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[Neverwinter_Knight77]

commoner?  "His daughter may be the queen, but he is a commoner."  It doesn't make any sense to me.

The guy is a teyrn.  I figure that makes him a noble, and the highest ranking one, at that.  I try my best to ignore lines like that when I hear them, because it just sounds so ludicrous...  Ludicrous like the Arl of Denerim holding the Queen of Ferelden hostage .

[sylvanaerie]

Loghain is an 'upjumped' commoner. I forget what his dad was (I think a farmer?), but he wasn't a teyrn till Maric gave him the Teyrnir of Gwaren.  Regardless of what he is now, I am sure a lot of the nobles see him as just a commoner intruding on their select society, regardless of what title he has.  And one of the reasons you can supplant Anora with Maric's bastard is, while technically NOT a commoner, she's one generation away from that.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:57 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I guess it's like the "old money vs. new money" thing.  Any excuse to be a snob, I suppose.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Essentially.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I guess it's like the "old money vs. new money" thing.

Not entirely. This is when people thought noble or royal ancestry made your blood inherently better, more virtuous, than those of common birth. Some cultures even believe royal blood is divine. Making someone a noble is tantamount to saying 'this person is just as good as you with your flawless noble pedigree, even if you are descended from a god'.

Any excuse to be a snob, I suppose.

That's largely true though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I guess it's like the "old money vs. new money" thing.

Not entirely. This is when people thought noble or royal ancestry made your blood inherently better, more virtuous, than those of common birth. Some cultures even believe royal blood is divine. Making someone a noble is tantamount to saying 'this person is just as good as you with your flawless noble pedigree, even if you are descended from a god'.

Ferelden isn't supposed to be like that, though. According to the HN origin fluff, the nobility are in charge because someone has to be, and can be thrown out. (It doesn't really show up much in game, though.)

[Ferretinabun]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ferelden isn't supposed to be like that, though. According to the HN origin fluff, the nobility are in charge because someone has to be, and can be thrown out. (It doesn't really show up much in game, though.)

Are you implying Ferelden nobility rule by consent? Really? Where are you getting that, specifically?

[BevH]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ferelden isn't supposed to be like that, though. According to the HN origin fluff, the nobility are in charge because someone has to be, and can be thrown out. (It doesn't really show up much in game, though.)

Are you implying Ferelden nobility rule by consent? Really? Where are you getting that, specifically?

It's not really consent. The Landsmeet chose Bryce over Cailan (Bryce declined). The Couslands came to rule Highever because Sarim was the captain of the guard (from the codex).

[Wulfram]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ferelden isn't supposed to be like that, though. According to the HN origin fluff, the nobility are in charge because someone has to be, and can be thrown out. (It doesn't really show up much in game, though.)

Are you implying Ferelden nobility rule by consent? Really? Where are you getting that, specifically?

Well, each freehold chooses which Ban or Arl it pays allegiance to.  So an unpopular noble could end up without much in the way of subjects.

http://dragonage.wik...ics_of_Ferelden

[Ferretinabun]

Even so, I'd argue this doesn't contradict the notion that the nobility are a breed above. The captain of the guard could well be a position fit for nobility (think the Kingsguard of GoT), and choosing which noble will rule you is different to actually becoming one yourself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ferelden isn't supposed to be like that, though. According to the HN origin fluff, the nobility are in charge because someone has to be, and can be thrown out. (It doesn't really show up much in game, though.)

Are you implying Ferelden nobility rule by consent? Really? Where are you getting that, specifically?

Took me a while to find.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Origins#Human_Noble

[Ferretinabun]

Hmm, interesting. In which case it does seem a little weird Loghain being looked down on for common birth. That is, assuming they are looking down on him for it? I can't remember who actually says the line...

If anyone's keeping notes, this makes Ferelden's political system very much like the old Anglo-Saxon one of ancient Britain - before the Normans invaded and decided to do everything their way. A bit like Orlais - except they were here to stay.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Even so, I'd argue this doesn't contradict the notion that the nobility are a breed above. The captain of the guard could well be a position fit for nobility (think the Kingsguard of GoT), and choosing which noble will rule you is different to actually becoming one yourself.

The lords of Highever command knights, so the captain of their guard would probably be one. And since at the time Highever wasn't a very prominent fief, a knight would have been a logical next in line. Also, while I can't find it at the moment (and thus can't really say how reliable it is), I seem to recall reading that Cousland and Elstan were cousins.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 novembre 2013 - 02:04 .

[BevH]

*grumbles* stupid buttons in stupid places...

Modifié par BevH, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[BevH]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Hmm, interesting. In which case it does seem a little weird Loghain being looked down on for common birth. That is, assuming they are looking down on him for it? I can't remember who actually says the line...

If anyone's keeping notes, this makes Ferelden's political system very much like the old Anglo-Saxon one of ancient Britain - before the Normans invaded and decided to do everything their way. A bit like Orlais - except they were here to stay.

I believe it's Eamon that says that.

And Elstan was a distant cousin of Howe. It's in the codex entry on Highever.

In Ferelden's past, it was the strongest warlord that ruled. It's why Ferelden is viewed as being made up of barbarians. Since Loghain didn't inherit Gwaren, nor did he win it through battle, he's viewed, at least by some, as an upstart... nouveau rich.

Modifié par BevH, 13 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[Corker]

Ferretinabun wrote...

If anyone's keeping notes, this makes Ferelden's political system very much like the old Anglo-Saxon one of ancient Britain - before the Normans invaded and decided to do everything their way. A bit like Orlais - except they were here to stay.

Yeah.  The Landsmeet is pretty much the Witenagemot.

Oddly, although I have no problems with the mixing of Scandanavian decorative motifs and Anglo-Saxon politics in the game, the random Celtoid names sprinkled in get under my skin.

[The Xand]

Corker wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

If anyone's keeping notes, this makes Ferelden's political system very much like the old Anglo-Saxon one of ancient Britain - before the Normans invaded and decided to do everything their way. A bit like Orlais - except they were here to stay.

Yeah.  The Landsmeet is pretty much the Witenagemot.

Oddly, although I have no problems with the mixing of Scandanavian decorative motifs and Anglo-Saxon politics in the game, the random Celtoid names sprinkled in get under my skin.

It's actually closer to the Scottish Parliament of the Middle Ages. All the more so in light of Ferelden's war of independence against a richer and more powerful neighbouring aggressor with a better trained and equipped army of knights. Maric's uprising was all terribly Braveheart.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 novembre 2013 - 04:06 .

[Jayce]

Amusing really as Braveheart had very little in common with what it was based on. When King Alexander died with no heir, the only two candidates where two vaguely distant cousins; John De Balliol a English-Norman baron whose maternal grandfather was the Duke of Galloway and Robert Bruce another Scottish-Norman lord. Edward was appointed arbiter of the two claimants and agreed to back Balliol's claim if he agreed to pay homage to Edward and become his vassal. Balliol agreed, then as soon as he was crowned, reneged. Edward who'd spent his entire youth fighting and crushing rebellions by duplicitous barons had a serious sense of humor failure and regarded Balliol as nothing more than a rebel vassal. The notion of nationality that Braveheart throws into the mix is utterly anachronistic.... as is the woad war paint.... and the kilts....

Anyway, given the very strong sense of nationality in Ferelden historical parallels don't really work all that great.

[The Xand]

Jayce F wrote...

Amusing really as Braveheart had very little in common with what it was based on. When King Alexander died with no heir, the only two candidates where two vaguely distant cousins; John De Balliol a English-Norman baron whose maternal grandfather was the Duke of Galloway and Robert Bruce another Scottish-Norman lord. Edward was appointed arbiter of the two claimants and agreed to back Balliol's claim if he agreed to pay homage to Edward and become his vassal. Balliol agreed, then as soon as he was crowned, reneged. Edward who'd spent his entire youth fighting and crushing rebellions by duplicitous barons had a serious sense of humor failure and regarded Balliol as nothing more than a rebel vassal.

That's fantasy worlds for you. Nobody in Scotland takes Braveheart too srsly. The plight of King Alexander and the Scottish throne reminds me of what happened in Dragon Age when Cailan died. Teyrn Loghain is a brilliant standin for Longshanks, ironically enough given his loyalty to Ferelden and the struggles he endured to free it. A duplicitous, ruthless tyrant with aspirations to being the power behind the throne.

Jayce F wrote...

The notion of nationality that Braveheart throws into the mix is utterly anachronistic.... as is the woad war paint.... and the kilts....

Anyway, given the very strong sense of nationality in Ferelden historical parallels don't really work all that great.

War paint was a bit off the mark, but kilts had indeed existed for centuries by that point in the form of the great plaid. Which is essentially just a big kilt.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 novembre 2013 - 06:34 .