170 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Yup. Though I could reinterpret my statement to mean the Dalish need to let go of the Dales, and become simply the Elvhen again. To look forward instead of clinging desperately to a past long gone.

[Vit246]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

NO. Its stops here right now.

[Shadow Fox]

Usergnome wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If you count all the individual elf characters, I suspect we would find many more friendly than unfriendly ones. Even Zathrian, while not a great person, didn't seem to have open contempt for non elven PCs. His flaws had more to do with his lust for revenge. Even some of the ones who are hostile later apologize and change, like the sentry for Zathrian's camp.

You can't fault Mithra (the sentry) for being "hostile". In fact, that wasn't even hostile. She told the outsiders to hold... And honestly, when 4 armored strangers approach your camp full of both warriors and family of course you're going to be extremely cautious.

Any human, and any dwarf would too. Even in the real world people are mistrustful like that by default in the same situation.

The problem with the Dalish is not their Xenophobia. Being mistrustful of humans will serve them well; twice before humans have betrayed and ruined them, and as long as the Chantry exists they will never get along. The real problem is how divided they are with the tribes, and how they can't just settle somewhere. They remind me of Quarians... Too stubborn to move forward and improve.

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

[iOnlySignIn]

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Evolution is not an option. It's a fact.

The Elves are doing such a great job at killing themselves that I doubt any external effort is needed.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Evolution is not an option. It's a fact.

The Elves are doing such a great job at killing themselves that I doubt any external effort is needed.

Hopefully my Inquisitor can reverse this trend that you claim to see.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...
Hopefully my Inquisitor can reverse this trend that you claim to see.

I'm quite interested to hear how you intend to change the outcome of an elf breeding with a non-elf.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

[Vit246]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

Double Standards. And most of everybody is "Screw You, Elves!"

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Hopefully my Inquisitor can reverse this trend that you claim to see.

I'm quite interested to hear how you intend to change the outcome of an elf breeding with a non-elf.

The same as the reason that outcome probably exists to begin with: magic

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Hardly an Elven only thing, and even then if the battle looked to be lost you can't blame them for not throwing their forces into a burning house. That the battle was won does not mean it looked that way.

Really, if they were going to just let humanity fend for themselves, why the hell would they have marched their army from Halamshiral to Montsimmard's area, when at least two other cities separate the two?

They could've just stayed at home if they wanted to let humanity fend for itself.

[duckley]

Oh my... where is the love?

[Dave of Canada]

duckley wrote...

Oh my... where is the love?

Dead. Along with the elves.

[Reaverwind]

The problem with the Dalish is they're so trapped in the past that they can't move forward.

[Shadow Fox]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

[Xilizhra]

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

[Reaverwind]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

May have antagonised the humans? I don't know about you, but last I checked, most nations don't react all that well to a full-scale invasion. 

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Hardly an Elven only thing, and even then if the battle looked to be lost you can't blame them for not throwing their forces into a burning house. That the battle was won does not mean it looked that way.

Really, if they were going to just let humanity fend for themselves, why the hell would they have marched their army from Halamshiral to Montsimmard's area, when at least two other cities separate the two?

They could've just stayed at home if they wanted to let humanity fend for itself.

Yet I don't see people making excuses for the other factions who do it or acting like they're faultless.

Except they just stood there and watched it burn instead of you know trying to help.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

The attitude towards city elves is not universal among the Dalish. Just like the City Elves beliefs about the Dalish savagary are not universal among all of the alienages.

The Dalish do have a lot of reasons to be angry at humanity and many of their problems are the fault of others. I also don't think that the complete destruction of the Dales can be justified even with the sacks of Montismmard and Val Royeaux.

The problem is that nearly every time this debate comes up on the forums, it appears to be arguments between the postion that elves must always be the innocent victims in every circumtance of dealing with humans or that elves are always at fault for every problem. I would have to believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

A lot of the arugments about the war between Orlais and the Dales seems to boil down to people trying to come up with justifcations (real or not) for either side's cause. As if one of them needed to be the good guys of the story. In truth I would suspect it was a war between two sides, both of which behaved in a somewhat morally dubious fashion, and in the end one side won.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 04:38 .

[Shadow Fox]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

The attitude towards city elves is not universal among the Dalish. Just like the City Elves beliefs about the Dalish savagary are not universal among all of the alienages.

The Dalish do have a lot of reasons to be angry at humanity and many of their problems are the fault of others. I also don't think that the complete destruction of the Dales can be justified even with the sacks of Montismmard and Val Royeaux.

The problem is that nearly every time this debate comes up on the forums, it appears to be arguments between the postion that elves must always be the innocent victims in every circumtance of dealing with humans or that elves are always at fault for every problem. I would have to believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

A lot of the arugments about the war between Orlais and the Dales seems to boil down to people trying to come up with justifcations (real or not) for either side's cause. As if one of them needed to be the good guys of the story. In truth I would suspect it was a war between two sides, both of which behaved in a somewhat morally dubious fashion, and in the end one side won.

That's why I said the Dalish we've met:P

And humanity has reasons to be angry at the Dalish,fair enough,Why not the Dalish tried to destroy Orlais?

Pretty much.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

Where would you suggest?

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yet I don't see people making excuses for the other factions who do it or acting like they're faultless.

Well, I do, because I see this situation and Loghain's situation at Ostagar as being pretty much the same. They decided not to join a battle that looked hopeless (and in Loghain's case, it was hopeless) and should not be blamed for it.

Except they just stood there and watched it burn instead of you know trying to help.

....

If they tried to help, they would've been charging into a battle that looked hopeless. I said just because a battle can be won doesn't mean it always appears that way.

Hindsight is 20/20 after all. But at the time, it could've looked like a doomed battle even if they charged or, if they had, resulted in a Pyrrhic victory.

I still maintain that if they wanted to let humanity die, they could've done so without mobilizing their army and marching them through Orlesian lands and passing two cities (at least!) on the way to Montsimmard.

And as I recall, they were "reputed" to have stood by.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Montismmard was said to be "nearby." I suspect at the time it would have been close to the border. The Dales didn't seem to help against the Blight during the rest of the 45 more years it lasted either.

My theory is if they marched an army into Orlesian territory it was to guard their own border and make sure the darkspawn didn't spread into their own territory.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Are we talking about the Dalish? Because it's not right to say they're disenfranchised. They're entirely outside of society. 

Not that I disagree with (what I think is) your point but I think the terminology is not right. 

They're also not technically without land - even as nomads - unless you mean legally recognized ownership via the rest of Thedas. 

The Dalish do seem to have a functional society and despite their somewhat distasteful views (in my view) I think we should admire what they did with developing their nomadic life. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Are we talking about the Dalish? Because it's not right to say they're disenfranchised. They're entirely outside of society. 

Not that I disagree with (what I think is) your point but I think the terminology is not right. 

They're also not technically without land - even as nomads - unless you mean legally recognized ownership via the rest of Thedas. 

The Dalish do seem to have a functional society and despite their somewhat distasteful views (in my view) I think we should admire what they did with developing their nomadic life. 

It's a clever accomplishment, but most of them want more out of life than that.