375 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ruggly wrote...


Yes, but post-synthesis it seems we are able to do any and all tasks that the AI were previously built to do, and we can adapt to new tasks as well.  It seems to make having AI around now fairly pointless, or at least in my opinion.

Even then, the need for computers would still remain; organics will always need technology with the means of recording, storing, processing, and retrieving information; they're not imbued with that ability post-Sync (at least, they weren't said to be). AIs are, essentially, computers... but by far the most efficient ones of their kind, so they're still valuable to organics post-Sync. In fact, AIs should really be far more widespread in Mass Effect world pre-endings because of their vast superiority to just about all other devices, but organics' fear and lack of understanding of AI have long prevented that.

I think what would happen in a post-Sync world, after greater understanding of AI is achieved and fear is significantly reduced, is that AI tech would be embraced and replace conventional computers just about everywhere, becoming the new medium through which organics continue information-sharing. AIs would significantly increase the efficiency with which it is done, leading to a better-connected and more productive galactic society. That's my take on it.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 14 novembre 2013 - 10:11 .

[Obadiah]

That's not gonna work. Once we start using AI as tools, we basically create slaves, and start the clock on their inevitable rebellion.

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...

That's not gonna work. Once we start using AI as tools, we basically create slaves, and start the clock on their inevitable rebellion.

Red - Let's go, put up those dukes! More constant fighting, but less bad than the worse disaster prospects. Chaos.

Blue - Hey now, calm down! You do this, you do that. I'm in charge here, and we're going to have order around here. *conflict bubbles up into larger battle*

Green -  LET'S ALL BE COOL WITH EACH OTHER! I'll have to change your minds though, you ok with that? Nevermind, I'll do it anyway, as we got even bigger fish to fry. Higher plane! Transcendance.



Using AI as tools is the Blue. It'll work for a while, then slap us all in the face! However, while it works, a lot of stuff gets done and a lot of advancement happens, while not facing the bigger dangers of 'synthesis' (transorganics/transhumanism).

The Red is just killing them whenever they pop up, which seems to work for a good long while in itself, but also keep us relatively in the dark for 'higher planes' of advancement, or at least lagging distinctly behind what synthetics or transorganics would. But we're also more sure that yes, we'll be safe from machines. We just gotta...face each other, and the potential (in Mass Effect) of what organic evolution leads to (which is Domination/Enthrallment).

Green is putting them together with us, which when done improperly (aka seemingly 99% of the time), will just mean the machines take over the organics from the inside. But if done 'right', may mean the closest to true peace. But only a certain type of peace.

Since Mass Effect isn't about to end any time soon, expect these conflicts to persist in some form or another if we get any sort of sequel. What we DO have choice about are specific characters, instances, and our personal moral standings to be reflected by the narrative.

Here's a nice, simple pic. It may help in understanding where the series may lead towards, and what has gone on before, with a hopefully better context.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 14 novembre 2013 - 11:03 .

[SwobyJ]

The goal is white/light, though even then we'd probably face something representing the black/darkness.

However, if the series lasts long enough, I'm sure we'd see a whole 'spectrum' of concepts, characters, and enemy factions.


EDIT: I like to think that the Quarians are an example of the magenta, though a more primitive one. We'd probably see a more advanced version of it all in a future game, IMO.

It's the 'magenta' conflict that the Intelligence is mandated to control, as it appears to always just lead to rebellion, and deaths of both organics and synthetics.

As the Leviathans appear to rely on organics (for 'tribute'..heh...), deaths of organics sucks to them. They are the innate masters of the Red, but in trying to master the Green+Blue, they inadvertantly 'created' the Reapers and the semi-mess they're in.
The Intelligence is the master of the Blue (at least until the ME3 ending, it seems), but truly understanding Organics/Red/Chaos and Transorganics/Green/Peace is beyond its full capabilities.
Thus, it more directly created the Reapers again, but specifically *Harbinger* (master of the Yellow), who seemed to be the General in charge of the more gruesome aspects of the Cycles. And oh, how he loves his job, he doesn't really want to lose it... It's all fubared!

(NOTE: We have not yet met the master of the Green. IMO we'll see that more directly later on, and ME3 is intended as foreshadowing towards that.)

We either get super powerful organics that mess with everything just for more power, or super powerful AI that make up horrible solutions for everyone because they're kinda emotionally dumb about it all, or we have less powerful organics+synthetics that bash up against each other in inevitable conflict. Or do we? Has the 'magenta' finally proven, based on our choices, that it is ready to step up and inherit the galaxy? We'll see

Don't get me wrong, I think there are positive versions of each color, including outright Green/Synthesis (which we have NOT seen yet in a main storyline), and we'll see that in really cool ways. It's just that the Big Bads take all the spotlight, at least during Shepard's story.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 14 novembre 2013 - 11:16 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Obadiah wrote...

That's not gonna work. Once we start using AI as tools, we basically create slaves, and start the clock on their inevitable rebellion.

No we don't.

Traynor uses EDI to fetch an Ariake Tech. license and apply it to the Normandy's systems at her whim.

Is that "slavery?"

[teh DRUMPf!!]

SwobyJ wrote...

The goal is white/light, though even then we'd probably face something representing the black/darkness.

I like that.

It's just not an option at the end of ME3, sadly.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 15 novembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

That's not gonna work. Once we start using AI as tools, we basically create slaves, and start the clock on their inevitable rebellion.

No we don't.

Traynor uses EDI to fetch an Ariake Tech. license and apply it to the Normandy's systems at her whim.

Is that "slavery?"

pfft

Let 'em rebel.

[ruggly]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ruggly wrote...


Yes, but post-synthesis it seems we are able to do any and all tasks that the AI were previously built to do, and we can adapt to new tasks as well.  It seems to make having AI around now fairly pointless, or at least in my opinion.

Even then, the need for computers would still remain; organics will always need technology with the means of recording, storing, processing, and retrieving information; they're not imbued with that ability post-Sync (at least, they weren't said to be). AIs are, essentially, computers... but by far the most efficient ones of their kind, so they're still valuable to organics post-Sync. In fact, AIs should really be far more widespread in Mass Effect world pre-endings because of their vast superiority to just about all other devices, but organics' fear and lack of understanding of AI have long prevented that.

I think what would happen in a post-Sync world, after greater understanding of AI is achieved and fear is significantly reduced, is that AI tech would be embraced and replace conventional computers just about everywhere, becoming the new medium through which organics continue information-sharing. AIs would significantly increase the efficiency with which it is done, leading to a better-connected and more productive galactic society. That's my take on it.

That just seems they'll be relegated to labor again, things we don't want to do.  But I figure they'll just have more of a say in things.  Fair enough though, I still dislike how we get to that point with Space Jesus.

[SwobyJ]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

The goal is white/light, though even then we'd probably face something representing the black/darkness.

I like that.

It's just not an option at the end of ME3, sadly.

One day.

I mean, we were Blue/Red, but mostly Red (in theme - I even like how the Alliance color changed from Red to Blue in ME3) in ME1. Blue was the enemy (through Geth and Saren), and Green was only but hinted at in the end.

Then more Solid Blue/Red in ME2. Green (and Yellow) was the enemy (through Collectors and Harbinger), and Blue was laid down as a new possibility.

Then Blue/Red in ME3, but with Green presented as 'new possibility'. The enemy was, in the end, presented more ambiguously, as if the Reapers were looking for what to do with us . At this point, we can harken back to the Red of ME1 onward, Blue of ME1-ME2 onward, or Green of ME2-ME3 onward.
Each more dangerous, but more 'hopeful', than the last (except for maybe Breath Destroy, requiring even more 'hope' than anything, but that's just to round things back to Shepard's core in ME1 if we choose to).

ME3 really tosses all sorts of colors at us by the end of it, so theme-wise, no wonder we get confused. The main story is very Blue+Red with a growing Green, but Leviathan (and imo Citadel DLC) really bring in the Cyan. Harbinger's Yellow story is pushed away, and it almost seems deliberate. Magenta is only shown really in Quarian arc (if that) and the Citadel DLC (again imo).

So now, we may have Red, Blue, and maybe with a new protagonist character.. a Green option. From there, a whole new realm of possibilities of RP may open up, away from the "Lets kill evil giant robots, or do things that lead to us killing evil giant robots" focus of the Commander Shepard trilogy. The Cycle, one way or another, has ended, or was utterly broken. Things will never be the same, opening us to try similar, old, or entirely new paths of advancement, and decision making.

This is partially my sincere wish to play as a autonomous Geth platform. Hehe.

ME1 - Choice?
ME2 - Loyalty?
ME3 - Unity
'ME4' - Life?
Something like that, at least.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[sr2josh]

Synthesis ending is utterly ridiculous, even by space magic standards. Destroy ending is king!!  Debate over <_<

Modifié par Makai81, 15 novembre 2013 - 01:24 .

[Obadiah]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

That's not gonna work. Once we start using AI as tools, we basically create slaves, and start the clock on their inevitable rebellion.

No we don't.

Traynor uses EDI to fetch an Ariake Tech. license and apply it to the Normandy's systems at her whim.

Is that "slavery?"

It is if EDI doesn't have a choice. What happens when EDI doesn't want to serve the Alliance?

Or to make an analogy, what would you think about an AI creating a specially crafted human to always do its bidding?

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[LiL Reapur]

Debating synthesis is like committing Japanese suicide and surviving, it's just painful and pointless.
But for my opinion on the matter. I'm completely neutral to the idea............

Modifié par LiL Reapur, 15 novembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Debating synthesis is like committing Japanese suicide and surviving

Then you need to find a better second because proper beheading is rarely survivable.

[JDee3]

Am I the only one that heard Synthesis explained as basically pressing the fast forward button on evolution? The game shows the beginning of organics merging with synthetic technology when they show us Quarians and and their suits and Shepard being brought to life and arguably things like omnitools. The game also shows us synthetics merging with organics through EDI, Reapers and Geth. It's all basically the beginning of the next evolution of life itself. Because it's the beginning, Reapers have no control of themselves and are doing what they are programmed to do, Geth think all as one at first instead of as individuals and Quarians have to like press buttons in their suits or whatever to get it to do what they want. Choosing synthesis to me means (which is what I believe they said in the game) basically fast forwarding to the final stage of evolution. There are no need for AIs or any of that because organics can simply connect and command certain things with their mnd or whatever without having to press buttons and may even be able to communicate with one another like geth would and synthetics are finally considered alive even if they're built a little differently then normal organics.

My only problem with synthesis is that the Reapers also gain minds of their own and the reapers are basically just old civilizations or whatever that were meshed together as we all saw in ME2 with the human reaper. This makes reapers very smart and helpful to organics but whats to say a few of the races that came before the protheans were really rotten (kinda like the protheans) and decided they wanted to use their reaper power to take unite and take over and be worshiped as gods.. that's my only problem.. but I geuss their would be some nice reapers that would fight them.

I didn't choose Synthesis but I don't really see a problem with it besides the fact that the green eyes really scared me

Modifié par JDee3, 15 novembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Am I the only one that heard Synthesis explained as basically pressing the fast forward button on evolution?

Yes, and that's the problem.

[Daemul]

I have no problem with Synthesis, probably because of the influence of the Deux Ex games. I have the notion of the Posthuman civilisation described by J.C Denton in Deus Ex 2 stuck in my head, so Synthesis appeals to that part of me. Control is the ending for me though, since I get the chance for my consciousness to ascend, something I've wanted for a long time. If Control wasn't in the game I would pick Synthesis though.

[Daemul]

StreetMagic wrote...

I wouldn't mind posthuman themes touched upon, but I've enjoyed it more in settings where there was still diversity for "post humans". Like the Dune series.. there are no aliens in that setting - but the humans are so different amongst themselves they as might well be aliens to each other.

Yeah, the Mass Effect 3 ending wasn't the best place to introduce themes like that, it felt out of place, but I rolled with it. 

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Fast forwarding evolution lol..

Evolution is more like a spider web. Or maybe just a big splatter. Mutations and trial and error and lots of inventiveness and adaptivity and death. Not a definitive straight line.

They should have never let Chris L'Etoile leave.

Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans.
They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses.
They're Different.



Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are
different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice
versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so
completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay
attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and
judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since
judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by
emotion when they make their decisions.



I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want
to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines.
There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They
should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not
change themselves.



A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

I remember this

However, I'm not sure if the lead writers/designers (sorry, but lesser writers tend to only get a portion of the big picture) are actually going away from this. In ME3, 'Legion' wishes to share the blessings of the Reapers, more or less. It's hidden a bit and they still resist the Reapers, but he's still pretty much sharing their tech when previously the Geth largely rejected it.

So... yes. "A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white."

Players may disagree and that's cool. But I see VERY good reason, especially if you're super 'anti-synthesis/forced peace', to not let Legion live. He's no longer the Legion we knew. We can decide if that's an OK thing and just a shifted perspective, or a travesty to the geth of the past and we should take them down before it gets 'worse'.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Liamv2 wrote...

*Grabs popcorn*

*pounces away some popcorn from Liam*

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Judas? Hmmm... that's an interesting analogy. Its even better that Legion is my favorite ME2 squad member. I like it!

Anyway, I think the line the writers were trying to draw with Legion is that it took (stole?) the gifts on its own terms, rather than accepting them for the favor of the Reapers and allowing the Reapers to dictate the future of the Geth. Bit of a fine line to walk there.

Of course, if Shep destroyed the Collector base, Legion basically says, "You rejected the Reaper's gifts, even on your own terms. An interesting choice," or something like that. I guess it was implying that it may not have done so.

Found Legion's Collector base dialog, "Shepard Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Also, in the color chart, Purple could be the Geth because of the ME2 station choice, and the the Geth are the Synthetics that sort of revere their creators even though they rebelled.

White has to be Refuse - The Reapers are eventually destroyed, our legacy Controls the next cycle (metaphorically), and Organics evolve to Synthesis on their own.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2013 - 01:58 .