132 réponses à ce sujet

[Soja57]

The final act of the Citadel DLC for ME3 does slightly alleviate the issue of enemies lacking powers in ME3. The Clone is a very interesting boss fight due to using many different powers based on player class. I've only done one playthrough of the DLC when it was released, but I thought the boss battle was executed well in terms of gameplay.

[IceTrey1987]

TheMyron wrote...

The concept of reloading (like with thermal clips) should stay as well, the explanation for "unlimited ammo" in ME1 made no sense...

Thermal clips don't have anything to do with ammo.  The ammo is the same in all three games and is not "unlimited", there is just so much of it in a weapon (due to the fact that a tiny piece of metal can be given much more impact due to mass effect fields) that soldiers won't ever run out on the battlefield.  Thermal clips only have to do with keeping the weapon from overheating.  The pre-thermal clip weapons have it built in, but they therotetically can't put out as many rounds as fast as a weapon that can just switch clips and keep shooting without worrying about overheating. 
 

In gameplay it works just like ammo would, but the rounds indicated aren't the rounds "in the thermal clip", just how many rounds before you'll have to replace it.

However a lot of people, myself and Conrad Verner included, think there's a lot of merit to automatic cooldown weapons.  Especially sniper rifles.  An actual sniper wouldn't want to have to move around a lot or carry a bunch of ammo, and he shouldn't be spraying anyway, so a cooldown based sniper rifle with unlimited ammo sounds way better than a thermal clip based weapon.

I think it'd be cool if you got to choose.  Kind of like how you have the ability to choose the Lancer in ME3.

Modifié par IceTrey1987, 08 décembre 2013 - 07:49 .

[IceTrey1987]

I should note that'd be changing the story, however. Thermal clips weren't developed until after the Eden Prime war/first battle of the citadel.

[TheMyron]

IceTrey1987 wrote...

I should note that'd be changing the story, however. Thermal clips weren't developed until after the Eden Prime war/first battle of the citadel.

Somehow Shepard knew all about them the moment he woke up in the Cerberus facility; and plus Jacob's dad and his crew was stranded for the past ten years in a remote world, yet their weapons use thermal clips...

P.S. I only said the "concept of reloading".

Modifié par TheMyron, 08 décembre 2013 - 09:07 .

[capn233]

Thermal clips came simply as a surrogate for reloading ammunition. Since ME guns didn't need ammunition reloaded, they came up with the "thermal clip" part of the equation so they didn't have to do an actual retcon.

[IceTrey1987]

TheMyron wrote...

IceTrey1987 wrote...

I should note that'd be changing the story, however. Thermal clips weren't developed until after the Eden Prime war/first battle of the citadel.

Somehow Shepard knew all about them the moment he woke up in the Cerberus facility; and plus Jacob's dad and his crew was stranded for the past ten years in a remote world, yet their weapons use thermal clips...

P.S. I only said the "concept of reloading".

As far as the Shepard thing goes, Shepard didn't die the day after the first battle of the Citadel.  It's possible he was familiar with them at the time of his death.  As for Taylor's crew, I don't really remember that part a lot.

Anyway I was just responding to the part about how the explanation of infinite ammo didn't make sense.  None of them ever had technically infinite ammo.  Just a whole lot.

[Soja57]

 Thermal clips still has one odd feature to it when it is associated as "reloading". Let's take the Revenant for example. You have a fresh thermal clip in the Revenant, and only shoot one bullet to generate a minuscule amount of heat in the thermal clip. Yet you can reload, which replaces the entire thermal clip with a new one, a big waste of a thermal clip. Of course, gameplay doesn't treat weapons limited by thermal clips, but rather by "reserve ammo" so as to not ****** players off for wasting "ammo". Basically, Shepard magically creates a set amount of thermal clips for each weapon.

But then again, most games don't handle ammo properly. For example, a soldier replaces a magazine to reload; the ammo in the dumped magazine is kept and transferred to reserve ammo or the fresh magazine. In real life, the ammo would be lost (Battlefield 3 and 4 implement this realistic feature in their Hardcore modes, which is a neat idea).

I'm not saying I hate thermal clips; it actually makes combat flow a lot better than the overheat system. I'm just pointing out that it has flaws in terms of lore (but I guess you can criticize a lot of things where lore went wrong in Mass Effect). I also think there is a better approach to implementing a "reload" system than thermal clips while still sticking to lore.

Modifié par Soja57, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:41 .

[capn233]

Soja57 wrote...

But then again, most games don't handle ammo properly. For example, a soldier replaces a magazine to reload; the ammo in the dumped magazine is kept and transferred to reserve ammo or the fresh magazine. In real life, the ammo would be lost (Battlefield 3 and 4 implement this realistic feature in their Hardcore modes, which is a neat idea).

It would only be lost if you completely dropped the mag.  The original Rainbow Six did it correctly where you would end up with some partially filled mags on you if you reloaded before one was empty.

[Soja57]

Well, I did say most games, not all. I never played Rainbow Six, but that seems like a cool feature. Personally, I would change the reloading mechanics in mass effect to a venting system, even if it means retconning a few things established in the lore. This venting system is a modified form of the ME1 weapon heat system.

None of the games implement the ammo block as a factor in game due to near-limitless ammo. My proposed venting system assumes that the ammo block serves as both "magazine ammo" and "reserve ammo" for weapons, therefore ammo blocks aren't near-limitless anymore (unlimited ammo is a bad idea for balanced gameplay). For example, the Predator pistol has an ammo block that can shave off 90 total shots.

All weapons have a venting module; while it removes automatic cooling, it adds manual venting that is faster than auto-cooling. Each shot fired generates heat which is transferred to a heat sink; the Predator pistol can fire 15 shots before its heat sink is overheated. When overheated, the player must vent the weapon (essentially reloading). However, the player can manually vent heat even if the weapon isn't overheated to maintain low heat levels. The duration of the venting depends on weapon size and heat levels. So a Revenant will take longer to vent than a Predator Pistol. A Revenant with an overheated heat sink will take longer to vent than a Revenant with only a partially heated heat-sink.

Venting animations are similar to reloading in ME2 and 3, except there isn't anything ejected from weapons except steam. With this system, the Predator essentially has 15 shots per firing cycle or "magazine", for a total of 6 firing cycles if it has an ammo block carrying 90 ammo. When you pick up ammo, you are picking up parts for the ammo block. This system incorporates reloading mechanics while removing the oddity of having potentially 100's of thermal clips for a weapon like the Predator Pistol.

Modifié par Soja57, 08 décembre 2013 - 11:16 .

[capn233]

The original Rainbow Six games were somewhat absurd in their realism, especially relative to what we have now. Basically the planning stage was half the mission, and if a squad person was killed, he was gone for the rest of the game. You could also tank bullets about as well as humans do in real life, which is not at all.

[TheMyron]

billpickles wrote...

I thought that about heavy weapons at first too, but having played it through several times now, I just don't think I can support any change that makes ME3 any easier than it already is. Frankly, the only time I really even use heavy weapons in ME2 are to trivialize the two Preatorians and bypass the final husk fight on the Reaper IFF. Cain FTW!

Oh wait...I also use the Collector Particle Beam on the Human Reaper fight. Otherwise, I find I run out of ammo way too fast.

The lack of carrying heavy weapons only ended up helping Kai Leng...

[RedCaesar97]

TheMyron wrote...
The lack of carrying heavy weapons only ended up helping Kai Leng...

Are you talking about the Kai Leng fight at Cerberus HQ or the fight on Thessia? Because you can totally use the Hydra against Kai Leng on Thessia.

The lack of heavy weapons in ME3 is not really an issue since in ME3 Shepard has become a heavy weapon.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 09 décembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[TheMyron]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

TheMyron wrote...
The lack of carrying heavy weapons only ended up helping Kai Leng...

Are you talking about the Kai Leng fight at Cerberus HQ or the fight on Thessia? Because you can totally use the Hydra against Kai Leng on Thessia.

The lack of heavy weapons in ME3 is not really an issue since in ME3 Shepard has become a heavy weapon.

I meant being able to bring down his gunship.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

TheMyron wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

TheMyron wrote...
The lack of carrying heavy weapons only ended up helping Kai Leng...

Are you talking about the Kai Leng fight at Cerberus HQ or the fight on Thessia? Because you can totally use the Hydra against Kai Leng on Thessia.

The lack of heavy weapons in ME3 is not really an issue since in ME3 Shepard has become a heavy weapon.

I meant being able to bring down his gunship.

lol, if you remember the scene in ME2 where Zaeed f's up Vido's gunship and takes out the guy sitting next to him, imagine if Shep did that to Kai Leng both times on the Citadel and on Thessia... Since Kai Leng makes the same getaway twice in ME3. lol smh

[RedCaesar97]

So here are a few questions I was thinking about over the holidays related to power cooldowns/recharge speeds:

(1) Should all classes have the same cooldowns, or should cooldowns be based on your class?

For example, consider Incinerate on the Infiltrator and Engineer. Should the Engineer have a faster cooldown on Incinerate than the Infiltrator, or should they both get the same cooldown? 

Or consider all classes with Reave (or another biotic/tech power). Should all classes have the same cooldown on Reave, or should the Adept have a faster recharge speed on Reave than the Vanguard which in turn has a faster cooldown than than the Soldier?

The way I see it, we have the following choices:

a) Power recharge speeds can be the same for all classes. Recharge speeds are dependent on power rank/evolution and/or upgrades.

Power recharge speeds are dependent on class. Like ME1 and ME2, classes have a hierarchy of power recharge speeds, with the Adept/Engineer and/or Sentinel with the fastest cooldowns, Soldier with the longest cooldowns, and Infiltrator and Vanguard somewhere in the middle. 

c) Power recharge speeds can be the same for all classes, but only if you take certain evolutions on the weapons-based classes. Adept, Engineer and Sentinel can automatically gain the fastest recharge speeds based on passive talents. Soldier, Infiltrator, and Vanguard must take one or more evolutions in their passive talents to equal the recharge speeds of the other classes.


(2) Should all powers have the same recharge speed, or should different powers have different recharge speeds?

In ME1, ME2, and ME3, not all powers had the same recharge speed. In ME2 for example, powers had base cooldowns of 3, 4.5, 6, or 12 seconds. 

But should all powers have a tiered system of recharge speeds, or should all powers have the same recharge speed. For example, consider Combat Drone, Cryo Blast, and Overload. Should these powers have the same recharge speed or should they have different recharge speeds?

a) All powers should have the same recharge speed.

Different powers should have different recharge speeds.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 28 décembre 2013 - 06:45 .

[TheMyron]

Biotic Powers should have one shared cooldown, tech powers should not.

[Soja57]

TheMyron wrote...

Biotic Powers should have one shared cooldown, tech powers should not.

We sort of discussed this earlier...having only biotics share cooldown while excluding tech from using the same system would easily lead to certain classes being unbalanced. The Sentinel would be one of the most confusing characters to use with a mix of biotics and tech. All powers using a global cooldown is already a well-established system in later entries of Mass Effect; ME1 had unbalanced powers due to individual power cooldowns.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

@RedCaesar
Do take note that I'm not taking the weight system into consideration, and going based off of ME2.

(1)

Casters should start with overall faster cooldowns than combat classes, but combat classes can reach comparable cooldowns if specced correctly. I would personally make the class passive tree a mandatory tree, meaning that every class starts with one point placed in the passive, and this single talent point is essentially "locked in" unless using a respec feature.

This is so that each class starts off the game with different stats. Casters would have power cooldown and power damage bonuses at start, while combat classes would have a weapon damage bonus. Casters would essentially have a head-start in the power department, and have evolutions that push the disparities even further.

Like-wise for combat classes. Caster classes have to spec carefully if they want to achieve somewhat comparable weapon damage output to combat classes, often at the cost of power efficiency. Basically, speccing for something the class isn't specialized for should be planned carefully, but if done right, can play well.

(2)

Powers should have different recharge speeds, using the same system from ME2 and 3. This allows the game developers to balance the powers in possibly easier and in a more variety of ways, adds tactical depth to using the right power for the current situation along with learning the powers' stats, and makes each power unique.

For example, Pull has a fast cooldown and allows for quick single-target crowd control, but is less capable of CC than Singularity, which has a longer cooldown. This grants the player different approaches to combat, which is what Mass Effect should be. Giving every power the same cooldown removes an element of tactical depth and power variety.

ME2 handled power cooldowns the best in the series, with a good balance of base cooldown durations and reasonable cooldown evolutions and upgrades. The only issue I have is the long 12 second cooldowns for defensive powers. The maximum cooldown I would want is 9 seconds; anything longer destroys the pacing between weapon and power use. Ridiculously short cooldowns like in ME3 via +200 cooldown from weapon weight is a bad approach, players can reach these insane cooldown bonuses with little effort, and truly destroys the value of cooldown bonuses from power evolutions.

[TheMyron]

Soja57 wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

Biotic Powers should have one shared cooldown, tech powers should not.

We sort of discussed this earlier...having only biotics share cooldown while excluding tech from using the same system would easily lead to certain classes being unbalanced. The Sentinel would be one of the most confusing characters to use with a mix of biotics and tech. All powers using a global cooldown is already a well-established system in later entries of Mass Effect; ME1 had unbalanced powers due to individual power cooldowns.

Hey, it only means that the N7 Paladin is Top Dog on the battlefield...

[Soja57]

TheMyron wrote...
Hey, it only means that the N7 Paladin is Top Dog on the battlefield...

The Paladin is simply a Sentinel trying too hard to be an Engineer. Nonetheless, I like that guy with his Snap Cheeze and Captain America shield.

On topic, I think a more defined loyalty system somewhat like ME2 for the trilogy could add some depth to squad interaction. I think most can agree that the ME2 squad was a bit large, but the arguments between two characters such as Jack vs Miranda and Tali vs Legion added some much needed squad interaction. The arguments also created a tense atmosphere where a squadmate's loyalty to Shepard was questioned, along with Shepard's connection to the squad.

I would personally push the loyalty system a bit further, granted that we have access to more squad interactions. I would love to see the ME2 squad on hub worlds such as Omega, Illium, and Citadel on shore leave as was featured in ME3 whenever Shepard entered the Citadel. Squadmates would have a loyalty bar similar to Shepard's Reputation Bar, except there is only loyalty points and not renegade or paragon points.

Loyalty would impact squad interactions and banter moreso than what we currently have. It could also play a pivotal role in the plot, such as Tali's loyalty playing a factor in the outcome of the Rannoch story arc in ME3. In fact, the Rannoch outcome already has an arbitrary loyalty system, where the only way to create peace between geth and quarians is via points accumulated from side missions and Shepard's actions in ME2.

Here is a thread discussing the "points system" in order to broker peace on Rannoch.

I would say that these points could be part of Tali's Loyalty, and possibly even Legion's. If there loyalty points isn't high enough, then peace would not be an option. The same could apply to the Genophage story arc, where loyalty determines the fate of Wrex, Mordin, Bakara, and of course the entire Krogan race.

Modifié par Soja57, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:57 .

[capn233]

Cooldowns:

I don't think it makes much sense to have a distinction between combat classes and casters regarding cooldowns, at least at base. Different passives may grant different bonuses, but base has been base for the powers since the beginning IIRC.

I am in the middle of an ME1 game right now, and I don't think there is any compelling reason to go back to individual powers for any of them rather they be biotics or tech, even if cooldowns were much longer back then (60-120s). It also really promotes power-spam over picking the correct power for the correct situation.

It would be interesting if cooldowns were more reliant on bio-amp and omni-tool upgrades rather than passive or evolutions in the individual powers though. This could even be a brand new thing that they could introduce to the MP RNG store... you would have to frame it that way since all future ME titles will be MP driven most likely.

Another consideration that seems counter-intuitive would be to make some higher evolutions of powers incur a penalty to cooldown. This would likely run RPG purists the wrong way since the traditional roadmap is to make your character massively overpowered by late game, but I think it makes sense from a balance standpoint and to make evolution choices more meaningful.

[Soja57]

Bio-amp and omni-tool upgrades is a great way to contribute to power stats. I would prefer if bio-amp and omni-tools went back to being inventory items. ME1 inventory got somewhat cluttered, but I liked the idea of customizing omni-tools and bio-amps.

This is similar to how weapons work in ME3. Weapons can be upgraded by purchases that grants ammo, weight reduction, and weapon damage. Class passives and powers can also increase the stats of these weapons through the use of talent points.

Both types of upgrades equally contribute to the weapon's efficiency, whereas powers are primarily affected by talent tree upgrades and passives, but not much else.

As to evolutions that incur some kind of penalty, Nova and a few other powers already do this. Nova has the half-blast evolution, which weakens its damage and force but comes with a fair tradeoff of reduced barrier use. As long as the evolution has a fair tradeoff for granting a penalty, it generally doesn't bother me. These kinds of evolutions also offer new ways to approach combat, especially Nova Half-Blast.

[TheMyron]

Why is everyone anti "the more the merrier" when it comes to squad size?

[RedCaesar97]

TheMyron wrote...
Why is everyone anti "the more the merrier" when it comes to squad size?

Because you tend to end up with something like ME2, where you have a bunch of overlap between squadmates, and most of them go underused depending on your class or preferences. For example:

• three squadmates with Overload (Kasumi, Garrus, and Miranda)
• two squadmates with Warp (Thane and Miranda)
• two squadmates with Concussive Shot
• three squadmates with Pull (Jacob, Jack, and Samara/Morinth)
• two squadmates with Throw (Thane and Samara/Morinth)
• two squadmates with Incendiary Ammo (Grunt and Jacob)

With a smaller squad size, you can distribute the powers more evenly to try and make them more useful to more classes. ME3 does this a little better. ME1 also did it pretty well, but it still had some problems with squadmate overlap.

I do not mind a larger squad, but to compensate, you have to give them fewer powers. I actually think fewer squadmate powers is a good thing, particularly if some powers end up being terrible on squadmates (Barrier on Kaidan, Defense Matrix on EDI, Carnage on James for example).

[TheMyron]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

TheMyron wrote...
Why is everyone anti "the more the merrier" when it comes to squad size?

Because you tend to end up with something like ME2, where you have a bunch of overlap between squadmates, and most of them go underused depending on your class or preferences. For example:

• three squadmates with Overload (Kasumi, Garrus, and Miranda)
• two squadmates with Warp (Thane and Miranda)
• two squadmates with Concussive Shot
• three squadmates with Pull (Jacob, Jack, and Samara/Morinth)
• two squadmates with Throw (Thane and Samara/Morinth)
• two squadmates with Incendiary Ammo (Grunt and Jacob)

With a smaller squad size, you can distribute the powers more evenly to try and make them more useful to more classes. ME3 does this a little better. ME1 also did it pretty well, but it still had some problems with squadmate overlap.

I do not mind a larger squad, but to compensate, you have to give them fewer powers. I actually think fewer squadmate powers is a good thing, particularly if some powers end up being terrible on squadmates (Barrier on Kaidan, Defense Matrix on EDI, Carnage on James for example).

Tsk tsk tsk, am I the only who cares more for story than for gameplay? All you think about is power.

[RedCaesar97]

TheMyron wrote...
Tsk tsk tsk, am I the only who cares more for story than for gameplay? All you think about is power.

Even with branching dialogue trees and multiple squadmates, eventually the story will hold no more surprises. And squad-based combat is about 50% of the game, and the combat is what keeps me coming back.

And story-wise, fewer squadmates means the writers can focus on each squadmate more, meaning more dialogue for each squadmate which can lead to more well-written or fleshed-out characters.

More characters means each character will have less dialogue and each character will end up being more one-note characters. As it is, BioWare writers already recycle the same characters in every game they make.  You have to try to make them distinct.