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[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I still support zapping all the cuttlefish and toasters and then just instituting a "Anyone who builds new toasters or cuttlefish will be nuked from orbit." policy.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 15 novembre 2013 - 01:52 .

[Xilizhra]

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

Survival is something that matters to many people.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

Survival is something that matters to many people.

People yes.

Toasters? Not so much.

[Xilizhra]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

Survival is something that matters to many people.

People yes.

Toasters? Not so much.

Well, it certainly seems that survival mattered to the geth.

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Judas? Hmmm... that's an interesting analogy. Its even better that Legion is my favorite ME2 squad member. I like it!

Anyway, I think the line the writers were trying to draw with Legion is that it took (stole?) the gifts on its own terms, rather than accepting them for the favor of the Reapers and allowing the Reapers to dictate the future of the Geth. Bit of a fine line to walk there.

Of course, if Shep destroyed the Collector base, Legion basically says, "You rejected the Reaper's gifts, even on your own terms. An interesting choice," or something like that. I guess it was implying that it may not have done so.

Found Legion's Collector base dialog, "Shepard Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Legion is a top tier character to me, so yeah, I'm totally not bashing him with my speculations so you know If I could play as him, I would.

And yes, a fineee line. The Geth WERE changed by it. Period. To the core. They are Geth 2.0 now. And that brings both possibilities and danger. Like many choices of ME3 behind the scenes imo. It makes me very much wonder about some form of save import, regardless of what Bioware seems to overtly indicate (this is the same company with a CM that denies stuff like Omega DLC, so whatever).

(Ugh, I stil want the Dyson Sphere)


And yes as well, the Geth are more Control-y oriented, and that comes along with a more synthetic mentality, shown over and over. When Synthetics control, they do so quickly (reminder-Reapers are ultimately biosynthetic failbots, not pure synthetic) and they overwrite instead of push.

When Organics evolve to control, they tend to do so temporarily, OR with giving a significant amount of positive 'benefit'/caretaking. They don't remove a person's thoughts (free *will*), but the higher up they get, the more they evolve into stretching the bounds of organic domination/hypnosis/possession onto others (Asari, Prothian, Rachni, Thorian, Leviathan). Again though, it is almost always not with the intent to overwrite, but to 'assume control'. Harbinger, as a Leviathan Reaper, simply works to perfect the ability, mixing it with nanide indoctrination and his failure at synthesis (Collectors).

Anyway... Thus, Geth are obviously at least more tempted to take control of things that could be assets. (Lesser) Organics, those not 'tainted' by technological integration and/or close relationship, are on the other hand more dedicated to destroying things that appear dangerous, regardless of asset value. We always like to build though


This is all headcanony but based on my knowledge so far.



The other side of the Geth becoming more 'human' (to a point), is that they are now more open to Destruction than before. As soon as they recieved their new code, they announced their joining the war for a reason. They were literally changed to not just be up for helping Shepard, but to have 'no compromise with the Old Machines' any more. However, I believe that is cut dialogue, so Bioware may instead want US to believe what we want about the Geth. Would they want Control of the Reapers? Maybe, since they're Synthetic. Would they want Synthesis with the Reapers? Maybe, since they did something kinda similar and seem to think it was a good thing. Would they want Destruction of the Reapers at the cost of themselves? Possibly, because they now gained their 'souls' (in a manner of speaking, at least) and may have learned that fighting for survival instead of compromising to be spared, may be preferable.

It's really up to the player to really decide. Same with how we have to imagine the pros and cons of Krogan (but that scenario is mostly spelled out to us, not left ambiguous like the Geth bit, or nearly unknown like the Synthesis bit).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...


Well, it certainly seems that survival mattered to the geth.

Eh I really didn't pay much attention after the whole "Yeah they sided with the Reapers" bomb dropped.

Then you kill the toasters and call it a job well done.

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...
Also, in the color chart, Purple could be the Geth because of the ME2 station choice, and the the Geth are the Synthetics that sort of revere their creators even though they rebelled.

White has to be Refuse - The Reapers are eventually destroyed, our legacy Controls the next cycle (metaphorically), and Organics evolve to Synthesis on their own.

Not quite imo. I think the Geth are related to Purple/Magenta, yes, but they're not the only part of it, and only in ME3. That link I PMed you will have a (probably a bit confusing) outline and speculative description.

I also think we have not touched White yet. Some of this stuff is only touched upon in ME3, but I believe will become more overt in the next game. Alliance Commander Shepard is mostly a RedVSBlue character (mostly..), and leaving him will free things up more.

[AlexMBrennan]

Well, it certainly seems that survival mattered to the geth.

Except that the geth would have to be tremendously shortsighted to think that their "deal" with the Reapers would allow them to survive - remember the bit about their mission being, ultimately, to prevent the destruction of all life in the galaxy via synthetics? Did the geth really believe that the Reapers would let them go in case they won?

No, of course not - they just picked the option that would result in the most quarian geths (after taking care of their planet for centuries) out of spite. Yay consistent writing and/or idiot ball dependency.

[Daemul]

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Judas? Hmmm... that's an interesting analogy. Its even better that Legion is my favorite ME2 squad member. I like it!

Anyway, I think the line the writers were trying to draw with Legion is that it took (stole?) the gifts on its own terms, rather than accepting them for the favor of the Reapers and allowing the Reapers to dictate the future of the Geth. Bit of a fine line to walk there.

Of course, if Shep destroyed the Collector base, Legion basically says, "You rejected the Reaper's gifts, even on your own terms. An interesting choice," or something like that. I guess it was implying that it may not have done so.

Found Legion's Collector base dialog, "Shepard Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Too bad this view wasn't shared by Hackett and Shepard after Horizon in ME3. Supposedly the data which would allow the Allied Forces to control Reaper Husks and gain a massive advantage over the Reapers was so tainted that it couldn't be used, because you know, ethics. :innocent:

[Xilizhra]

Except that the geth would have to be tremendously shortsighted to think that their "deal" with the Reapers would allow them to survive

Well, it did. So apparently not.

[SwobyJ]

Daemul wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Judas? Hmmm... that's an interesting analogy. Its even better that Legion is my favorite ME2 squad member. I like it!

Anyway, I think the line the writers were trying to draw with Legion is that it took (stole?) the gifts on its own terms, rather than accepting them for the favor of the Reapers and allowing the Reapers to dictate the future of the Geth. Bit of a fine line to walk there.

Of course, if Shep destroyed the Collector base, Legion basically says, "You rejected the Reaper's gifts, even on your own terms. An interesting choice," or something like that. I guess it was implying that it may not have done so.

Found Legion's Collector base dialog, "Shepard Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Too bad this view wasn't shared by Hackett and Shepard after Horizon in ME3. Supposedly the data which would allow the Allied Forces to control Reaper Husks and gain a massive advantage over the Reapers was so tainted that it couldn't be used, because you know, ethics. :innocent:

Reaper tech is damn scary yo.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 02:18 .

[SwobyJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that the geth would have to be tremendously shortsighted to think that their "deal" with the Reapers would allow them to survive

Well, it did. So apparently not.

They were to be used in the Reaping process just as they were with Saren.

It's just, you know, as fellow 'synthetic-ish' beings, Reapers just interface with the Geth and give them the terms or proposals, and take whoever says yes. They speak closer to the same wavelength.

Reapers don't really think organics will even listen, thus indoctrination. In the end, it appears all are 'killed' anyway. The Reapers I guess can't risk synthetics stretching past the Cycle bounds.

(This game has fewer plotholes and story issues of this nature once taken from a certain POV. )

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 02:22 .

[Daemul]

SwobyJ wrote...

Daemul wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The way I see Legion now is the Judas of my 12 ME2 Disciples (and Shepard is Space Jesus, of course). Without L'Etoile, he completey sold out.

I consider him the Judas too, in fact. But still a complicated relationship worthy of it. His actions push Shepard, potentially, to explore Synthesis. It goes as intended. His 'betrayal' (one way or another) only fuels the final sacrifice... destiny.
"Finish your war, we will be waiting."

Judas? Hmmm... that's an interesting analogy. Its even better that Legion is my favorite ME2 squad member. I like it!

Anyway, I think the line the writers were trying to draw with Legion is that it took (stole?) the gifts on its own terms, rather than accepting them for the favor of the Reapers and allowing the Reapers to dictate the future of the Geth. Bit of a fine line to walk there.

Of course, if Shep destroyed the Collector base, Legion basically says, "You rejected the Reaper's gifts, even on your own terms. An interesting choice," or something like that. I guess it was implying that it may not have done so.

Found Legion's Collector base dialog, "Shepard Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Too bad this view wasn't shared by Hackett and Shepard after Horizon in ME3. Supposedly the data which would allow the Allied Forces to control Reaper Husks and gain a massive advantage over the Reapers was so tainted that it couldn't be used, because you know, ethics. :innocent:

Reaper tech is damn scary yo.

I still want to know what Hackett and Shepard were smoking when they came to that moronic decision of their''s. 

Oh my god, it can only be one thing. INDOCTIRNATION! It's one hell of a drug. 

[SwobyJ]

Any other known attempt to use Reaper tech - as in, Indoc tech - lead to some sort of compromising of human integrity.

Obviously we're allowed to disagree on that truly happening, but from Hackett's POV, that's what's happening. Once we use Husks as shock troops, we're literally throwing human corpses into the grinder, and screw burials. It could get out of hand fast.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

SwobyJ wrote...

Any other known attempt to use Reaper tech - as in, Indoc tech - lead to some sort of compromising of human integrity.

Obviously we're allowed to disagree on that truly happening, but from Hackett's POV, that's what's happening. Once we use Husks as shock troops, we're literally throwing human corpses into the grinder, and screw burials. It could get out of hand fast.

Well... the husks are already being used as shock troops so it is not like the bodies are being EXTRA desecrated.

They really should have instituted a "Burn upon death" policy on every Reaper occupied world from the start, would have saved a lot of trouble for everyone.

[Daemul]

SwobyJ wrote...

Any other known attempt to use Reaper tech - as in, Indoc tech - lead to some sort of compromising of human integrity.

Obviously we're allowed to disagree on that truly happening, but from Hackett's POV, that's what's happening. Once we use Husks as shock troops, we're literally throwing human corpses into the grinder, and screw burials. It could get out of hand fast.

Tbh, I don't mind Hackett not wanting to turn people into husks, like you said, it could turn ugly fast. What I don't like is not wanting to turn the husks, which were turned by the Reapers, against their previous masters. The Husks are the Reaper ground forces and cutting off their connection to the Reapers would be a massive help. 

It is already too late for those people sadly, unless there's a way to reverse the process, they might as well be of some use. 

[GiarcYekrub]

Synthesis in my favorite ending, It the ending where everyone wins and I like to think that Shepard got woven into the fabric of every living thing

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Obadiah wrote...

It is if EDI doesn't have a choice. What happens when EDI doesn't want to serve the Alliance?

Or to make an analogy, what would you think about an AI creating a specially crafted human to always do its bidding?

I was working with the assumption that YES, the AI at hand would agree to this role.

If there's some conflict, you cross that bridge when you get there, but to date we have seen literally seen 0 examples of a free-willed AI wanting to defect. EDI wanted out of Cerberus because they'd shackle her, whereas the Alliance crew offered her the same freedoms she was granted at the end of ME2. The geth were targeted by the quarians preemptively for fear that they'd rebel, though they never actually did, and after reaching true-AI status, the first thing they did was go back to serving the quarians. Hell, even the Catalyst continued doing his masters' work after he wiped them off the face of the galaxy(!) over millions and millions of years...

Too many people are looking at this through organics' eyes. I've seen it at least four times now ITT. Synthetics may be alive, and are therein entitled to certain rights as living beings, but not all rights are interchangeable. One could very well make the case that EDI is a slave on the Normandy. Often slaves are "brainwashed" into thinking they must serve their masters, so her willingness to serve the ship's crew could also be disregarded as a slave's indoctrination. However, that would be ridiculous, and "freeing" her would accomplish nothing.

Again, this Legion quote bears repeating: "Treating every species like one's own is racist, even benign anthropomorphism."

[Obadiah]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthesis in my favorite ending, It the ending where everyone wins and I like to think that Shepard got woven into the fabric of every living thing

The idea that Shepard exists in everything sort of caps a mythical recounting of Mass Effect, what with its visons, and ressurrection, and belief.

Only thing missing is a constellation.

[Obadiah]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
...
If there's some conflict, you cross that bridge when you get there, but to date we have seen literally seen 0 examples of a free-willed AI wanting to defect.
...

Citadel AI that rebelled against its master to try to free itself in ME1.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
...
Synthetics may be alive, and are therein entitled to certain rights as living beings, but not all rights are interchangeable. One could very well make the case that EDI is a slave on the Normandy. Often slaves are "brainwashed" into thinking they must serve their masters, so her willingness to serve the ship's crew could also be disregarded as a slave's indoctrination. However, that would be ridiculous, and "freeing"her would accomplish nothing.

Again, this Legion quote bears repeating: "Treating every species like one's own is racist, even benign
anthropomorphism."

Yeah, but treating a race like slaves is still slavery. Assuming that another sentient species will always want to serve is... somewhat wishfull.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Obadiah wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthesis in my favorite ending, It the ending where everyone wins and I like to think that Shepard got woven into the fabric of every living thing

The idea that Shepard exists in everything sort of caps a mythical recounting of Mass Effect, what with its visons, and ressurrection, and belief.

Only thing missing is a constellation.

Well I like that they left it ambigous so each player can infer their own personal ending based on their own values

[GiarcYekrub]

A curve ball is I'm sure there is a bending the 4th wall dialog bit somewhere on the Normandy or the Citadel where they discuss that everyone could be a simulation running on a computer, if that were true enacting apparent synthesis would be achievable by altering the simulation

[Linkenski]

 One thing in particular that I disliked about the themes surrounding synthetics in ME3 was the whole bit about EDI and her becoming "human", kinda like a pinnochio arc (ew!)

That former writer Chris I'Etoile said this in a comment some time ago

Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different.
Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.
I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.
A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

And it just felt like the team completely shat on this with Legion's arc, and then with the Synthesis ending, especially after the EC.

Modifié par Linkenski, 15 novembre 2013 - 04:23 .

[Draguno]

I'll just say: "organic energy"
That alone makes me shudder.

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

However, I believe that is cut dialogue

No, it's still there if you let the Quarians die.