting twist on Virmire when you realise that Saren and the Geth aren't the true threat after all...

IT has issues, true - Bioware not being clever enough storytellers for it definitely isn't one of them.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Xilizhra]

The Catalyst and the varying options are the twist.

[Br3admax]

KotOR didn't have a twist. The only thing that was surprising about the player being Revan is that no one figured it out earlier.

"What if Revan isn't really dead? What if we undertook training this one, and it caused the dark lord to return?"
Really? This on top of all the others that are in the Revelation movie.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Catalyst and the varying options are the twist.

Yep, a vague, 3-minute conversation with the Reaper's creator being enough to persuade certain players that the Reapers aren't really the enemy and that it's a good idea to step into the Illusive Man's indoctrinated shoes / huskify every single living thing in the galaxy is a pretty mindblowing twist ending alright! 

[Ryzaki]

I always thought Revan twist was fine as long as you didn't go to Wookie planet before the reveal.

If you did though I wanted a "No rly?" option.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:28 .

[Br3admax]

Ryzaki wrote...

I always thought Revan twist was fine as long as you didn't go to Wookie planet before the reveal.

If you did though I wanted a "No rly?" option.

"You used me Bastila! You're no better than the Sith!"


The sad thing is that the order they want is Tatooine, Kashyyyk, Manaan. There should be no surprises. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[brodatjust]

General TSAR wrote...

Destroying the sexbot to destroy the genocidal cuttlefish is totally worth it.

dfq:huh:

[Obadiah]

Ryzaki wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
...
Destroy is the ONLY acceptable scenario full stop.  We were told this countless times by every one of our squad mates and allies.
...

That's only because they don't know of any other solution and aren't speaking to the entity in the Decison Chamber.

I don't know if anything the Reaper overload offering them choices other than Destroy would probably make most of them *more* willing to pick Destroy.

Indoctrination isn't a joke.

Man I really half wish IT was real. Shepard has been lurking around Reaper artificats and crap too long to be so immun

Yes. Point is they aren't in the chamber and we don't know, so why bring them into it? They weren't aware of the full scope of the situation or the impact of firing the weapon.

Shepard is the Spectre empowered by the Council to act on his own to protect the galaxy as he deems appropriate. That's his job. And, no, his job as Spectre is not to do only what his superiors want - that's why they keep making him a Spectre when he defies them.

[brodatjust]

I think the better ending is control, synthesis makes every one all green and you can't die...wait...

[brodatjust]

Destroy: total genocide
Synthesis: total molestation
Control: TOTAL POWAH!

So what would you choose?

[Br3admax]

Destroy.

[brodatjust]

Br3ad wrote...

Destroy.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! YOU BASTARD! YOU WOULD KILL THE GETH!? *begins sobbing* *shakes fist*

[Iakus]

brodatjust wrote...

Destroy: total genocide
Synthesis: total molestation
Control: TOTAL POWAH!

So what would you choose?

MEHEM

Totally worth it

[brodatjust]

Obadiah wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
...
Destroy is the ONLY acceptable scenario full stop.  We were told this countless times by every one of our squad mates and allies.
...

That's only because they don't know of any other solution and aren't speaking to the entity in the Decison Chamber.

I don't know if anything the Reaper overload offering them choices other than Destroy would probably make most of them *more* willing to pick Destroy.

Indoctrination isn't a joke.

Man I really half wish IT was real. Shepard has been lurking around Reaper artificats and crap too long to be so immun

Yes. Point is they aren't in the chamber and we don't know, so why bring them into it? They weren't aware of the full scope of the situation or the impact of firing the weapon.

Shepard is the Spectre empowered by the Council to act on his own to protect the galaxy as he deems appropriate. That's his job. And, no, his job as Spectre is not to do only what his superiors want - that's why they keep making him a Spectre when he defies them.

I think its cause we didnt know wed kill all synthetics.

[ElSuperGecko]

Obadiah wrote...
Yes. Point is they aren't in the chamber and we don't know, so why bring them into it? They weren't aware of the full scope of the situation or the impact of firing the weapon.

What's the "full scope of the situation", exactly?

For me it's the Reaper fleet currently blowing the crap out of the various races of the galaxy.  Not just on/around Earth, but right throughout the galaxy.

Little Hapless VentBoy would have me believe that there's something bigger at stake, that the inevitable synthetic / organic conflict is the REAL threat, not merely the mechacuttlefish armada it personally created that is currently BRAAAAAAAAARPing their way through the Allied fleet.

To that I say:

"Fair enough, that's your opinion.  I don't have any evidence to support that opinion other than your contradictory statements, flawed logic and vague assurances.  And even if that threat is real, the galaxy can face it together, on it's own terms, with the lessons of history - YOUR history - to draw from.  So I'm going to take your logic, turn it sideways, shine it up real nice and pull the trigger on your organic-murdering Reaper children."

Obadiah wrote...
Shepard is the Spectre empowered by the Council to act on his own to protect the galaxy as he deems appropriate. That's his job. And, no, his job as Spectre is not to do only what his superiors want - that's why they keep making him a Spectre when he defies them.

This is very true.  Shame so many people appear to forget that bolded part when listening to VentBoy's half-assed, three-minute exposition on the virtues of turning everybody green with free circuit boards.

"It's the perfect solution!  No, really!  ... what do you mean, what for?"