375 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

My objection to Synthesis (aside from its inherent silliness and ambiguity) has mostly been thematic. In Mass Effect friendship, unity, peace, spice, and everything nice have always surpassed physical barriers like what species individuals belonged to, or what amino based DNA or lack of DNA they had -- that even in a galaxy filled with vastly different cultures, biology, and ways of thinking everyone, robot or not, was still... human; and it was through that common humanity that the races stood together. Now the only thing that seems clear about the Synthesis ending is that it just changes individuals DNA and just DNA (or matrices?!? according to the EC), and somehow through this change not only could peace and understanding finally be achieved between Organics and Synthetics, but it would result in a glorious, unimaginable utopia to boot -- where even mortality can be transcended! According to the Catalyst Synthesis is the only true solution to the problem, which has the implication that Shepard's friendship with EDI, Legion, and the Geth is an illusion -- they'll betray him at some point (obviously!).

This is why Synthesis to me always seems like a betrayal to everything else that happens throughout the game, the bonds the player made didn't mean anything. It isn't talking to Synthetics (and maybe by extension the non-human Organics to), seeing their believes and point of views, their goals and worries and whatnot that led to understanding and peace between them; it's having the same DNA that does all that. In a Synthesis world friendship is like a reflex, it's a code written into the individuals genetics. Suddenly Reapers like Harbinger, who seems to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, are now your best friends because you share the same DNA.

I could be completely off my rocker and totally misunderstood the Synthesis ending, but whenever I see the Synthesis epilogue I get extremely annoyed, maybe even upset, about how contrived and fake it seems; like I'm watching some stereotypical propaganda film that's trying to trick me into liking the Synthesis choice.

[Deathsaurer]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Those are actually some interesting issues worth exploring I think.  Negative for the universe, positive for story telling.

Any of the negatives from the endings could be interesting for story telling. Whether any of them will be touched on is another story.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:06 .

[xAmilli0n]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Any of the negatives from the endings could be interesting for story telling. Whether any of them will be touched on is another story.

Agreed.

[JonathonPR]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

My objection to Synthesis (aside from its inherent silliness and ambiguity) has mostly been thematic. In Mass Effect friendship, unity, peace, spice, and everything nice have always surpassed physical barriers like what species individuals belonged to, or what amino based DNA or lack of DNA they had -- that even in a galaxy filled with vastly different cultures, biology, and ways of thinking everyone, robot or not, was still... human; and it was through that common humanity that the races stood together. Now the only thing that seems clear about the Synthesis ending is that it just changes individuals DNA and just DNA (or matrices?!? according to the EC), and somehow through this change not only could peace and understanding finally be achieved between Organics and Synthetics, but it would result in a glorious, unimaginable utopia to boot -- where even mortality can be transcended! According to the Catalyst Synthesis is the only true solution to the problem, which has the implication that Shepard's friendship with EDI, Legion, and the Geth is an illusion -- they'll betray him at some point (obviously!).

This is why Synthesis to me always seems like a betrayal to everything else that happens throughout the game, the bonds the player made didn't mean anything. It isn't talking to Synthetics (and maybe by extension the non-human Organics to), seeing their believes and point of views, their goals and worries and whatnot that led to understanding and peace between them; it's having the same DNA that does all that. In a Synthesis world friendship is like a reflex, it's a code written into the individuals genetics. Suddenly Reapers like Harbinger, who seems to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, are now your best friends because you share the same DNA.

I could be completely off my rocker and totally misunderstood the Synthesis ending, but whenever I see the Synthesis epilogue I get extremely annoyed, maybe even upset, about how contrived and fake it seems; like I'm watching some stereotypical propaganda film that's trying to trick me into liking the Synthesis choice.

It is a dissatifying way to advance. Poof everyone is part of a utopia regardless of their indavidual traits and views. The way the Catalyst descrobes it he was going to do it eventualy anyway. He just did it soomer because of the Cruicable. It is not an acheivement resulting from effort and discovery. 

In Sid Meier's Alpha Centuary one ov the paths to victory is technological singularity/ascention/ unified multiconcousness. When I got there it was because of choices I made. I had lost several colonies to other factions and war was soon to beat me down, but I reached my goal and not only defeated my enemies but made them allies and part of a new world. I felt a sense of acopleshment I did not feel in any of the endings. Of course having Leonard Nimoy nararate my ending helped. Games are about player agency.

[AlanC9]

JonathonPR wrote...
In Sid Meier's Alpha Centuary one ov the paths to victory is technological singularity/ascention/ unified multiconcousness. When I got there it was because of choices I made. I had lost several colonies to other factions and war was soon to beat me down, but I reached my goal and not only defeated my enemies but made them allies and part of a new world. I felt a sense of acopleshment I did not feel in any of the endings. Of course having Leonard Nimoy nararate my ending helped. Games are about player agency.

Nimoy? I don't have that version.

[Zan51]

So there has been 1 Synthetic race in our Galaxy in the last 50,000 years - the Geth. Our Prothean hates synthetics, and as they ruled the last cycle, I doubt there was a synthetic race in that cycle. Or did he mention one that killed their creators and then the Protheans killed them? Not sure on that.

So the Geth are possibly it for 100,000 years, certainly the only one in 50,000 years of this cycle..

Organic races we have,
Human
Asari
Salarian
Batarian,
Drell
Hanar
Elcor
Volus
Yahg
Quarian
Rachni
Vorcha
Raloi
1 Prothean
Others not mentioned, I am sure, as they are not yet very evolved. 13 advanced organic races.

And Sludge Central, the Reapers, who I already see as a hybrid of organic paste and synthetic life. Hmm, that synthesis for the Reapers really worked well, didn't it? Shining example for Synthesis choice!

Synthesis supporters want to prevent an "inevitable" war with synthetic races, of which there has been 1 such race in the last 50,000 to 100,000 years, by ENFORCING synthesis on everyone to prevent this?
Can someone put in the % odds of this happening with the figures we have from the game, because in my opinion, they are not anywhere near high enough to even consider this as a viable option!

So 13 organic species have to undergo being forcibly being turned into hackable organic synthetic hybrids just because of the existance of 1 synthetic species in the last 50,000 to 100,000 years, and we are now at peace with them??

Our biggest danger right now is not from the posibility that another synthetic race might emerge in the future with warlike attitudes, but the Reapers. Kill them, I say. No synthesis. Then start repairing our friendly Geth allies, in my case.

[Killdren88]

So if your a person who got synthesized and didn't want it. "Heres a gun off yourself."

Modifié par Killdren88, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Darks1d3]

I don't like synthesis myself because I could not imagine a more boring existence. The whole epilogue on synthesis makes it sound like utopia. If everything in life is now perfect, what else is there to achieve? If we now know everything, what is there to learn? "No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates." For me, the imperfections in life make it worth living.

[Iakus]

Has anyone else seen the parallels between Synthesis and Henry Lawson's genetic legacy?

[Rusty Sandusky]

The biggest problem I have with synthesis is that it turns a lot of people in the galaxy into Adam Jensen's.

[SwobyJ]

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't like synthesis myself because I could not imagine a more boring existence. The whole epilogue on synthesis makes it sound like utopia. If everything in life is now perfect, what else is there to achieve? If we now know everything, what is there to learn? "No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates." For me, the imperfections in life make it worth living.

I think they explain that.

"may even trascend mortality itself"

What is beyond mortality? Maybe, what is beyond this universe? There is always somewhere to advance to. This is what the Reapers failed at though - creating derps like Collectors when they could have had societies of EDIs and Legions and Kasumis or whatever (in various ways).

[SwobyJ]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

The biggest problem I have with synthesis is that it turns a lot of people in the galaxy into Adam Jensen's.

Not my biggest, but it is significant.

Part of what makes me not take it literally, and seek other explanations.


Another problem people have with it is that it changes everyone, everything, into something seemingly entirely different. Liara... is that still Liara, really? Geth... what happened to your Dyson plan? Jack... I guess here's your gun to off yourself. Save ammo for Javik..


But what if that's the point? EVERYTHING has changed into something else. Let's not treat it as the universe it once was. Maybe it's moved beyond our..understanding

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[SwobyJ]

iakus wrote...

Has anyone else seen the parallels between Synthesis and Henry Lawson's genetic legacy?

All of the ME2 missions contain keys to understanding ME3 imo. Just, omg, it's not overt! *bashes writing*

[Darks1d3]

SwobyJ wrote...

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't like synthesis myself because I could not imagine a more boring existence. The whole epilogue on synthesis makes it sound like utopia. If everything in life is now perfect, what else is there to achieve? If we now know everything, what is there to learn? "No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates." For me, the imperfections in life make it worth living.

I think they explain that.

"may even trascend mortality itself"

What is beyond mortality? Maybe, what is beyond this universe? There is always somewhere to advance to. This is what the Reapers failed at though - creating derps like Collectors when they could have had societies of EDIs and Legions and Kasumis or whatever (in various ways).

That comment alone bothers me. Death is as natural as life. Living forever in peace doesn't sound all that appealing to me. That's not to say I don't enjoy times of peace, but I wouldn't want to take them for granted either.

Modifié par Darks1d3, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[SwobyJ]

Darks1d3 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't like synthesis myself because I could not imagine a more boring existence. The whole epilogue on synthesis makes it sound like utopia. If everything in life is now perfect, what else is there to achieve? If we now know everything, what is there to learn? "No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates." For me, the imperfections in life make it worth living.

I think they explain that.

"may even trascend mortality itself"

What is beyond mortality? Maybe, what is beyond this universe? There is always somewhere to advance to. This is what the Reapers failed at though - creating derps like Collectors when they could have had societies of EDIs and Legions and Kasumis or whatever (in various ways).

That comment alone bothers me. Death is as natural as life. Living forever in peace doesn't sound all that appealing to me. That's not to say I don't enjoy peace, but I wouldn't want to take it for granted either.

Transcending mortality is to live forever, yes.

But transcendance itself can be beyond death OR life. It ultimately means being beyond the universe.

Remember what EDI said about, 'hey you know what Shepard, I've been wondering if in other universes, 2+2=3! everything would change!' or along those lines.

The idea is that Synthesis changed everything and everyone, in some way, but also hints that in doing so, 'we' may be able to explore not just galaxies, but universes. We've went from 'galaxy god scale' (Reapers) to 'universe god scale' (Intelligence?) to possibly 'multiverse god scale' (transcending mortality, aka life and death).


Obviously, in doing so, we potentially lose mortal perspective. It's seemingly only through Shepard's spreading of 'essence' (???) that it appears that everyone keeps the moral, or organic/human perspective, enough to not fall into Reaper or Collectorhood.



~~~
Gonna say right now that I like to think all the ending slides were, were virtual worlds in a MegaReaper being made on the Citadel. We 'hack' the development of said Reaper, leading it to come to different conclusions than the Cycle lameness, to bring in the new hotness (Destroy, Control, Synthesis). The actual universe isn't that changed, except maybe the relays are still actually wrecked.

You can back away slowly any time now.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[SwobyJ]

Killdren88 wrote...

So if your a person who got synthesized and didn't want it. "Heres a gun off yourself."

Synthesis makes them like it.

Synthesis = I CARE NOT FOR YOUR PETTY FREEDOMS

[Killdren88]

SwobyJ wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

So if your a person who got synthesized and didn't want it. "Heres a gun off yourself."

Synthesis makes them like it.

Synthesis = I CARE NOT FOR YOUR PETTY FREEDOMS

Ah, right..Brainwashing. " I love synthesis...I love it.."

[Darks1d3]

Killdren88 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

So if your a person who got synthesized and didn't want it. "Heres a gun off yourself."

Synthesis makes them like it.

Synthesis = I CARE NOT FOR YOUR PETTY FREEDOMS

Ah, right..Brainwashing. " I love synthesis...I love it.."

"There will be cookies!"

[SwobyJ]

Synthesis = They breach the Fade into Thedas

"WE COME IN PEACE"

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlanC9 wrote...


There's a less-flawed version of the argument, which is that Synthesis and Control have possible fail outcomes even if the Crucible does what it's supposed to do. Sheplyst goes nuts, Synthesis  doesn't actually solve the Catalyst's hypothetical problem because reasons, etc. The problem is that if we can make up hypothetical situations where Control and Synthesis are disasters, we can also do that for Destroy -- what if the Catalyst really is right about everything? -- and then we're nowhere, since we don't have any principled way to assign probabilities to any of the hypotheticals.

Here's another: maybe the Reapers are just "playing possum" in Destroy and waiting for everyone to get close...

... close enough to indoctrinate everyone!!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Reorte wrote...

There's nothing to suggest that synthetic life is at all that common, yet Synthesis will affect every living creature on every inhabitable planet in the entire galaxy, which is very likely to include huge numbers of sapient species we've never even heard of.

It'll affect every system with an active mass-relay. Not all systems have that.

Humans didn't have one until some fifty years before the events of ME3.

EDI doesn't prove anything. Sure, she may be more capable at a lot, do you value human lives based entirely on their capability, thus rendering some more worthy than others?

Not entirely, no. It depends on the circumstances, though. Sometimes 20 > 1, but at others, 1 > 20.

It depends on the situation, or did you not also save Zal'Koris on Rannoch at the expense of his civilian crewmen?

EDI is not only a person or a life, she is also the Normandy's weapons/cyberwarfare, defense, and maintenance systems. Geth are not only people/lives, they are also vaccines within the quarians' envirosuits. They are people. They are also resources, directly affecting the well-being of people. This is important, and must go into the calculus of the decision.

You're not only ending those lives, you're eliminating everything else of value they offer.

It reminds of a side-quest in ME2 where the Blue Suns launch two missiles into a colony, and Shepard can only stop one. One will hit a residential district with many civilians. The other will hit a spaceport with at the cost of no lives, but if it is destroyed, the colony is no longer viable for use. In that case, I save the civilians. Some folks save the 'port, though. However, if the scenario had been changed such that any significant number of humans were in the spaceport (not necessarily more of them than in the residential area, mind you, just a significant number), then I'd switch to spaceport.

Reorte wrote...

All we can assume is that the options do what they say they'll do in the immediate sense, that's quite different from what the likely outcomes of those actions will be. So Destroy destroys the Reapers, outcome obvious. Control controls them for now but leaves serious questions about the nature of the controller and how much you trust it'll carry on (since not allowing the Reapers a certain degree of free will rather runs contrary to their portrayal) and Synthesis either alters how people think or it does sweet FA about the Reapers. Saying it stops the whole Reaper issue, removes completely the very dubious risk that motivates the Catalyst, and doesn't alter peoples' minds at all is trying to have your cake and eat it.

I reject the mind-alteration hypothesis: for one, peace on Rannoch sets a precedent for conflicts nearing on complete genocide of the species at war being stopped on a dime, with both sides working together immediately; if that's not in dispute, why is this? Also, Sync epilogue largely presents people doing the same things as they would be in Destroy, Control.

I think that, without the Catalyst's mandate over them, the Reapers become like any other Mass Effect synthetics. I know they're technically hybrids, but they have no qualities of organics (eating, drinking, sex, feelings, age/evolution). ME synthetics don't really start conflicts as aggressors, simply they defend themselves from paranoid or greedy synthetics. Geth had paranoid quarians to deal with. EDI had control-freak TIM trying to shackle her and remotely control her (per Cerberus HQ logs). As it happens, though, Reapers are too powerful to be threatened, and organics needn't seek to dominate synthetics since they share a connection that benefits both parties. It leaves them no real basis for conflict with us.

Also, synthetics' motivations are different from ours. We have material wants. Synthetics, OTOH, want to serve a useful purpose. For EDI, it's serving the Normandy. For the geth, it's serving the quarians (post Rannoch peace). For the Catalyst, it was helping save organic life (... unfortunately). The Reapers are not organic. If they were, the notion of them dominating the galaxy because they have the power to would be compelling. They're not, though. More likely, they'll want to serve us.

It's not as if it's uncommon in BioWare games to see "monster" or "abomination" groups later become... reformed.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[SwobyJ]

"It's not as if it's uncommon in BioWare games to see "monster" or "abomination" groups later become... reformed."


Mhmmmmm.

Rachni.
Krogan.
Geth.
..Reaper???????????!!!!!!

[spinachdiaper]

I believe Synthesis was original intended as the officially unofficial "the ending", but now honestly it doesn't work if Bioware makes the next Mass Effect a sequel and that same problem applies to Refuse now as well. That is why I feel that the ending now is supposed to be a Schrodinger's Cat problem with no indication of which it was either Destroy or Control

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I reject the mind-alteration hypothesis: for one, peace on Rannoch sets a precedent for conflicts nearing on complete genocide of the species at war being stopped on a dime, with both sides working together immediately; if that's not in dispute, why is this? Also, Sync epilogue largely presents people doing the same things as they would be in Destroy, Control.

That peace can be achjieved on Rannoch if certain conditions are met is not in question.  What is in question is whether that peace will last.  

Synthesid slso shows that people have been altered at the genetic, perhaps even the molecular level.  Without their knowledge or consent.  It doesn't get much creepier than that to me.  I don't care how "beneficial" it is.  in Deus Ex ter,ms, i's like Sarif authorizing Adam's limbs be removed and organs taken out to be replaced by mechanical augments.  Now multiply that by a galaxy.

I think that, without the Catalyst's mandate over them, the Reapers become like any other Mass Effect synthetics. I know they're technically hybrids, but they have no qualities of organics (eating, drinking, sex, feelings, age/evolution). ME synthetics don't really start conflicts as aggressors, simply they defend themselves from paranoid or greedy synthetics. Geth had paranoid quarians to deal with. EDI had control-freak TIM trying to shackle her and remotely control her (per Cerberus HQ logs). As it happens, though, Reapers are too powerful to be threatened, and organics needn't seek to dominate synthetics since they share a connection that benefits both parties. It leaves them no real basis for conflict with us.

 

And if another purely organic species were ever to turn up?

"Accept Synthesis or be harvested"?

Also, synthetics' motivations are different from ours. We have material wants. Synthetics, OTOH, want to serve a useful purpose. For EDI, it's serving the Normandy. For the geth, it's serving the quarians (post Rannoch peace). For the Catalyst, it was helping save organic life (... unfortunately). The Reapers are not organic. If they were, the notion of them dominating the galaxy because they have the power to would be compelling. They're not, though. More likely, they'll want to serve us.

Th's, um, certainly..."idealistic"...

It's not as if it's uncommon in BioWare games to see "monster" or "abomination" groups later become... reformed.

Rarely is it ever done this badly, though

[SwobyJ]

Rachni - I would highly distrust a cloned Rachni queen that isn't the one I met, and I guess that's correct to do..
Krogan - I highly distrust a Genophage cure with Wreav and no Eve
Geth - I highly distrust a Reaper Code upgraded Geth from the GethVI and not Legion, especially without Quarians with them in a more peaceful relationship

The issue I have is that Synthesis doesn't seem to require clear 'terms' for 'success' except a High EMS. Unless we don't have the full story.