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[Obadiah]

[Edited for Expansion of the Idea]
Shepard died at the beginning of ME2, then was resurrected, and in ME3 he dreamed about a dreary mystical forest where he heard the voices of people (and AI) who have passed on.

Lately I've become fascinated by how similar the story of Mass Effect trilogy is to a fantasy epic or a biblical tale, except it is told with mostly science fiction explanations which slowly (or suddenly) errode as the story centers more and more on the Reapers. Shepard receives an apolalypic vision in ME1 which leads to his belief. After this sheer belief in the Reapers or the lack of it becomes central to the plot of preparing for their coming and attack. Later inMass Effect 2 Shepard does kind of does travel the galaxy as a resurrected doomsayer (sans the excessive protheletising) collecting disciples, glowing with power when he gets angry.

Of course, the dreams are literally meant to depict some sort of subconscious thought - be it guilt, PTSD, or just something on Shep's mind being worked out.

In the vein of likening the story to a fantasy, I've always liked the idea of mortals being manipulated unbeknownst to themselves by the gods. Do you think the dreams could be interpretted as:
- Death calling to reclaim him
- Shepard's repressed memory of what it was like to be dead, or the land of the dead
- A vision from a higher power (Ashley's god) of a destroyed landscape that will remain after the Reaper attack, and perhaps a warning
- Shepard now raised from that dead as a sort of "semi-immortal", a communication between two demi-gods (Shepard and the Catalyst)

Do you have any other somewhat mystical interpretations?

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 novembre 2013 - 04:02 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Do you think the dreams could be interpretted as Death calling to reclaim him?

If ME was a work of fantasy where mysticism, anthropomorphic personifications and physical gods existed then yes; as it is it wouldn't fit the genre.

[SwobyJ]

Sci fi novels I've read often has those things Alex. It just explains them scientifically whenever possible, or has a technological basis behind them instead of magickyhandwavium alone.

It's how Synthesis is currently rightly called 'Space Magic' (fantasy until we get better explanation), but Legion 'sharing his code to everyone' while asking if he has a soul, is still 'sci-fi enough'.


EDIT: Sorry, I don't think OP means literally Death the entity, unless he tells me otherwise? I was thinking he meant that it is symbolic of death beaconing him, in the more artistic sense. That the dream levels are designed with this form of symbolism and aesthetic, and possibly story reason beyond the overt narrative.
But I could be inserting a lot of my own beliefs into that, lol

That said, Mass Effect tries not to step on anyone's toes too much, and allows various beliefs. If you want to believe that gods exist in the Mass universe, even Drell ones for example, go ahead, they give you enough reason to believe, even if they won't justify your faith in it completely. One could easily take the dreams as a spiritual message from beyond, but imo it's a little more concrete than that

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[Obadiah]

It's true, I was speaking in a literal, mystical, spiritual "we don't know everything yet" manner about Death. I didn't mean Death as a person specifically, but more as a mystical force of nature.

I don't mind mixing mysticism and science fiction if it is at least consistent. The idea that Death would be calling Shepard because he has cheated it, or escaped it unnaturally just kind of appeals to me on poetic level. To me it's actually even better that he cheated Death with an evil terrorist organization (basically "unnatural" evil tech witches and worlocks), and the universe it trying to right itself now.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[SwobyJ]

I see it more as the Mass Effect God, (currently) the Intelligence, calling Shepard towards his death, and Shepard fighting it every step of the way, until he can (optionally, through Paragon dialogue) come to a relative peace about it. It is also a warning to Shepard from himself. Less mystique, more psychological cyphers and symbols.

But that's too IT. Nevermind. Hehe.

Shepard was supposed to die from the Collector attack, after screwing up the established Harvest schedule. Anything else after that was cheating the system in one way or another, a system established by superior beings.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Mcfly616]

That's an interesting way of interpreting it. Symbolism isn't bound to any one genre. Especially when it's regarding death.

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

I see it more as the Mass Effect God, (currently) the Intelligence, calling Shepard towards his death, and Shepard fighting it every step of the way, until he can (optionally, through Paragon dialogue) come to a relative peace about it. It is also a warning to Shepard from himself. Less mystique, more psychological cyphers and symbols.

But that's too IT. Nevermind. Hehe.

Shepard was supposed to die from the Collector attack, after screwing up the established Harvest schedule. Anything else after that was cheating the system in one way or another, a system established by superior beings.

Oh I like this as well. There is your universe spanning Death god or force of nature, then there are the AI Reaper demi-gods, and Shepard is upending their established system and screwing with all of them.

No wonder Lord Harby is so interested in this mortal.

The revolution has begun!

[Jorji Costava]

Interesting OP. It's fairly obvious that the dreams are meant to foreshadow Shepard's death, but I didn't think that they were calling back to the Lazarus project specifically. Perhaps Shepard's death would have been more interesting if the game did more to make that particular connection. For instance, suppose that it turns out that the Lazarus project was only ever a temporary fix. Perhaps the underlying idea is, as you suggest, that Shepard is somehow living on "borrowed time" (think Babylon 5's "Sleeping in Light," for anyone who's seen that show). The dreams could be explained as a result of Shep's Lazarus implants breaking down or some such. That at least seems a little better than the idea that Shepard must die at the end because reasons.

[spinachdiaper]

it is PTSD, Survivor's guilt, and what happens when Bioware killed a npc kid for dramatic effect

[SwobyJ]

Shepard doesn't have to die.

But perhaps the synthetic part always required some form of resolution, even if it is part of more of a sub-narrative.

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I see it more as the Mass Effect God, (currently) the Intelligence, calling Shepard towards his death, and Shepard fighting it every step of the way, until he can (optionally, through Paragon dialogue) come to a relative peace about it. It is also a warning to Shepard from himself. Less mystique, more psychological cyphers and symbols.

But that's too IT. Nevermind. Hehe.

Shepard was supposed to die from the Collector attack, after screwing up the established Harvest schedule. Anything else after that was cheating the system in one way or another, a system established by superior beings.

Oh I like this as well. There is your universe spanning Death god or force of nature, then there are the AI Reaper demi-gods, and Shepard is upending their established system and screwing with all of them.

No wonder Lord Harby is so interested in this mortal.

The revolution has begun!

A lot of people don't seem to like me comparing Mass Effect to spiritual or religious symbols and messages. I'm glad you seem cool with it.

I think all endings are victories, and are based on:
1)Personal morality
2)How you interpreted messages throughout the series
3)How 'nudged' you are in different directions by the narrative (series is Destroy focused then built in layers *around* that for 'greater understandings' and knowledge, optional)

Transcendance - Synthesis
Heaven - Control
Purgatory - Citadel DLC
Earth - (especially Breath) Destroy
Hell - A mystery


Pick your place.

Sometimes I feel that if the middle choice was Destroy, a lot less people would have an issue. They'd feel Shepard's 'destiny' was always to destroy the Reapers, not... kneel at their God/Creator and do what it says.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:56 .

[Zan51]

Erm, correct me if I am wrong, but the Reapers don't create anything but organic sludge from creative intelligent species, organic or synthetic, to make another one of themselves. I can't see how you can equate them to any kind of creator figure... They destroy, not create.

[SwobyJ]

Zan51 wrote...

Erm, correct me if I am wrong, but the Reapers don't create anything but organic sludge from creative intelligent species, organic or synthetic, to make another one of themselves. I can't see how you can equate them to any kind of creator figure... They destroy, not create.

We don't have outright proof, but I believe we're all but told that the Reapers preserve a species in a virtual space of some sort within them.

Or, at least their records and knowledge and memories. This is at minimum.

I'm 100% personally sure that it's not only organic sludge for genetic records. That's like... the hardware to construct the (inner unique) Reaper and have it flail around.
But our minds are the software to give it intelligence and capability.
And it seems the Intelligence gives it purpose, with mandate to huskify, harvest, manipulate, fight.
Then give it the hard shell to transport around in, and we have our space cuttlefish! All formed in the image of Harbinger, who in turn is formed in the image of the Leviathans.

Take away the organic sludge and we have something at least closer to Overlord. Just a failure of mixing organic minds with synthetic componants. Need some 'meat'!
Take away the mind interface (personal speculation) and we have the Human Reaper baby. Wah wahhh.
Take away the Intelligence's guidance and ...well, I'd sure love to see that


It could very well be that Reapers/Intelligence doesn't view organics as sapient as we view ourselves. It may be called a 'Harvest' for a reason. While we observe, think, feel - the Reapers may very well think in a much more 'cosmic' scale, and see us like we see... well, maybe not PLANTS, but at least rodents and other simple mammals.
Food and resources, in the end, even if done with benevolent-ish goal of preservation, and initial programming and purpose set by the Leviathans.


EDIT: The creator figure is the Intelligence. Sadly, we only got our 10 minutes with a lame kid version of him. Yayy..
The Reapers are closer to Angels, with a twiste!

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:46 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Reapers .... Marmalade Theory for the win.

[Deathsaurer]

You know I thought that was a silly theory then I listened to some of the stuff Legion said and it clicked in a very disturbing way. Thanks Legion.

[SwobyJ]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Reapers .... Marmalade Theory for the win.

MT is at least partially true imo

It just simply is NOT just 'sludge'.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

You know I thought that was a silly theory then I listened to some of the stuff Legion said and it clicked in a very disturbing way. Thanks Legion.

Play ME1-2 over and over again and a lot of things will click in a very disturbing way.

[BioWareAre****s]

I personally think that the nightmares are meant to be a visual representation of the stress that Shepard's going through - he/she has to fight a war she's spent 3 years (and given his/her life) trying to prevent, his/her friends are dying all around them and everyone's still knocking at his/her door expecting help. Shepard's worn out, but you can't have Shepard breaking down over it because they're the big hero - if they fall it could have a domino effect on everyone else. So instead Shepard dreams; it gives you the visual representation of the stress but it's private - no one knows about it but Shepard.

[SwobyJ]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

I personally think that the nightmares are meant to be a visual representation of the stress that Shepard's going through - he/she has to fight a war she's spent 3 years (and given his/her life) trying to prevent, his/her friends are dying all around them and everyone's still knocking at his/her door expecting help. Shepard's worn out, but you can't have Shepard breaking down over it because they're the big hero - if they fall it could have a domino effect on everyone else. So instead Shepard dreams; it gives you the visual representation of the stress but it's private - no one knows about it but Shepard.

Then this was weird.

http://social.biowar...1665/1#11921972

[BioWareAre****s]

SwobyJ wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...

I personally think that the nightmares are meant to be a visual representation of the stress that Shepard's going through - he/she has to fight a war she's spent 3 years (and given his/her life) trying to prevent, his/her friends are dying all around them and everyone's still knocking at his/her door expecting help. Shepard's worn out, but you can't have Shepard breaking down over it because they're the big hero - if they fall it could have a domino effect on everyone else. So instead Shepard dreams; it gives you the visual representation of the stress but it's private - no one knows about it but Shepard.

Then this was weird.

http://social.biowar...1665/1#11921972

I'd forgotten about that...it bugged me for ages...
I'm not saying I'm *right*, I'm just saying it's my opinion.

[Star fury]

spinachdiaper wrote...

it is PTSD, Survivor's guilt, and what happens when Bioware killed a npc kid for dramatic effect

Pretty much. It's mostly PTSD caused by the the stupid kid.

[SwobyJ]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...

I personally think that the nightmares are meant to be a visual representation of the stress that Shepard's going through - he/she has to fight a war she's spent 3 years (and given his/her life) trying to prevent, his/her friends are dying all around them and everyone's still knocking at his/her door expecting help. Shepard's worn out, but you can't have Shepard breaking down over it because they're the big hero - if they fall it could have a domino effect on everyone else. So instead Shepard dreams; it gives you the visual representation of the stress but it's private - no one knows about it but Shepard.

Then this was weird.

http://social.biowar...1665/1#11921972

I'd forgotten about that...it bugged me for ages...
I'm not saying I'm *right*, I'm just saying it's my opinion.

Well to be fair, I don't disagree with anything you said. I only think the source is different - but everything you said may still be true; visual representations of the stress Shepard is going through.


EDIT: Oh, and btw to sidenote explain the linked thread - those 'tree reflections' in the Crucible sequence is probably cut assets from the older version of the script. The leaked script quickly describes a 'Guardian's garden' or something.
I suppose we were going to meet the Guardian (the Catalyst was going to be Javik), and it was going to be in more of a garden environment in order to, perhaps, have it describe how it tends to the galaxy like a ...harvest .

Instead, we got something more cold and mechanical, yet just as bizarre.

In the IT sense, it may explain the dreams better. They take place in the woods, park, and that might have thematically fit better with the theme of the galaxy being an 'overgrowth' of life that requires the Harvest before conflicts overwhelm it.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:28 .

[BronzTrooper]

The way I interpreted it in my first playthrough, was that Shep was upset that an innocent child was killed and s/he couldn't do anything to stop it. When the final dream came up, I thought of it as a indicator that Shep was going to die, or thought s/he was going to die.

[666Bratwurst]

I had a similar dream about a year ago only there was a large rocky path I was walking down for what seemed like hours in a very not so dissimilar forest. I saw some kind of weird *thing*/creature consuming a colorful glowing substance from a glass bottle out of several it had tied around it's waist in the middle of a 7 way crossroad.It wasn't a scary looking creature or thing but it was enough to make my caution over-ride my bravado,compared to the creepy looking oily,shadowy, blackened humanoid creatures I saw in the vatican in another dream...but that's a different story.

I believe it's as simple as a symbol of the pressure of dealing with such monsters and having deal with a galaxy that is unprepared despite how Shepard had warned them.The dark forest could be a symbol of his growing regret and the shadows that form are the lives lost that curse or beg someone or in this case,Shepard to spare them from a gruesome death.The shadows are (dare I say) lost souls that repetitively try to pull Shepard down and the voices are Shepard's lost friends trying to keep him/her focused as he/she is constantly attacked by his own and other peoples demons.The star brat ...er...child is a representation of the people back on earth and the loss of innocence which is in reality ;the loss of blissful ignorance and now everyone must deal with it.
The child runs because Shepard is in a way,attempting to save himself and his sanity possibly (purely) by instinct
given that a child represents innocence and at the same time blissfull ignorance which is what Shepard possibly prefers by the time of the invasion and maybe even before.

The dream sequence could have or should have been alot different than initially portrayed given that Mass Effect 3 is a war against  extinction.

Modifié par 666Bratwurst, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[SwobyJ]

Very good 666Bratwurst.