164 réponses à ce sujet

[Magehand2278]

 BW correct me if I am wrong but in the DA franchise, have
you ever created a truly evil protagonist?  I was just in the thread where the host was
asking for you to kill NPC, whether you should or should not, agree or disagree
should be directed and answered in that thread. But the fact that it wasn’t even
an option makes me wonder if there was ever an opportunity for an evil
protagonist to begin with. I know you could make some questionable choices and
even an option to have the “evil guy” dialogue but none of that makes you truly
evil or even a bad guy. It just makes you an individual with an alternative
point of view.

I am also concerned that the only time the player gets to
confirm whether he/she is good or bad, is not through the quests he/she goes on
but the dialogue option. Which isn’t a very good indicator if you ask me
because at in DA2, regardless of which dialogue option you choose you ended up
with the same result and I can’t remember if it was the same for DAO (plus admittedly
I never choose the evil dialogue option in that game).

The objective of this thread is to firstly confirm my hypothesis
that the main character in the DA franchise was never given the option to be truly
evil guy and if you’ll agree with me on that,  find out if you’ll would
like that option in the next game, if that is even a possibility at this late
stage of development. 

[Estelindis]

It really depends on what you think evil is. In my opinion, the DA series has given the PC plenty of opportunity to commit really evil acts. However, there are enough ambiguous circumstances to enable players to argue that what they did was pragmatic, intended to achieve a greater good. In my opinion, this illustrates very well an important dynamic of evil, that few people consider it to be evil when actually doing it.

Now, you didn't ask if the games gave the protagonist the opportunity to do evil, but whether he or she can be evil. Assuming that someone can be evil at all, I think that it would require her or him to do more evil than good and to have an overall aim that is evil. I do not think that Bioware has enabled this. I am not sure that they should.

[JCAP]

Saying that DA didn't give you oportunities to be evil is the same saying the Vodka is like water.

[Plaintiff]

JCAP wrote...

Saying that DA didn't give you oportunities to be evil is the same saying the Vodka is like water.

Not really. The former statement is a matter of subjective opinion, the latter is just outright untrue.

[Medhia Nox]

You wouldn't know if you were playing a villain - if you were the villain.

If Bioware designs a game where your role is as the "big bad" - then they have failed at presenting evil in any but the most basic forms.

[Schneidend]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You wouldn't know if you were playing a villain - if you were the villain.

If Bioware designs a game where your role is as the "big bad" - then they have failed at presenting evil in any but the most basic forms.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bioware make an anti-hero game in the same vein as Overlord or Dungeon Keeper. Could be mighty interesting.

[pdusen]

As someone who played all of the KOTOR, DA and ME series games--the only game where I felt like I was allowed to be really evil was KOTOR1. The worst you can do with the other ones is just be a huge jerk and make some morally ambiguous decisions.

Frankly, I miss KOTOR1's style of evil.

Modifié par pdusen, 11 novembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Schneidend: Neither would I, but those are notably camp. They aren't trying to be deep nuanced stories about the nature of evil and evil people... which is TOTALLY fine in my opinion.

I loved Dungeon Keeper and it's mocking attitude toward popular fantasy.

[dragonflight288]

I think the closest thing Bioware has done recently to make a true villain to play as was Jade Empire (written by Gaider and Laidlaw, ) if you choose to follow the path of the closed fist.

To date, that is the only game that has made me feel truly dirty and like scum after beating it on the Closed Fist ending.

[Estelindis]

People raise good points in referring to KotOR and Jade Empire. I admit that I was thinking of more recent games, particularly Dragon Age, when I said that I don't think that Bioware has allowed the protagonist to be truly evil. The evil endings of KotOR and Jade Empire were fairly horrifying. It's hard for me to see a greater good that someone might claim to justify such evil.

[Medhia Nox]

@Estelindis: Which might suggest that your moral compass leans toward a more compassionate, temperate world view.

I'd say it's a good thing that you can't justify evils under a greater good.

[Maria Caliban]

Plaintiff wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Saying that DA didn't give you oportunities to be evil is the same saying the Vodka is like water.

Not really. The former statement is a matter of subjective opinion, the latter is just outright untrue.

Vodka is like water. They're both clear fluids you can drink. The word vodka means 'water,' and water is its primary component.

Medhia Nox wrote...

You wouldn't know if you were playing a villain - if you were the villain.

I, the player, can typically identify what role my character is playing, even if the PC doesn't see themselves as being a villain or hero.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[leaguer of one]

Morality is based on intent. The difference with killing someone for the right reason and kill someone for the wrong reason is in one you were reluctant to do it but had to do it and you'll avoid doing something like that as much as possible in the future. While when you kill for the wrong reason you're going out of you way to do it because you enjoy it. It not that you can't be evil, it's that the event on have is very morally grey.

[Han Shot First]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You wouldn't know if you were playing a villain - if you were the villain.

Pretty much.

Most of history's villains saw themselves as heroic. In Hitler's mind, he was the protagonist.

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think the closest thing Bioware has done recently to make a true villain to play as was Jade Empire (written by Gaider and Laidlaw, ) if you choose to follow the path of the closed fist.

To date, that is the only game that has made me feel truly dirty and like scum after beating it on the Closed Fist ending.

Close fist is not totally evil. There two levels of it. One of the tyrant and one of the servivalist. Open palm also has a tyrant path as well.

[leaguer of one]

Estelindis wrote...

People raise good points in referring to KotOR and Jade Empire. I admit that I was thinking of more recent games, particularly Dragon Age, when I said that I don't think that Bioware has allowed the protagonist to be truly evil. The evil endings of KotOR and Jade Empire were fairly horrifying. It's hard for me to see a greater good that someone might claim to justify such evil.

It not that the protagonist can't be truely evil. It's you don't have just plain evil for evil sake choices. All choice are morally grey. It's what you intend that make you actions evil.

[Icy Magebane]

As far as I can tell, everything in DA has some kind of justification so that it can be looked at both ways... both KOTOR games and Jade Empire made me feel that I was actually a villain who just needed to beat down lesser villains to take control. There was nothing good about what I did or why I was doing it, and most of those decisions/actions had only the flimsiest of justification, if I even tried to justify them at all. On the other hand, you are fully capable of playing DA games with an evil mindset, from the perspective of someone who does not attempt to justify anything, and thus, is truly evil.  Also, I think that because of the Jedi/Sith philosophical dichotomy, there was far less wiggle room... one side was clearly benevolent, the other clearly malevolent, and their actions in game supported this.

So I think there's enough flexibility in Bioware games to cater to all mindsets. As long as you think you're being evil, you are, even if somebody else can commit this same action but justify it as "for the greater good."

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

The Old Republic lets you play all sorts of villains.

[Estelindis]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Estelindis: Which might suggest that your moral compass leans toward a more compassionate, temperate world view.

I'd say it's a good thing that you can't justify evils under a greater good.

Thank you!  Perhaps you're right.  I do try to approach moral problems with a clear focus on doing the most good, without taking actions that are truly evil.  However, regarding what I said above, I think there's also an element of limited imagination on my part!  There's a difference between not being able to justify evil and not seeing how someone else might try to justify it.  I actually can't see how someone could claim that the evil endings of KotOR or Jade Empire were for the greater good, not even a little, because it didn't seem like what the villainous protagonists were doing would actually help more people than the alternative.

In fact, I think that a failure of imagination can, itself, be a moral problem.  If one doesn't keep an open mind, then one can end up having to choose a lesser of two evils, when, if one had approached the situation differently, one might have seen another option that wouldn't have been evil at all.  I just hope that my failure of imagination is more on the evil side of things than the good, that I have more trouble thinking of the former than the latter.  

leaguer of one wrote...

It not that the protagonist can't be truely evil. It's you don't have just plain evil for evil sake choices. All choice are morally grey. It's what you intend that make you actions evil.

You have the right to this opinion, of course, but it is not self-evident and I disagree with it.  I think that a person can truly commit evil, even when their motivations are, from their point of view, totally good.  I would say that several qualities combine to affect the moral status of an action: the act in itself; the intention of the actor; the circumstances in which the action is taken; the foreseeable consequences of the action; and the extent to which the action is truly free.  In my view, reducing all that to just intention impoverishes ethics.

In any case, setting that aside for the time being in order to return to video game morality, I return to your comment: "It's you don't have just plain evil for evil sake choices."  Do you mean that Bioware's characters can't do evil for evil's sake, or that no one does, in the world, ever?  I assume the former, since you add: "It's what you intend that make you actions evil."  Presumably, then, you think that some intentions do actually make actions evil.  So you believe that choices like those at the end of KotOR and Jade Empire are not evil for evil's sake?  What are they, then?  To me, both seem like they are chosen for power, but I see their way of obtaining said power as evil.  You don't see what they do as evil?  Or do I misunderstand?

[Medhia Nox]

@Maria Caliban: I understand what you're saying - but if a game even provides "villain" choices - then it isn't really discussing anything but the most basic concept of evil.

To truly play a villain - I think a story would have to be willing to upset its player base when the "meta" reveal of outcomes is revealed to the player.

Ultimately - it "must" be the developers who decide whether their NPCs consider you villainous.

[The Xand]

pdusen wrote...

As someone who played all of the KOTOR, DA and ME series games--the only game where I felt like I was allowed to be really evil was KOTOR1. The worst you can do with the other ones is just be a huge jerk and make some morally ambiguous decisions.

Frankly, I miss KOTOR1's style of evil.

Force persuading a Wookie to kill his best friend was brilliant.

[Senya]

Having a Tevinter Blood Mage sacrifice a bunch of captured elves for a boost in Constitution seems pretty evil to me.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[Medhia Nox]

@almostinsane99 Not really - it's so comically mustache twirling that it can only be taken in a meta-context.

Ohhh... look at me, the corrupt slaver searching for ultimate power.

Yes, it's "evil" - but it's the type of evil really only found in stories.

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think the closest thing Bioware has done recently to make a true villain to play as was Jade Empire (written by Gaider and Laidlaw, ) if you choose to follow the path of the closed fist.

To date, that is the only game that has made me feel truly dirty and like scum after beating it on the Closed Fist ending.

Close fist is not totally evil. There two levels of it. One of the tyrant and one of the servivalist. Open palm also has a tyrant path as well.

Really? I've played it through maybe 6-7 times, most of them on Open Palm. How on earth do you get the tyrant's path on Open Palm?

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@almostinsane99 Not really - it's so comically mustache twirling that it can only be taken in a meta-context.

Ohhh... look at me, the corrupt slaver searching for ultimate power.

Yes, it's "evil" - but it's the type of evil really only found in stories.

I think Jade Empire's sould binding all your followers so they have no choice but to follow you, but can still make clear their contempt of you destroying their free-will a far greater example of evil than force persuade.