375 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

spinachdiaper wrote...

I believe Synthesis was original intended as the officially unofficial "the ending", but now honestly it doesn't work if Bioware makes the next Mass Effect a sequel and that same problem applies to Refuse now as well. That is why I feel that the ending now is supposed to be a Schrodinger's Cat problem with no indication of which it was either Destroy or Control

Schrodinger's Cat only applies to the Breath Scene in teh Destroy ending. This is according to Jessica Merizan of Bioware.

Synthesis did require the highest EMS in the Original Ending - 4000 EMS, and you couldn't get it if you didn't play any multiplayer. The Breath Scene in Destroy required the second most EMS which you couldn't get if you didn't play any multiplayer. Or you can create a dystopia if you want. It depends upon what mood you're in. Green, Red, or Blue.

Refuse never existed until the EC. Then it became Refuse? You lose. It does not unlock the game ending achievement like the others. It is a critical mission failure. You just decide to watch the galaxy burn.

[SwobyJ]

Could be wrong julia, but I think the original endings were:

-2800+ EMS --> Synthesis unlocks
-2650-3999 EMS --> High Destroy unlocks
-4000-4999 EMS --> High Destroy ... or Breath Destroy unlocks if Anderson survived initial encounter
-5000+ EMS --> Breath Destroy unlocks if Anderson died in initial encounter


(I also got Synthesis in my first playthrough without ANY multiplayer. However, I did have a transferred file with very 'optimal' choices made from ME1-ME2, and I did From Ashes, and I think I did almost everything in ME3 that I could, but I didn't metagame, but RPed throughout)

Anyway, if my info is correct, Breath Destroy is the highest unlockable original ending, with the requirement of 4000-5000 EMS depending on Anderson's fate with TIM.

The second highest is Synthesis which required 2800 EMS.

The third is High Destroy which required 2650 EMS.

The fourth is High Control which required 2350 EMS.

Then you deal with various blah versions of Destroy and Control.


This makes the Synthesis, High Destroy, and High Control endings quite possible in a single playthrough when the game came out, without MP. However, Synthesis and High Destroy were, yeah, tougher.

The tricky one was BREATH DESTROY, as 4000-5000 EMS was pretty impossible. Maybe 4000 was possible but I dunno. 5000? Fat chance. This leads to speculation on whether Breath is:
A)A legit 'ending' as viewed by Bioware, and that's that ("Shepard lives! You earned this!"....)
B)Just incredibly tasteless imagination fuel, not to be really followed up on ever ("Shepard may or may not have lived! You earned this!...) However, Bioware has all but confirmed that B isn't what they're doing, at least at this point.
C)An Easter Egg, intended to be followed up on, but it doesn't matter if we actually get the specific ending or not. ("Shepard made it! But you don't need this ending, we just wanted to give you some extra hope .")

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Synthesis did require the highest EMS in the Original Ending - 4000 EMS, and you couldn't get it if you didn't play any multiplayer. 

Actually, SwobyJ is correct; the pre-EC Synthesis threshold was under 3000. Easily doable without MP.

The breath clip was not doable. Max EMS without DLC was something under 3700

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

Rachni - I would highly distrust a cloned Rachni queen that isn't the one I met, and I guess that's correct to do..
Krogan - I highly distrust a Genophage cure with Wreav and no Eve
Geth - I highly distrust a Reaper Code upgraded Geth from the GethVI and not Legion, especially without Quarians with them in a more peaceful relationship

You're not supposed to trust them. Relationships are designed to matter in those arcs. Wreav even goes to war in Control with that set up even if it's a pointless thing for him to do. But hey, he gets a nice Darwin Award out of it.

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Rachni - I would highly distrust a cloned Rachni queen that isn't the one I met, and I guess that's correct to do..
Krogan - I highly distrust a Genophage cure with Wreav and no Eve
Geth - I highly distrust a Reaper Code upgraded Geth from the GethVI and not Legion, especially without Quarians with them in a more peaceful relationship

You're not supposed to trust them. Relationships are designed to matter in those arcs. Wreav even goes to war in Control with that set up even if it's a pointless thing for him to do. But hey, he gets a nice Darwin Award out of it.

Yep I know, exactly.
(even for Rachni, we speak with the Queen and it seemingly shows empathy and care, despite the creepy scene in Novaria)

The Reapers... yeah, there's nothin.

The way they Reapers operate, the only way they could get anyone on their side would be, surprise, indoctrination. Convince a person gradually that control/technological resistance may be possible, and eventually, convince them that merging with Reapers is possible... and ideal.

It doesn't even mean it's disaster - just that Synthesis is... what the Reapers were aiming for.
And if they're as sapient and responsible as it SEEMS they are (regardless of Intelligence's mandate), they do NOT deserve it. Or at least Harbinger doesn't. Jerk.

But choosing Synthesis imo is more of a moral decision. Synthesis advocates do have a point - if the Reapers are all but enslaved by the concept of the Cycle and they exist on a whole other moral plane, why are we not speaking on their level? To them, killing a civilization might be like messing up an ant colony that when allowed to grow, will mess up a home..

Or somethin. Whatever, I think you know what I mean. They REAP, based on a most ancient misunderstanding by very (ethically) stupid and greedy Leviathans. Only Harbinger now seems to have any real autonomy, and he seems more like the kid that tears off the wings of bugs just to see them flail around. If anyone should die, it is him, but .... I'm not ENTIRELY sure about the rest, and how enslaved they are (if at all) to the Cycle.

It's a decision made without full context, and I think that's intended. We very well may be more trained into Destroy in this game, but future games may show a degree of validity to the others - or at least describe possible benefits from choosing them.

NONE of this means Reapers are remotely good guys, to be entirely clear. But perhaps they, with exception to Harbinger(?), could be closer to amoral failures trapped in their own doom (harvested species make up a Reaper...), instead of 'muahahaa' bad guyz or utterly unknowable Cthulhus.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Deathsaurer]

I get the impression Harbinger has been doing this so long he just enjoys being hammy about it because what else can you do? The overlord isn't going to let this stop until it finds what it wants so let's have some fun with it, it's not like anyone is dying right? wink wink nudge nudge

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

I get the impression Harbinger has been doing this so long he just enjoys being hammy about it because what else can you do? The overlord isn't going to let this stop until it finds what it wants so let's have some fun with it, it's not like anyone is dying right? wink wink nudge nudge

LOL

I get the impression he relishes it and would not let go of the Cycle without a fight. It feeds into what we can now identify as Leviathan megalomania.

Unless a weird and vaguely explained blue or green or red wave hits him sure..

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:21 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

iakus wrote...

And if another purely organic species were ever to turn up?

"Accept Synthesis or be harvested"?

How about... nothing?

Also, synthetics' motivations are different from ours. We have material wants. Synthetics, OTOH, want to serve a useful purpose. For EDI, it's serving the Normandy. For the geth, it's serving the quarians (post Rannoch peace). For the Catalyst, it was helping save organic life (... unfortunately). The Reapers are not organic. If they were, the notion of them dominating the galaxy because they have the power to would be compelling. They're not, though. More likely, they'll want to serve us.

Th's, um, certainly..."idealistic"...

I am not an idealist. I have no clue how you can see idealism in any post of mine if you're at all acquainted with me.

This is a theme that came up not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times: synthetics want purpose/meaningful work. It came up with EDI asking you what the purpose of synthetic life is. It came up with Legion explaining the geth wish to serve the quarians again. It came up with Javik declaring that synthetics know their purpose while we search aimlessly for ours -- which Shepard rebuffs by saying that EDI actually doesn't. It came up when the Catalyst spoke proudly of the cycle because he believed he was working in the greater-good. Two is a trend. I counted four.

Now we come to the issue of the Reapers, another synthetic race (organic components irrelvant, for reasons I covered earlier). It's the same thing, because that's how it works in this setting. And think about it: what could they gain by galactic conquest? The answer is: nothing. It is a fear/imagined scenario by those who (wrongly) imbue them with organic motives.

It's also worth noting that... that's exactly what happens in the Green epilogue.

My logic is sound. If you can dispute it, by all means...

It's not as if it's uncommon in BioWare games to see "monster" or "abomination" groups later become... reformed.

Rarely is it ever done this badly, though

May I ask your opinion of DA:A's ending, perchance? I know it made me think of ... this place.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:29 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If you cured the genophage with Wreav and no Eve you'd better pick Control. Synthesis isn't going to stop Wreav. Control is.

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

iakus wrote...

And if another purely organic species were ever to turn up?

"Accept Synthesis or be harvested"?

How about... nothing?

Why?  Organics and synthetics can't get along.  COnflict is inevitable.  Purely organic beings are a threat to the balance!

Th's, um, certainly..."idealistic"...[

I am not an idealist. I have no clue how you can see idealism in any post of mine if you're at all acquainted with me.

You're assuming that synthetics have this inherent desire to serve.  Why should they want to serve any more than an organic would want to serve?  You disregard free will, and the ability to choose to do something other than serve.

Synthetics are made for a purpose.  But that is only a starting point.  Look at the Heretic geth, who spied on their True geth bretheren and even plotted to change them to serve the Reapers along with them. 

It's not as if it's uncommon in BioWare games to see "monster" or "abomination" groups later become... reformed.

Rarely is it ever done this badly, though

May I ask your opinion of DA:A's ending, perchance? I know it made me think of ... this place.

Kind of abrupt.  I've both killed the Architect and let him go in different games.  But the Mother demonstrates that  "synthesis" is not a perfect solution.

[Deathsaurer]

iakus wrote...

You're assuming that synthetics have this inherent desire to serve.  Why should they want to serve any more than an organic would want to serve?  You disregard free will, and the ability to choose to do something other than serve.

Synthetics are made for a purpose.  But that is only a starting point.  Look at the Heretic geth, who spied on their True geth bretheren and even plotted to change them to serve the Reapers along with them.

Most of the Geth clearly had issues moving past the idea of serving the Quarians. Even in ME2 they were cleaning the aftermath of the Morning War, treating it as a memorial and preparing Rannoch for the Quarians return when they made peace. A small minority proved to be problematic with some outside prodding. Similarly the Catalyst has been obsessed with its directive for millions, perhaps up to a billion, years.

[dirtdog13]

  Ah, "let's turn everyone into Borg" ending with space magic and nose dive into green goo.

Nothing wrong with that.

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
(1) Reapers do not murder post-Sync

LOL supposition.  LOL Headcanon.  I may have found a new sig.

edit:  seriously, if we're accepting unsubstantiated personal interpretations as valid arguments here, imma just gonna post this link:

http://www.fanfictio...459/1/Strangers

...and have done with it.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:57 .

[Reorte]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
(1) Reapers do not murder post-Sync

LOL supposition.  LOL Headcanon.  I may have found a new sig.

edit:  seriously, if we're accepting unsubstantiated personal interpretations as valid arguments here, imma just gonna post this link:

http://www.fanfictio...459/1/Strangers

...and have done with it.

The EC rather strongly implies that they don't, and even without it the authorial intention appeared to be that they don't. Unfortunately for Synthesis it completely fails to offer any rational (or any at all) explanation as to why. Things happen because the plot says "Doing X means Y happens", no matter how little sense that makes.

[Stakrin]

Reorte wrote...

The EC rather strongly implies that they don't, and even without it the authorial intention appeared to be that they don't. Unfortunately for Synthesis it completely fails to offer any rational (or any at all) explanation as to why. Things happen because the plot says "Doing X means Y happens", no matter how little sense that makes.

right, but it sort of does explain it. 

The reapers kill because the catalyst tells then to preserve life. After synthesis, the catalyst learns (as well as other AI) how to understand and feel organic emotion. Presumably, not all reapers have to listen to the catalyst anymore anyway, and they may remember when they were a culture, so they already know how it works (aren't many reapers old Civilizations that were harvested?)
as for the catalyst, I wonder if he is getting lonely.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
(1) Reapers do not murder post-Sync

LOL supposition.  LOL Headcanon.  I may have found a new sig.

edit:  seriously, if we're accepting unsubstantiated personal interpretations as valid arguments here, imma just gonna post this link:

http://www.fanfictio...459/1/Strangers

...and have done with it.

If you're going to post links, link tags are much more user-friendly.

What's the evidence that Reapers do murder post-sync? Why would they?

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:53 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 'Didn't see this post...

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

iakus wrote...

And if another purely organic species were ever to turn up?

"Accept Synthesis or be harvested"?

How about... nothing?

Why?  Organics and synthetics can't get along.  COnflict is inevitable.  Purely organic beings are a threat to the balance!

It's not an issue of "getting along" that is solved through Sync. What's solved is power-related motivations of organics, which is the root of these particular conflicts -- organics seeking to manipulate synthetics for their own benefit, or seeking to maintain power over them. Resulting conflicts do not require all or even a lot of organics to start them, just a few of them with power and influence, and it can end tragically for many who are uninvolved. The quarians' wars with the geth are an example -- the quarians didn't support either war, but it cost many of their lives. Sometimes there are accidents with rogue VIs, like Project Overlord, or the Hahne-Kedar(sp?) VI that took control of LOKIs and massacred organics in ME2.

Sync allows organics to "fully integrate with technology" [sic]. Insofar as I understand it, organics are now able to establish a connection between themselves and other advanced machines, allowing them to acquire a variety of abilities once exclusive to synthetics. Because of this, you will no longer have folks like TIM or Xen seeking to empower themselves (or others) through controlling other synthetics, because all organics now hold this power. You will not have accidents like Overlord because the ability to connect an organic mind to another machine will be seamless (and what they were aiming to accomplish -- communication w/ the geth -- will likely be available to them). You will no longer have fear of synthetics growing "too" advanced or powerful, because organics will be able to keep up with them naturally.

This is my understanding of the Green ending. I daresay it is the right interpretation, too.

You're assuming that synthetics have this inherent desire to serve.  Why should they want to serve any more than an organic would want to serve?  You disregard free will, and the ability to choose to do something other than serve.

Synthetics are made for a purpose.  But that is only a starting point.  Look at the Heretic geth, who spied on their True geth bretheren and even plotted to change them to serve the Reapers along with them.

Because they are not organic to begin with. Our psychology is driven by a biological nature that they do not share with us. Organic needs for resources do not exist among synthetic, and most wants probably do not exist with them, either.

Synthetics gain nothing by "taking over the galaxy"-nonsense.

All possible motivations for that are purely of organic interest.

May I ask your opinion of DA:A's ending, perchance? I know it made me think of ... this place.

Kind of abrupt.  I've both killed the Architect and let him go in different games.  But the Mother demonstrates that  "synthesis" is not a perfect solution.

Interesting.

*** WARNING: DA:A Spoilers ahoy! ... n00bs be warned! ***

Canonically, I support the Architect. I don't liken his solution to Sync but my reasons for helping him are somewhat similar. I see it as an opportunity to weaken the Darkspawn from the inside. Freeing them of their connection to the Old Gods allows them to defect, costing their horde its manpower. Also, the ideological schism between intelligent Darkspawn creates in-fighting, costing their horde its unity. It's not a perfect solution, but it's still a worthwhile one.

/spoilers

And in truth, I didn't choose Sync expecting it to work out perfectly. I had different expectations than what EC did.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
Why?  Organics and synthetics can't get along.  COnflict is inevitable.  Purely organic beings are a threat to the balance!

How could they threaten the balance? By being inferior?

[Obadiah]

To add the HYR 2.0 post, with respect to slave labor to perform dangerous tasks. I think in Synthesis, full integration means that people will be able to interface and control drones; perhaps even inhabit multiple drones as EDI does with EVA and Normandy. Thus no need to require AI to do this.

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:17 .

[AlexMBrennan]

To add the HYR 2.0 post, with respect to slave labor to perform dangerous tasks. I think in Synthesis, full integration means that people will be able to interface and control drones; perhaps even inhabit multiple drones as EDI does with EVA and Normandy. Thus no need to require AI to do this.

So you're inventing a new brand of synthetics that somehow get around the effects of Synthesis and thus are a new threat to all life in the galaxy... Brilliant.

What's more, if that sort of thing was possible then Synthesis never was a solution to the tech singularity at all (to be a solution, it would have to prevent the creation of non-organic-hybrid synthetics)

[essarr71]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Why?  Organics and synthetics can't get along.  COnflict is inevitable.  Purely organic beings are a threat to the balance!

How could they threaten the balance? By being inferior?

I seem to remember a game trilogy that dealt with this problem from the inferior side. Turns out the inferior side eventually won. 

[Obadiah]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

To add the HYR 2.0 post, with respect to slave labor to perform dangerous tasks. I think in Synthesis, full integration means that people will be able to interface and control drones; perhaps even inhabit multiple drones as EDI does with EVA and Normandy. Thus no need to require AI to do this.

So you're inventing a new brand of synthetics that somehow get around the effects of Synthesis and thus are a new threat to all life in the galaxy... Brilliant.

What's more, if that sort of thing was possible then Synthesis never was a solution to the tech singularity at all (to be a solution, it would have to prevent the creation of non-organic-hybrid synthetics)

Actually I was explaining why AI slaves would no longer be necessary, which impacts the Organic Synthetic war because as HYR 2.0 indicated the war is not about... oh nevermind.

[Whitering]

The Wiki makes it sound like if you destroy the Reaper in ME2 then your easiest choice in ME3 is the destroy ending (don't know about the Breath, that still may be highest), but if you keep the Reaper base then Synthesis is the easiest one to get.

I don't know I have tried different levels and only played 3/4 of the 3rd game anyway. I will play it through when I finish my current ME2 playthrough, but I have installed the happy ending mod.

I would have picked Synthesis merely because that's the one that would screw everybody who didn't believe me and get their act together before the Reapers showed up.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Why the Catalyst is making an illegitimate argument for the necessity of synthesis.

Great post by Nightwriter about why Synthesis is rejected by many.

My links about Synthesis and Control.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 13 novembre 2013 - 11:55 .

[jtav]

Whitering wrote...

The Wiki makes it sound like if you destroy the Reaper in ME2 then your easiest choice in ME3 is the destroy ending (don't know about the Breath, that still may be highest), but if you keep the Reaper base then Synthesis is the easiest one to get.

I don't know I have tried different levels and only played 3/4 of the 3rd game anyway. I will play it through when I finish my current ME2 playthrough, but I have installed the happy ending mod.

I would have picked Synthesis merely because that's the one that would screw everybody who didn't believe me and get their act together before the Reapers showed up.

Not quite. If you destroy the base, Destroy is your only option with really low EMS and the high-EMS variant (sans breath scene) unlocks at a lower threshold. The same is true for Control if you keep the base. Synthesis always requires 2800.