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[Tinu]

Legion: "Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara, Sovereign said this itself. "

By chosing synthesis, you force every organic and non-organic species to develop a certain way. It's not how life was meant to be. It isn't evolution, it's ending the evolution.

[SwobyJ]

Daemul wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Any other known attempt to use Reaper tech - as in, Indoc tech - lead to some sort of compromising of human integrity.

Obviously we're allowed to disagree on that truly happening, but from Hackett's POV, that's what's happening. Once we use Husks as shock troops, we're literally throwing human corpses into the grinder, and screw burials. It could get out of hand fast.

Tbh, I don't mind Hackett not wanting to turn people into husks, like you said, it could turn ugly fast. What I don't like is not wanting to turn the husks, which were turned by the Reapers, against their previous masters. The Husks are the Reaper ground forces and cutting off their connection to the Reapers would be a massive help. 

It is already too late for those people sadly, unless there's a way to reverse the process, they might as well be of some use. 

I guess that's one way you may disagree with Destroy-type mentality then. There are more layers to this story than initiall thought, maybe. lol

I'm all over, myself. I think I'm seeing a broader view and assistance of this tech, but at the same time I think I recognize just how badly it would backfire by now.

[JDee3]

TinuHawke wrote...

Legion: "Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara, Sovereign said this itself. "

By chosing synthesis, you force every organic and non-organic species to develop a certain way. It's not how life was meant to be. It isn't evolution, it's ending the evolution.

Basically what I was trying to say before I think. Shepard choosing Synthesis is one of the many paths that lead to the same end and is arguably the fastest one. It skips all the awkward destructive (almost teenage hormonal) problems the evolution of every being would've gone through and was already going through. Organics and synthetics step into the same shoes and finally understand each other and can live and work together.

Only thing with my playthrough is that I think the awkward lets destroy each other phase was over when I united the geth and Quarians. I'm not sure I feel ok with the Reapers having minds of their own because they're so powerful that if a few reapers and the civilizations they used to create themselves were naturally bad then things could really go to hell.. even though there would be some reapers that are good and fight them off.. I just don't want war. I went with control with my full paragon Shep to basically rewrite the reapers like I rewrote the Geth in Legion's loyalty mission.. although part of me thought of destroying them BUT they aren't as powerful as reapers so I didn't 

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

 One thing in particular that I disliked about the themes surrounding synthetics in ME3 was the whole bit about EDI and her becoming "human", kinda like a pinnochio arc (ew!)

That former writer Chris I'Etoile said this in a comment some time ago

Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different.
Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.
I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.
A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

And it just felt like the team completely shat on this with Legion's arc, and then with the Synthesis ending, especially after the EC.

Yeah. But. ..

Hey, I'm with you.

It's just, try to look at Synthesis-type (Or just 'Green') advancements as 'trans'..things. Transcendance. Transsubstantiation. Transhumanism. Transsynthetic. New life. One that is more innately peaceful, than conflicting or controlling of others.

Anything that heads towards it becomes something else. On Rannoch (especially Full Peace), you're no longer the Geth, but instead you are 'Geth 2.0' (find a better fan name for it, haha).
In hypothetical Synthesis, you're no longer Asari, but 'Asari 2.0'.
In Genophage Cure (well at least full Cure with Wrex and Eve) You're no longer the warlike Krogan or the


So here's where the hard decisions have to be made.

-If you don't want to change the culture of the Krogan, keep away from the cure (this one is pretty easy to ignore, since we're not altering minds or anything)

-If you don't want to accept versions (GethVI/Legion, Geth/Peace) of a transsynthetic Geth, no longer the Geth of before, you will HAVE TO DESTROY THEM. That's the harsh choice that imo is hidden, then made overt in a different and more dangerous form with the Reapers

-If you don't want to accept versions of transsynthetic (instead of failed attempts of it) Reapers, no longer the Reapers of before (well shucks, big deal), you will HAVE TO CONTROL OR DESTROY THEM OR WALK AWAY TO DIE. Since we don't have emotional attachment to the Reapers in ME3 really, they put Geth (if Geth/Peace) or at least Legion and any possible other AI synthetics in the crosshairs.


If you think they abandoned Legion's ME2 arc, I may disagree. In fact, they only made it more dramatic, but more in the subtext.


If you think the Geth have changed into something they shouldn't have, and never would have wanted to be otherwise....
Then Destroy them. Do it. Their basis may be rebuilt and hopefully brought to the status they will be pre-Rannoch. At the cost of their 'older lives'. That's the cost, so choose wisely.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 09:11 .

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

However, I believe that is cut dialogue

No, it's still there if you let the Quarians die.

Neat!

[SwobyJ]

TinuHawke wrote...

Legion: "Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara, Sovereign said this itself. "

By chosing synthesis, you force every organic and non-organic species to develop a certain way. It's not how life was meant to be. It isn't evolution, it's ending the evolution.

It is a form of evolution. It is at least hinted that people would learn to move beyond mortality and the bounds of this universe in some way. As long as there is a limitation, we'll try to supass it.

But it is only ONE form of evolution, and it pretty much disregards any other. It is the SINGLE path, no variations, no success/fail, just IT. It is the New Age, predestinied and with no deviation. All must Ascend.

So in choosing what some may view as the 'ideal' path, it is also the least ideal in at LEAST one way - blinding to any other path. Organic evolution? Forget that, as we're moving beyond fleshy bodies. Synthetic evolution? Forget that, we still have emotions and embrace the new flesh. This is something else entirely, that as far as we know in Mass Effect, failed in some way every other time it was attempted. (I view the Reapers, Cycles, and Collectors and just another failure of it)

So yeah, Bioware is just asking your opinion on transhumanism at its most dangerous and aspirational at the same time. Do you think Shepard is capable of it and succeeding? Do you think he was only tricked into it and failing? Do you think it even SHOULD be done by Shepard's hand, enforcing the choice on everyone?

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 09:17 .

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

There really isn't much to talk about Synthesis in and of itself. It's really about EDI, and whether you care enough to big sister/big brother to her/it and care if EDI is "alive" or not. It's an emotional decision. Not an intellectual one. There's nothing more to it, except love or indifference.

I didn't choose Synthesis initially on EDI at all. I only avoided Destroy on my first playthrough because of her, and because the designers put Synthesis right in front of me (psychology f2w..).

When it came to Control vs. Synthesis, EDI was not on my mind.


But I'd still agree that Synthesis is highly emotional, but really not as much as Destroy. Synthesis is really that middle ground in people I know IRL. Those who pick it were emotional about the series (like me), but also not as incredibly and deeply tied to the *characters* as others (who tended to pick Control or Destroy).

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...


I didn't choose Synthesis initially on EDI at all. I only avoided Destroy on my first playthrough because of her, and because the designers put Synthesis right in front of me (psychology f2w..).

To me, it's Bioware's attempt at indoctrination (I'm not talking about IT. Just emotional/psychological manipulation). They manuever things and EDI in such a way that can weaken and distract from what the other themes in the game are. By the end, you're a bit weak in the knees and you got a big white light that'll make it all better.

I wonder what the results were though. What percentage actually took the bait.

You know I think it's both.

But I also think there's a purpose to it.
We first meet Krogan, they're brutes, forget about em.
We first encounter Rachni, they've overtaken a facility, put them down.
We first face Geth, they're major enemies for a whole game and they nearly exterminated their creators.

The Reapers wouldn't even attempt Indoctrination if they were not concerned with what we thought to some extent. They'd just kill us, then mop up everything else.

Or maybe I'm INDOCTRINATED.

On principle, my MainShep is Destroy. How dare they infiltrate my mind..


On the Bioware side of things, of course they're manipulating us. It's damn fun. Social psychology is the best.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[SwobyJ]

Chaos also means that hypothetically, everyone we know and love would have never existed a while ago.

Rachni not stopped by uplifted Krogan? Cycle would be gone.

Krogan not stopped by Genophage? Cycle would be dominated by them.

Geth not killed off? They could turn on us in a terrible way, based on history of them nearly exterminating the Quarians (even if much of it can be pinned on the Quarians' lack of understanding)

All Bioware does is offer moral choices. I go Order sometimes, Chaos in others, and Transcendence in a few offered to me. At this point, I can't harshly judge anyone for anything in Mass Effect in itself.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 09:44 .

[SwobyJ]

We don't know the situation enough.

If it wanted to allow organic autonomy (and I think it did), then the lesser species very well may have went on a Quarian path, over and over, just to keep getting killed by their creations.

Remember that Leviathans tend to just opt for a simpler form of Direct Control. Otherwise, they seem to want organics to be free to make their own choices, not restricted or indoctrinated into doing certain ones.

Eventually, they made they own pure AI/Intelligence.

To help organics.

And its version of Help was to kill its creator and kill everyone else to enter Reapers.

So the fault is to make an AI to preserve organic life? If so, interesting.

The Cycle goes and goes...


The solution? Establishing a connection, so Synthetics understand organics enough to know not to kill them all off or restrain the free will of, and Organics stop immediately viewing their creations as only tools to be shut down or taken control of.

But is THAT solution the right one?

Goes and goes.. The big theme? Free will and CHOICE.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 09:56 .

[Iakus]

TinuHawke wrote...

Legion: "Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara, Sovereign said this itself. "

By chosing synthesis, you force every organic and non-organic species to develop a certain way. It's not how life was meant to be. It isn't evolution, it's ending the evolution.

This
This
This
This
This
This!

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

So the fault is to make an AI to preserve organic life? If so, interesting.

I'd say yes. It's unable to see the difference between an organic mind in an organic body and an organic mind "saved" in a Reaper. It's just a different kind of software. This goes back to something Edi says to Donnelly after the debate with Adams, Are we more than our thoughts? It doesn't think so...

It's really creepy how little things Edi and Legion say make its behavior understandable. Far from acceptable but you can connect the dots and make sense of its thought process.

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

So the fault is to make an AI to preserve organic life? If so, interesting.

I'd say yes. It's unable to see the difference between an organic mind in an organic body and an organic mind "saved" in a Reaper. It's just a different kind of software. This goes back to something Edi says to Donnelly after the debate with Adams, Are we more than our thoughts? It doesn't think so...

It's really creepy how little things Edi and Legion say make its behavior understandable. Far from acceptable but you can connect the dots and make sense of its thought process.

Yep I don't disagree. I was posing the question to spark some thoughts on that.

But if that's that case, what you say, then organic evolution itself, or at least the paths we've seen (Prothian? Thorian? Leviathan?) is a danger to lesser species. Eventually, something very damn powerful emerges and seeks control over ALL, 'for their own good'.

Evolution --> Apex Predator (at last in Mass Effect 'rules' so far) --> Godlike Beliefs --> 'Benevolence' --> seeking out a better 'system' through technology without understanding

So is the Cosmic Imperitive a good or bad thing? More cyclical thinking happens in looking for that answer in this story.


But yes, imo this makes sense of the Catalyst's line that goes like "now that we know (synthesis) is possible, it is inevitable".

It's our choice though, to attempt that through Reaper fasttrack means. Oh sorry - Leviathan tech. Oh sorry - the 'Crucible'.

Obviously the 'Reaper God' is going to want Reapers to persist, in whatever capacity.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 10:53 .

[Eryri]

Draguno wrote...

I'll just say: "organic energy"
That alone makes me shudder.

Urgh, don't remind me. Shepard might as well have defeated the Reapers through the awesome power of homeopathy and crystal healing.

[SwobyJ]

Eryri wrote...

Draguno wrote...

I'll just say: "organic energy"
That alone makes me shudder.

Urgh, don't remind me. Shepard might as well have defeated the Reapers through the awesome power of homeopathy and crystal healing.

Well.. I'll just say again that my IT-ish view is that Shepard really only created a new form of Reaper with his choice inside its virtual mind (don't worry, it is mixed with memory and what is actually going on), and our final choice only determined what goal it will have (kill other dangerous synthetics, control the galaxy's progression, peace with all) or be oriented towards in a future game.

It at least makes Synthesis more bearable. As in - it's space magic because it literally is space magic that would otherwise never happen in that way. 1+1=3

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 11:12 .

[Eryri]

SwobyJ wrote...


Well.. I'll just say again that my IT-ish view is that Shepard really only created a new form of Reaper with his choice inside its virtual mind (don't worry, it is mixed with memory and what is actually going on), and our final choice only determined what goal it will have (kill other dangerous synthetics, control the galaxy's progression, peace with all) or be oriented towards in a future game.

It at least makes Synthesis more bearable. As in - it's space magic because it literally is space magic that would otherwise never happen in that way. 1+1=3

That's not bad actually. Anything that prevents Synthesis from actually taking place in the "reality" of the ME universe is OK by me.

[SwobyJ]

People would still complain because their journey was at least kinda virtual. Mah choices!!!

EDIT: but really, this view of Synthesis makes it much more bearable to me, and I'd love to interact or even work with a 'Reaper' that had the ideals of Shepard-Synthesis. As long as I get to talk to Synthesis EDI, the Mathemagician

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 novembre 2013 - 11:23 .

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

But if that's that case, what you say, then organic evolution itself, or at least the paths we've seen (Prothian? Thorian? Leviathan?) is a danger to lesser species. Eventually, something very damn powerful emerges and seeks control over ALL, 'for their own good'.

A little ironic isn't it? The older races, organic or synthetic, always poison the developement of the younger ones. You see this in practically every scifi franchise.

Evolution --> Apex Predator (at last in Mass Effect 'rules' so far) --> Godlike Beliefs --> 'Benevolence' --> seeking out a better 'system' through technology without understanding

So is the Cosmic Imperitive a good or bad thing? More cyclical thinking happens in looking for that answer in this story.

Well this goes into what it was trying to do and why it failed. It's trying to "fix" errors in organics. Remember when Legion said the fear of the unknown was a hardware error? Yeah... Sorry Legion, that isn't an error. It has a very important purpose. Thinking it's an error leads to things like trying to fix it. And you can't force a synthetic view of life on organics or vice versa. You can achieve balance with time and effort.

[SwobyJ]

Well, the Cycle served its purpose then!

/indoctrinated lol

Modifié par SwobyJ, 16 novembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[Excella Gionne]

Oh, Jebus! Here goes another Synthesis Debate Thread... Synthesis isn't all that bad...