91 réponses à ce sujet

[Tokenusername]

saxybeast418 wrote...

If any of you haven't already, check this out:

http://www.penny-arc...le-games-part-1

Extra Credits is an awesome show that tackles all sorts of video game related topics.

This is a recent episode (the second part of this just aired today) that goes into the potential (and dangers) of the booster pack model. While it seems to mainly focus on free-to-play portable titles, it applies perfectly to ME3 multiplayer's upgrade system.

These don't really apply to MP. The discussion is about an RNG pack business model that requires purchase. MP has purchasing as only an option. These are sort of related to the topic at large, but not really this discussion.

[dosomethinguseful]

How does making us purchase each pack individually factor into this?

[hong]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

I think the next step is to perma lock someones GI

Locking down someone's gastrointestinal tract? Sounds like a good diet plan to me.

[Strict31]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

What InstaShark was referencing was the post 2 above his, My comment was directed more at player trading instead of into a system.

Even if it was a trade system into a system it could be easily gamed. Lets take your example of 2 blues for a silver, and then lets say it was 2 silver for a gold. Currently lets say the value of a blue is 5k (recruit pack) whereas the value of a gold is 60k (spectre pack). We have now established 4 blues = gold, which allows us to cause the value of our gold to decline to be worth only 20k which renders all other packs moot.

Now if we said alright lets do it at a 10:1 blue:Gold to somewhat maintain value. Well when a player goes to make the jump from bronze to gold, the can have a level 6 gold weapon instantly by trading in all their blues. They now have a weapon that is significantly more powerful than the effort they have put in to date, and as a result they have also choked their entire variety. Which means that they have established a crutch situation for themselves and made it so that their team has to adapt to their play because they have no other options.

I dunno. I mean, you sorta have that situation now. 

I remember when the earth DLC came out...well, slightly before...I had played a bunch of gold matches and earned enough credits to buy a bunch of PSPs all at once. I got a bunch of characters I wanted and was able to max out several of the new items/weapons. The same thing could be achieved with zero effort by someone who dropped a couple hundred real world dollars on packs.

And hey, whatever, that's kool and the gang if you've got the cash. I kinda have to spend my real world money on food and the bills. And maybe if I had the extra loot and nothing else to spend it on, I might have explored that option.

But you're talking about effort and skill as if they are meant to hold some sort of singular merit; as if we're earning the weapons and characters and items we unlock entirely through gameplay. But the same can be achieved through real world spending, and that seems to me to diminish the value of skill and experience.

And when we add in the element of random chance, it becomes just as likely for a first day rookie to secure anUltra-rare as it is for a grizzled Platinum veteran. With the element of chance being so dominant in the process, it seems to me to invalidate the whole effort/reward relationship that you mention.

I also have always wondered at the value assigned to each of the packs, since you mention it. I would imagine that a system must have been devised to calculate how much each pack would be worth, But since item drops are as random as a computer can manage, and since no two gold items (for instance) are necessarily equal in merit or advantage, the system of assigning value to packs seems arbitrary.

I mean, I suppose it's nice to have a Gold Card drop so that I can alter the color of my Krogan Warlord's lights, but it doesn't approach the value of leveling up a Gold weapon. And...real talk: even weapons of the same rarity do not hold equal merit with each other. And that's not even taking into account the personal preferences or play-styles of the player.

I have no idea if two random silvers would equal one random gold; I'm just using it in my previous post to frame an idea. And while Explosive Ammo III may not have much value to me, it might suit the needs of some other player out there.

basically, my point here is that there's no accounting for taste. What may be of worth to one person may be worthless to another. A trade system may well benefit players in ways that cannot be measured exactly by BW. But if BW "taxed" every trade between players even a small amount, it seems on the face that this would add up. I dunno. I'm not a "run-the-numbers" kinda guy, though.

And consider also that players in other game systems do pay for cosmetic options that have zero impact on gameplay. Someone mentioned skins and so forth above. Greater options for the players would also mean greater design options for the devs. Every Asari Justicar has the same face and the same outfit. But what if there were a variety of faces that could be purchased? Or what if you could purchase a kick-ass helmet with a full-face visor for her?

I'm just saying, there could potentially be a lot of different options for paid content. And if the price point is kind enough, players would love to drop cash on it. This may have no bearing on the current store options. But hey...maybe for the next one, y'know?

[viper_veteran]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Do you know what a Skinner box is, OP?

B.F. Skinner was a psychologist who created this box that was used to dispense food to mice when they pressed a plunger.

He found that if he made it so they got food EVERY time they pressed the plunger, they got a moderate amount. Same for if it was very rare for them to get food.

However, he found that if they randomized the frequency of food, the mice would press the plunger far, far more often than if they KNEW when the food would come out. So that's a Skinner box: a random reward.

Really, it's the same idea as the lottery or the slot machines.

Yeah that is what I said in my post.

In the world of psychology it is also known as a Variable Rate of Reinforcement.

Companies use psychological techniques on us all the time . From marketing "must have" products to cliff hangers in our favourite TV series. They use the techniques because they work well at keeping us watching (or playing in this instance) and if we don't have the time to play anymore we can pay instead. Psychological techniques are a normal part of a consumers interaction with companies in our society.

Now excuse me I have to buy a PSP hopefully I'll get a Typhoon VIII

[ismeno]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

@Evil Mastered no idea what is going on with next mass effect, I am on Dragon Age

maybe this isn't the thread to ask such a thing but...
has anyone put some thought in making dragon age legends into an android app? seriuosly, this would be awesome...

[sobit]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

There is also a social aspect of it, that is a strong with randomization. Even though this is a co-op game there is a gentle competitive nature to it. I know during development I was the first in my group of friends to get a Revenant and was able to play it in such a way those around me wanted to get one and try it out. During that process another got a widow, and even though at the time all they wanted was the Revenant that I was using they fell for the Widow. So in their quest to get the gun they thought they wanted, they found something randomly that they ended up liking more. Whereas a straight progression system (buy what you want), would have lead to people using the same as me, but without the same joy that they found with their own thing.

the effect you are describing here lasted at most 100h for me. by then I had started optimizing and developed a feeling for what a "strong" (in my hands at least) weapon was and suddenly I was back to being dissappointed by 90% of the pack drops.

after all your explanations I agree you probably made the right decision, but the chances are still way too low, i.e. the time required to get a desired weapon to a decent level is far to big.

[The Mysterious Stranger]

I hope the next mass effect have a tf2 styled item system, because that one is great.

[121andrew]

I both love and hate the RNG.
I think it's a good way of letting players unlock characters and weapons over a long period of time, although sometimes some people are stuck with the same items for a while before the RNG dispenses something usable.

Like right now, there is little chance I'll get to play the AIU or use the CSMG, because so far they just haven't unlocked for me.
In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

[cap and gown]

121andrew wrote...

In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

The system would work 100% better just with these two suggestions implemented.

[Bryan Johnson]

cap and gown wrote...

121andrew wrote...

In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

The system would work 100% better just with these two suggestions implemented.

The current system doesnt give you repeat character cards, if you have fully unlocked a character

[DisturbedPsic0]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

121andrew wrote...

In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

The system would work 100% better just with these two suggestions implemented.

The current system doesnt give you repeat character cards, if you have fully unlocked a character

Except for base humans. Gotta love getting that 250k experience in my PSP's when everyone is at 20. Be nice if there was a way to only give you those cards for the classes that aren't at 20. No idea how feasible that is though.

[saxybeast418]

Tokenusername wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

If any of you haven't already, check this out:

http://www.penny-arc...le-games-part-1

Extra Credits is an awesome show that tackles all sorts of video game related topics.

This is a recent episode (the second part of this just aired today) that goes into the potential (and dangers) of the booster pack model. While it seems to mainly focus on free-to-play portable titles, it applies perfectly to ME3 multiplayer's upgrade system.

These don't really apply to MP. The discussion is about an RNG pack business model that requires purchase. MP has purchasing as only an option. These are sort of related to the topic at large, but not really this discussion.

I'd argue that this is fully applicable to ME3 MP. While some of the specifics are only applicable to free-to-play models, the most salient points about the appeal and power of a randomized collectible model are present in full force in ME3 multiplayer. 

Just because you have the option of either paying with your time or paying with real world money doesn't make ME3 MP's upgrade system any less of a collectible game. 

[cap and gown]

Just to follow up on 121andrew's idea, it would be nice to see not just weapon, character, and supply packs, but mod packs as well. You don't know how I rejoiced just to finally unlock my first piercing mod. Also, different levels of these packs, some for commons, some for uncommons, and some for rares. I may not know what mod/weapon/character I am going to get, but at least I would know I was purchasing something that was not going to give me an item totally unlike what I really want.

[Bryan Johnson]

DisturbedPsic0 wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

121andrew wrote...

In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

The system would work 100% better just with these two suggestions implemented.

The current system doesnt give you repeat character cards, if you have fully unlocked a character

Except for base humans. Gotta love getting that 250k experience in my PSP's when everyone is at 20. Be nice if there was a way to only give you those cards for the classes that aren't at 20. No idea how feasible that is though.

The 250k human was the compromise to those who wanted character cards to not be limited, for those that wanted to promote. The only thing you are "losing" in that slot is 1 time consumables. XP is also technically finished at level 20, it goes up to 10.5 million iirc when you are at level 20, mind you that doesnt make much difference in this case. 

[DisturbedPsic0]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

DisturbedPsic0 wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

121andrew wrote...

In the next game there should be a more specific RNG, like with the Reserves/Arsenal pack, as in you know you'll be getting a character for good, instead of it being totally random.

They should also do away with repeat character cards.
Nothing worse than spending 99k to get Asari Adept and Krogan Soldier cards.

The system would work 100% better just with these two suggestions implemented.

The current system doesnt give you repeat character cards, if you have fully unlocked a character

Except for base humans. Gotta love getting that 250k experience in my PSP's when everyone is at 20. Be nice if there was a way to only give you those cards for the classes that aren't at 20. No idea how feasible that is though.

The 250k human was the compromise to those who wanted character cards to not be limited, for those that wanted to promote. The only thing you are "losing" in that slot is 1 time consumables. XP is also technically finished at level 20, it goes up to 10.5 million iirc when you are at level 20, mind you that doesnt make much difference in this case. 

Oh I completely understand why they're there. I just don't like "losing" anything, even if it is 1 time consumables. I'm greedy like that

[BridgeBurner]

Pseudo random with good old unscrupulous extortion would have been better.

Random packs - low chance of getting stuff you want / need; low cost (in game currency or IRL money)

Specific item - Extortionately priced; pay through the nose (in game currency or IRL money) but get exactly what you need.

That way, people are happy. People can pay more for the exact items they want, or they can take the gamble and perhaps get lucky; or discover other weapons and kits they can enjoy as much instead.

EA is happy too, as either way the micro-transactions model fulfills itself.

Modifié par Annomander, 14 novembre 2013 - 04:38 .