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[AlanC9]

essarr71 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Why?  Organics and synthetics can't get along.  COnflict is inevitable.  Purely organic beings are a threat to the balance!

How could they threaten the balance? By being inferior?

I seem to remember a game trilogy that dealt with this problem from the inferior side. Turns out the inferior side eventually won. 

Heh. Kind of beside the point, though. Staying purely organic doesn't give an advantage. It just makes you weaker.

iakus is either confused or just vamping; not really sure which. The dynamic of Synthesis is that synthetics gain understanding while organics gain power. Unsynthesized organics might be a threat, but unsynthesized organics aren't.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 novembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[ruggly]

So what's the point of having AI if we can do everything they can now?

[FREEGUNNER]

It doesn't fix the main problem though. It just merges man and machine so that everyone is a cyborg...those cyborgs in time will go on to create new machines to do work for the sake of efficiency. Machines that will eventually rebel again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ruggly wrote...

So what's the point of having AI if we can do everything they can now?

Not much. There's really no purpose for them to exist beyond studying their nature from a deontological and metaphysical analysis of life and existence.

Take a look:

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Since I can't easily link it too you, I'll post the whole context of the topic here. It's from the Cerberus Vindication Thread.

FROM THE CERBERUS VINDICATION THREAD - EXPLANATION FOR MY DISLIKE OF SYNTHESIS, CONTROL, AND THE ENDING:

I don't support Synthesis or Control for a variety of reasons, namely:

-Because it is narratively and thematically inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy (along with the entire overarching ending)
Because it scientifically, biologically, and logically doesn't make sense. 

-Going along with the Reapers, I'm not about to believe this entity I just met on faith about what the Reapers really are when its own logic and perfect solutions don't make any sense based on what I believe is a programming and/or hardware error, and when every single past experience with the Reapers showed me the opposite of what this little dude is telling me.

-That he might be manipulating me based on the knowledge that that is what they do and have always done (indoctrination or no).

-The very history that this guy is contradicting because his very own creations (that he controls as you say) have actually instigated the very conflict he is supposedly trying to prevent.

-How he fails to consecutively define the term 'synthetic'.

-Because the whole premise on why this entire problem exists is flawed due to the arrogant belief of a bunch of giant crabs (that look really tasty) are destined to rule the universe and that they cannot be worshipped if the people they enthrall keep building machines that kill them because the giant crabs have enslaved the people that worship them make them perform difficult tasks that require the assistance of intelligent machines to assist with said tasks.

It's not something I just take on faith. I'm not wired that way to accept claims like that, especially when so much evidence contradicts it.

XILIZHRA'S RESPONSE:

This'd be reasonable, except that all of this also makes Destroy suspect; if the Catalyst is lying to you and trying to harm you in some manner, it probably has all of the options rigged to kill/indoctrinate you. At that point, it's shooting in the dark.

As for the rest, that's just down to differences of opinion, either between you and the Catalyst or between you and the creators. I personally don't consider them to conflict with the overarching narrative. I do consider Renegade Shepard's actions and supporting Cerberus to do so, when you don't. Neither of us has an advantage of objective truth here.

MY RESPONSE AND MY REASONING FOR DESTROY IN THIS CASE HOW THE CATALYST FAILS TO DEFINE THE TERM 'SYNTHETIC':

Firstly, I don't think the Catalyst is capable of withholding information. That's why it mentions destroy. But I do think it is capable of using deceit. I do think it is overtly trying to portray destroy in a negative light to entice Shepard to choose a solution more on its own preference. An example of this is when it uses multiple definitions for the term 'synthetic'. 

First, it implies that all synthetic creations, from the Geth, EDI, to things like synthetic flesh, organs, VI's, etc, will be affected. It implies this when it says "even you are partly synthetic"

Going by the definition that I used of synthetic flesh and organs, this is true. I am partly synthetic.

Going by the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence, or synthetic life, this is not true. I am not synthetic in this manner. There is no AI in me at all. I am a human being, with a few synthetic organs, no, there is no part of me that would qualify as synthetic sapient life. I am not 'partly synthetic' in that regard.

Then when it defines synthesis and who will be affected, it mentions that synthetics will be merged with organics... which we already can do. I'm an example. I'm standing right in front of the Catalyst.

Yet the Catalyst uses the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence. It makes it clear that it is talking about things like EDI and the Geth. 

And it says how necessary and vital they, so much so that I supposedly can't imagine my life without them.

Except I can. EDI is one synthetic. One. And she's only a year or two old. The Geth meanwhile have existed for over 300 years.... the majority of which they have been isolated from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, it was only just recently that I talked them into joining the war effort. Also, the council expressly forbids the creation of AI's and imposes very harsh penalties for doing so. These laws are effective enough that synthetic sapient intelligence is quite rare and not an influencing factor at all in everyday life. So why does the Catalyst believe that they are now essential to everyday life?

But the point is, yes I can envision my life without synthetic intelligence. I've literally been doing it for almost all of my life. As has most of the galaxy for centuries. 

This assertion is false.... unless my prosthetic gall bladder is going to go on a crusade against my pancreas.

It's this little... contradiction that makes me think he's trying to downplay destroy. He doesn't want me to pick it. He's hoping he can convince or manipulate me into following the path he desires. He may not be able to hide the fact that destroy exists, but he can try to deceive me on the nature of it, and him.

As for the rest, I guess I'll agree to that, if for no other reason than I'm rather weary from arguing now, and really don't want to bring in an ending debate.

Here's the page that this appeared on.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Firstly, I don't think the Catalyst is capable of withholding information. That's why it mentions destroy. But I do think it is capable of using deceit. I do think it is overtly trying to portray destroy in a negative light to entice Shepard to choose a solution more on its own preference. An example of this is when it uses multiple definitions for the term 'synthetic'.

Why would it not be?

It's this little... contradiction that makes me think he's trying to downplay destroy. He doesn't want me to pick it. He's hoping he can convince or manipulate me into following the path he desires. He may not be able to hide the fact that destroy exists, but he can try to deceive me on the nature of it, and him.

If true, why does it matter? The Catalyst does not want to continue the harvest, and in fact prefers for you to destroy over refusal. Whatever the options are, them being a roundabout way to continue the harvest makes no sense.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ruggly wrote...

So what's the point of having AI if we can do everything they can now?

Sync establishes a means for organics to connect with external devices/machines, so the more tech you have, the better. Without any advanced technology, Sync brings about no changes -- you're left with an new ability you cannot make use of.

AI are particularly useful because they can handle a variety of different functions and adapt new ones ver easily.

Other machines are limited to the functions they were built for and cannot adapt without being manually changed.

[AlanC9]

Which means that after Synthesis there's no particular reason to make a new pure AI race, since anything new pure AIs could do can be done already by the existing post-organics (or post-synthetics; whether beings trace their heritage back to organic or synthetic ancestors isn't all that relevant).

And even if some group does create new pure AIs for no obvious reason, those AIs still can't out-"evolve" the former organics, who are now as fully upgradeable as synthetics.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 novembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[KaiserShep]

I always found the premise behind it rather silly. So you change the fundamental framework of life, and attempt to keep chaos in check, but in this context, chaos is so vague it becomes meaningless. There would still be struggles for superiority, competition for resources and territory and all-out war as a result at some point, unless, of course, everyone is lobotomized, sedated, and any inclination they have toward pride, bias, aggression et al are wiped from their heads. Unless there's some kind of inescapable hegemonic caste system that can dictate the minutia of everyone's way of life (Control), there's always going to be chaos until the eventual heat death of the galaxy or the Milky Way's collision with Andromeda and beyond. So what is the point? I see it more as simply taking the result on its face, and not really considering the gobbledegook that comprises it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 novembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[ruggly]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

So what's the point of having AI if we can do everything they can now?

Sync establishes a means for organics to connect with external devices/machines, so the more tech you have, the better. Without any advanced technology, Sync brings about no changes -- you're left with an new ability you cannot make use of.

AI are particularly useful because they can handle a variety of different functions and adapt new ones ver easily.

Other machines are limited to the functions they were built for and cannot adapt without being manually changed.

Yes, but post-synthesis it seems we are able to do any and all tasks that the AI were previously built to do, and we can adapt to new tasks as well.  It seems to make having AI around now fairly pointless, or at least in my opinion.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

There would still be struggles for superiority, competition for resources and territory and all-out war as a result at some point, unless, of course, everyone is lobotomized, sedated, and any inclination they have toward pride, bias, aggression et al are wiped from their heads.

Everyone has access to the Reaper databases which would include stuff like a complete relay map, much better power generation, space station tech which can be used for agriculture and population expansion even in currently hazorous enviroments, probably better agricultural tech in general, terraforming, etc. The conflict in this setting is going to come when they meet someone in another galaxy.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
What's the evidence that Reapers do murder post-sync? Why would they?

Simple logic, I'm afraid.

Why would they not?  They are essentially sentient weapons of mass destruction. They were designed and created for the purpose of exterminateing advancedorganic life.

Now, the ONLY reason that the Reapers would NOT use the tools they were given post-Synthesis is if something was actively preventing them from doing so.  If they were still being controlled.  Apparently that's not the case.  The Reapers are apparently "free" - post-Synthesis - to act as they please.

Now, as each Reaper was created from one of the dominant races of their respective cycles, it's fair to assume thata percentage of the Reapers will have been created from races with violent, imperialist or predatorial tendancies.  Like the Krogan, the Batarians,the Protheans or Humanity... in which case,if they truly are "free" to act as they please and if they trulyare governed by a racial conciousness, it's only a matter of time before they instigate a conflict.  And at that point only two things would beable to stop them - the Catalyst assuming direct control and re-enslaving them, or other Reapers joining the conflict.

Now, assume they ARE all still controlled by the Catalyst.  Who post-synthesis would now be imbued with the capacity for organic thought reasoning... and also negative organic emotion including hate, jealousy, petulance,anger, frustration and more... well, that's simply a disaster waiting to happen, isn't it?  Bad enough having a poorly-constructed AI with faulty logic controlling the Reapers without one who's thoroughly capable of throwing it's toys out of the pram at any given moment.

Reorte wrote...
The EC rather strongly implies that they don't, and even without it the authorial intention appeared to be that they don't. Unfortunately for Synthesis it completely fails to offer any rational (or any at all) explanation as to why. Things happen because the plot says "Doing X means Y happens", no matter how little sense that makes.

Yep, the EC does suggest that the Reapers are somewhat helpful post-Synthesis (at least, at first), but as you rightly state it doesn't explain why and certinly doesn't show us the long term consequences of the decision.  As the link (fan fiction though it may be) I posted earlier shows, the Reapers "helpfulness" post-synthesis could quite easily be an artifical construct.  After all, with a pacified and awed populace no longer fighting back against them, they're essentially free to do what they will.  All hail our new space-crustaecean overlords.

Stakrin wrote...
The reapers kill because the catalyst tells then to preserve life. After synthesis, the catalyst learns (as well as other AI) how to understand and feel organic emotion. Presumably, not all reapers have to listen to the catalyst anymore anyway, and they may remember when they were a culture, so they already know how it works (aren't many reapers old Civilizations that were harvested?)  as for the catalyst, I wonder if he is getting lonely.

All of which opens up terrifying new possibilities...

[Deathsaurer]

Haven't people been arguing since the EC, rightly so IMO, that the Catalyst's preservation methods are fallacious? That while the Reapers are created from organic species they are not an actual representation of those species due to the AI conversion which was done against their will? We all agree the Collectors aren't Protheans anymore right? Why would Harbinger be (like) a Leviathan?

[Stakrin]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Haven't people been arguing since the EC, rightly so IMO, that the Catalyst's preservation methods are fallacious? That while the Reapers are created from organic species they are not an actual representation of those species due to the AI conversion which was done against their will? We all agree the Collectors aren't Protheans anymore right? Why would Harbinger be (like) a Leviathan?

right now he isn't, because the thing that is controlling him isn't. 

After synthesis the catalyst would lose control , as they are no longer just machines-so it's possible that harbinger will adopt a leviathan mindset, and if that's true we could learn a lot from the reapers.

[Ieldra]

Some time ago, I made a post listing points that make people hate Synthesis, in order to illustrate that while I choose that ending with a preference, I do, in fact, understand most points raised against it and even agree with them to a point. I'll link it here for reference. Incidentally, it also lists very concisely the reasons why I choose it in spite of the flaws. 

[Deathsaurer]

Stakrin wrote...

right now he isn't, because the thing that is controlling him isn't. 

After synthesis the catalyst would lose control , as they are no longer just machines-so it's possible that harbinger will adopt a leviathan mindset, and if that's true we could learn a lot from the reapers.

Harbinger is certainly a Reaper I'd be worried about running of with its own agenda but that isn't going to be the Leviathan agenda. Harbinger isn't a Leviathan anymore, he's an AI with a set if directives and a vasly different view on things than the Leviathans have. This isn't a case like the Awakened Collectors (which are disputed anyways) where you have the memories of a long dead Prothean asserting themselves on a blank slate via genetic memory voodoo powers, this is one of the oldest, most advanced AIs in the galaxy with its own views and opinions on matters.

[Stakrin]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Stakrin wrote...

right now he isn't, because the thing that is controlling him isn't. 

After synthesis the catalyst would lose control , as they are no longer just machines-so it's possible that harbinger will adopt a leviathan mindset, and if that's true we could learn a lot from the reapers.

Harbinger is certainly a Reaper I'd be worried about running of with its own agenda but that isn't going to be the Leviathan agenda. Harbinger isn't a Leviathan anymore, he's an AI with a set if directives and a vasly different view on things than the Leviathans have. This isn't a case like the Awakened Collectors (which are disputed anyways) where you have the memories of a long dead Prothean asserting themselves on a blank slate via genetic memory voodoo powers, this is one of the oldest, most advanced AIs in the galaxy with its own views and opinions on matters.

but synthesis blurs the line between organic and synthetic, and he understands organic emotion and rationale after synthesis, so he doenst have much if a reason to create chaos. 
Unless in he future he wants to claim the galaxy for his own,, but as far as the RC goes everybody is pretty peaceful.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Now, as each Reaper was created from one of the dominant races of their respective cycles, it's fair to assume thata percentage of the Reapers will have been created from races with violent, imperialist or predatorial tendancies.  Like the Krogan, the Batarians,the Protheans or Humanity... in which case,if they truly are "free" to act as they please and if they trulyare governed by a racial conciousness, it's only a matter of time before they instigate a conflict.  And at that point only two things would beable to stop them - the Catalyst assuming direct control and re-enslaving them, or other Reapers joining the conflict.

I asked for evidence, not theory. But since I knew you didn't actually have evidence, this is fine

So you're saying that the Reapers might become individually militaristic as their individual cultures re-emerge? Assuming that's true --unlikely, as others note -- you don't get a war against "the Reapers." You get a problem with policing the acts of individual Reapers.

[Deathsaurer]

Stakrin wrote...

but synthesis blurs the line between organic and synthetic, and he understands organic emotion and rationale after synthesis, so he doenst have much if a reason to create chaos. 
Unless in he future he wants to claim the galaxy for his own,, but as far as the RC goes everybody is pretty peaceful.

I could definitely see Harbinger deciding he could do a better job leading the galaxy than the newly accended races which is the main thing I'd be worried about. The question is how many of the other Reapers would back him in such an event? There is only so much he can do alone.

[KaiserShep]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

There would still be struggles for superiority, competition for resources and territory and all-out war as a result at some point, unless, of course, everyone is lobotomized, sedated, and any inclination they have toward pride, bias, aggression et al are wiped from their heads.

Everyone has access to the Reaper databases which would include stuff like a complete relay map, much better power generation, space station tech which can be used for agriculture and population expansion even in currently hazorous enviroments, probably better agricultural tech in general, terraforming, etc. The conflict in this setting is going to come when they meet someone in another galaxy.

None of this precludes conflict between species or nations. Vast amounts of data and access to wildly advanced technology won't stop aggressive, highly organized species being what they are. They will still be greedy, stubborn, prideful and struggle for superiority. The thing that factors into this, of course, is the fact that the reapers are still up and kicking during all this. An extragalactic threat seems very unlikely in this scenario unless you go bigger and badder than the reapers, in which case it's certain death for everyone, but there's nothing that prevents conflict between species unless you get rid of things as simple as selfishness.

There is only two ways to get rid of war forever, and that's simply to rid the galaxy of intelligent life, or reduce its faculties considerably.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 novembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...

There is only two ways to get rid of war forever, and that's simply to rid the galaxy of intelligent life, or reduce its faculties considerably.

I can think of a couple others, but they're all equally drastic. I'm not sure outright war is possible at the end of the Hyperion Cantos, for instance.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

None of this precludes conflict between species or nations. Vast amounts of data and access to wildly advanced technology won't stop aggressive, highly organized species being what they are. They will still be greedy, stubborn, prideful and struggle for superiority.

Thing is when everyone can build devices that can destroy solar systems the value of a war goes out the window fast. It's a MAD setting. You're better off not goind down that road. Why start a war that could totally destroy your speices when you can just build a few more space stations or terraform another planet?

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...


Which means that after Synthesis there's no particular reason to make a new pure AI race, since anything new pure AIs could do can be done already by the existing post-organics (or post-synthetics; whether beings trace their heritage back to organic or synthetic ancestors isn't all that relevant).

And even if some group does create new pure AIs for no obvious reason, those AIs still can't out-"evolve" the former organics, who are now as fully upgradeable as synthetics.

The AIs will appear anyway because synthesised beings still won't want or be able to do everything, they'll still build machines (after all I doubt a synthesised human will be able to do the job of most heavy machinery on their own), and they'll want those machines to be able to operate themselves, so they can go off and enjoy themselves whilst their new spaceships or buildings get built by the machines. That'll inevitably result in more capability being added to the machines until you end up with AI ones. In other words exactly like the geth - synthesis changes nothing there.

The whole "out-evolving" part is nonsense since absolutely nothing about what Synthesis does is defined. Precisely what capabilities does it add that makes it impossible for AIs to succesfully attack? The AIs would still be able to wipe out non-technological planets that have been synthesised if they so desired, and the aid of non-sapient computers would probably equalise things enough if non-synthesised organics got in a fight. Former organics would still presumably have their same weak points, e.g. needing food (if that's gone then Synthesis has utterly screwed over every environmental balance in the galaxy, with heaven knows what consequences).

[Reorte]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

None of this precludes conflict between species or nations. Vast amounts of data and access to wildly advanced technology won't stop aggressive, highly organized species being what they are. They will still be greedy, stubborn, prideful and struggle for superiority.

Thing is when everyone can build devices that can destroy solar systems the value of a war goes out the window fast. It's a MAD setting. You're better off not goind down that road. Why start a war that could totally destroy your speices when you can just build a few more space stations or terraform another planet?

To make sure your enemies die too. That's why nuclear wars might just get avoided with two enemies who don't want to die (and even then look how close it came), chuck in some lunatics who couldn't care less what happens to them as long as they take out their opponents and we're doomed.

[KaiserShep]

The value of war never goes away completely, no matter what kind of destructive capabilities you have. What it does mean, however, is lower chances of resorting to the most powerful weapons in your arsenal, but it won't stop rival factions/nations/worlds from killing each other should diplomacy fail.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 novembre 2013 - 08:29 .